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Being able to defeat a single monster chosen by the opposite side of the debate has got to count for something AND simplifies the debate. Sometimes, people make the mistake of creating trials so complicated in the name of realism that they end up shooting themselves in the foot and, rather than making headway, they start arguing about the parameters of the trial.Being able to be beat a single monster isn't meaningful. Being able to create a build that can be competitive against many things, is.I hate the custom built, tightly-focused, uber min-maxed build used to prove that X is god in one narrow trick.
For that reason, I wanted to have a specific monster be named, so that I could provide several general build tactics that might beat that monster.
It counts for nothing, because it is the opposite of how you play the game.
You make the character to deal with whatever monsters might come, not the other way around.
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Being able to defeat a single monster chosen by the opposite side of the debate has got to count for something AND simplifies the debate. Sometimes, people make the mistake of creating trials so complicated in the name of realism that they end up shooting themselves in the foot and, rather than making headway, they start arguing about the parameters of the trial.
It doesn't count for much if you build a monk to counter a specific monster, as you can just target that one monster's weakness. How about someone builds a well rounded 10th-12th level monk, and then a random appropriate CR monster is chosen.
Using SLA to fuel Arcane Strike still feel cheesy as f+%@ IMO, but the designers seem to think it's okay, so there's that. Using the game's best race for martial classes doesn't strengths his point either, but I won't complain about that, although it'd be more convincing if it were a half-elf or half-orc.
Using Vows really hurts his argument, though, IMHO. Monk vows are terrible and not worth the trade-off in any situation other than build showcasing. Arthantos also seems to assume he'll be able to spend Ki every round, but Ki is not nearly as plentiful as Rage or Bardic Performance.
It still lacks a decent ranged weapon.
All in all, not a bad build, but not a very convincing one either...
BTW.. It's really sad that Monks are not automatically proficient with Sansetsukon. :(
I think this is a more realistic Monk build... It's just moderately optimized, doesn't depend on any overly specific item (other than the AoMF, of course, but there is no avoiding that if you want to fight unarmed) and keeps the Monk flavor mostly intact.
Male Half-Orc Monk (Qinggong Monk) 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 19, flat-footed 23 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +4 natural*, +1 deflection) (*already Includes Barkskin)
hp 88 (10d8+40)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +12; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Bite (Toothy) +15 (1d4+11/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d10+12/19-20/x2) o(+17/+17/+12/+12 with FoB)
Ranged Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +11/+6 (1d2+6/x2) (+12/+12/+7/+7 with FoB)and
. . Masterwork Silver Shuriken +11/+6 (1d2+5/x2) (+12/+12/+7/+7 with FoB)
Special Attacks ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities
. . —Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki)
. . —Restoration (self only, 2 Ki)
. . —Scorching Ray (2 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Tripping); CMD 32 (34 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Style, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 18), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+28 jump), Escape Artist +16, Intimidate +0, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +16; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ ac bonus +5, fast movement (+30'), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves; Other Gear Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Silver Shuriken (50), Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of armor +3, Cloak of resistance +2, Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 350 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Restoration (self only, 2 Ki) (Sp) Self only. Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Scorching Ray (2 Ki) (Sp) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
I grabbed Toughness because I wasn't sure what feat to take at 1st level. But I suppose I could have taken Combat Reflexes instead and used the bonus feat to grab another maneuver feat.
Option 2:
Give monks a caster level on par with a magus
What would you think of the monk as a psychic warrior archetype, trading most of the proficiencies and the paths for his regular abilities? I'm thinking if making this change for a game I am planning.
That or a soulknife version, I guess, but the soulknife is more about having a fancy weapon than doing crazy stunts with your ki, psychics, inner strength or whatever you want to call it.
I've heard of many people having excellent luck with the 3.5 Monk(!) getting psychic warrior power progression stapled to it.
It helped that in 3.5 you could do it with the Tashalatora feat, though a little obscure, it meant you could do it with RAW. There's also Ashiel's Monk here with psionic powers. There is a Psychic Warrior Archetype for pathfinder who happens to specialize in unarmed combat.
These NPCs know nothing of "class" which is a meta-game concept.All I'm seeing are excuses. NPCs are not stupid or ignorant. They may not be able to tell the difference between a barbarian and the viking fighter archetype, but all the mechanics that comprise classes reflect real differences in the capabilities of different characters.
Erik McMerchant may not call a barbarian a barbarian, but he will categorize him as someone who uses an energy intensive style of combat under some category in his mind and if he's been running caravans with mercenary escorts for a while will probably have learned that he resists magic and may exhibit individual supernatural abilities when in a rage. He can tell the difference between this and a more conservative fighter or ranger. He will even be able to distinguish between a more rigorously trained fighter and a less rigorously trained warrior, though he'll probably call them by different names too
If there are monasteries around he'll know what kinds of monks they turn out as hiring mercenaries is part of his business. If there aren't you're just some schlub who can't afford weapons and armor. If you're extremely convincing you might be able to get him to let you give a demonstration.
Eric McMerchant would know nothing of the sort.
So, Thor Bonegnasher (who may or may not have the Barbarian class) resisted the curses of the dread Necromancer Tim (who may or may not be a Necromancy Wizard specialist). Anyone can resist magic. Maybe Thor Bonegnasher can resist magic better than other people, or maybe that's just ignorant gossip.
Real World Eric McMerchant would call Thor Bonegnasher "a Berserker" or "Úlfhéðnar", and would attribute him near-divine powers of pain suppresion, invulnerability to wounds from fire or iron, the strength of a bear, and a inner ferocity that made him unstopable in combat. And that was in real world, where Thor Bonegnasher didn't, in fact, possess any real near-magic powers.
So, if people attribute magic powers to Thor Bonegnasher when he doesn't actually have any magic powers, how are those people suppossed to tell whether Thor Bonegnasher is a Fighter or Barbarian - particularly since those people have never seen the rulebook and know mostly only rumors about Thor and his buddy Flynt McPike?
Those people haven't read the rulebook, but they live in a world where some people have certain abilities. They might not have read the rulebook, but they know certain kind of warriors are able to move in armor as if it were simple cloth (7th level fighters) while others are able to enter in a furious trance and gain the strength of a bear (barbarians). Because in they world, that thing exists, and is very real. Exactly like they understand that some people is able to launch fireballs (wizards) while others are able to transform into animals (druids) even if they don't have a rulebook that say so. And it's not weird to suppose that they catalogue those people in groups, as they did in real world (where "berserkers" were a different kind of trance-warrior than Úlfhéðnar and witches were a different kind of magic-user than warlocks).
Maybe they wouldn't call those two guys applying for the job "a barbarian" and "a monk". Maybe they'd call them "Úlfhéðnar" and "Shaolin". Or "berserker" and "yamabushi". Sure, they won't say "he's 6th level". But they do know they have different abilities (because other people with those abilities exist in their world), and they know there is some kind of "rank" among them, because some of those "shaolin" or "yamabushi" or "weird bald guy in an orange robe" can slow-fall, and some other can't, and some of them are immune to poison while others aren't. I'm pretty sure they can tell the difference between that barbarian guy, whose skin become tougher, grow claws, and can pounce like a tiger, from that other barbarian guy who grow barbs from his body. Wouldn't you be able to tell the difference?
And given the fact they *can* tell the difference between a guy who grow claws, can pounce and have rhino-like skin and some other guy who leaps a lot, can stun people and fall from heights without taking damage, it's quite probable that the caravan guy hiring bodyguards would select the ones who he feels have better abilities to the success of his mission. In the case of Barbarians, not only they are much more resistant to magic... they can litterally EAT magic, and *dispel* spells and magical effects with a hit of their sword. That's a measurable, unique effect that some kind of "warriors" can do (namely, barbarians with the proper rage power), and some others can't (for example, monks).
Why are we talking about NPCs view of PCs? That has very little to do with class balance I'd think, or at least discussing how real life people perceive the monk and the merits of the monk class itself.
They might not have read the rulebook, but they know certain kind of warriors are able to move in armor as if it were simple cloth (7th level fighters) while others are able to enter in a furious trance and gain the strength of a bear (barbarians).Farmer Pete is not going to be able to tell whether Flynt McPike can move in armor because of a class ability or because McPike happens to have uncommon agility or because McPike has some magic which makes it possible.
What does Farmer Pete think about the fact Thor Bonegnasher can grow claws, fur and pounce when he gets angry, becomes strong enough to bend metal bars, and his skin is almost invulnerable to small daggers and he can dispel a Wall of Fire with a swing of his blade?
In addition to that, regardless of how Thor Bonegnasher manage to do that, the fact is: he can do it, and Johny McLittlegrasshopper can't.
Why are we talking about NPCs view of PCs? That has very little to do with class balance I'd think, or at least discussing how real life people perceive the monk and the merits of the monk class itself.
Actually, you are right. We are discussing a red herring.
I guess we are waiting to see the build that Justin Rocket was going to post.
Assuming Farmer Pete personally saw Thor Bonegnasher do this and its not just gossip, Farmer Pete might think it is some sort of magic related to one of Thor's previous adventures, or he might that Thor's tribe are part of an exotic race, or part of a spiritual heritage, or he might think its due to Thor having Sorcerous blood, or something else. He won't blame it on class, because he has no idea what that is.
Who cares what Farmer Pete thinks though? Obviously NPCs don't look at your character class and feats. The NPC might not blame anything on the class, but we as players do take a view of that sort of thing, especially at creation and looking at what we want to make. A good way to get a preview is to look at class abilities and a description about what the class does, and if its not up to snuff or takes a lot of system mastery to actually accomplish what it advertises that just sucks. Monk is a good example of that, where you grab things like dragon style to make up for lower unarmed damage, you might reduce mad with agile, you take archetypes and trade out the crap for something better. Jump through hoops, and even then pre errata they had other issues.
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Assuming Farmer Pete personally saw Thor Bonegnasher do this and its not just gossip, Farmer Pete might think it is some sort of magic related to one of Thor's previous adventures, or he might that Thor's tribe are part of an exotic race, or part of a spiritual heritage, or he might think its due to Thor having Sorcerous blood, or something else. He won't blame it on class, because he has no idea what that is.
If Pete saw Thor in X Century killing half a dozen men while fighting barechested, with a great strength and ignoring pain, he'll say that's because he is a Berserker or Úlfhéðnar. He won't blame it on a "class", but he'll blame it on a "type of warrior". Specially because *several* people through the world can do it, and they are from different tribes, different heritages and have different blood. Even different races (a halfling barbarian or dwarven barbarian can have beast totem, pounce and spell sunder too)
And again, it doesn't matter if the caravan owner thinks Thor can do it because he is touched by the gods or because he ate too much spinach. The truth is, Thor can do it, and Mr Littlegrashopper can't. And that's what is important to the caravan owner. And that's what started this subplot in the thread.
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Monks have their good points, but they have some glaring weaknesses. A combat class (and whatever else it is, the monk has no way of influencing a conflict save combat, so it's a combat class) that cannot take the offence effectively is a lame duck no matter what defensive features it has.
The monk is a great sidekick, when everyone else is playing a hero. It has great flavour, but poor mechanics. Even the monk archetypes that are "good" are only really "good in comparison to the core monk," they are "meh" compared to other classes that fill their niche better.
I really love monks, I really want to play a kick-ass martial artist and philosopher-warrior with inner strength and drive, but I have to admit they are a weak class that just does not deliver this. Even the devs have said they are a weak class. I want a better monk, it wouldn't take much to make it a little effective, just enough to get onto the same playing field as the other martial classes.
I've built many monks, compared them with many monsters, and compared how other classes consistently outperform the monk against the same monsters. I don't need to repeat it.
I've heard of many people having excellent luck with the 3.5 Monk(!) getting psychic warrior power progression stapled to it. I might even prefer that over the PF monk. I had also wanted to try stapling the Miniatures Handbook Healer class to the Monk and see how that would work for a combat medic.
It's not finished. Going to add more NPCs and probably more monk secrets but it's definitely playable as my players have been playing it for quite a while since it reached v1.0. ^__^
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12th is a good level. 20th level builds are a bit irrelevant for most part. 12 is the top level in PFS, and it's a level that most, if not all, AP have adventures for.Name a level. Note that I don't have Hero Builder (I have the trial, but it doesn't use archetypes), so I have to do it all manually. It'll take some time.I hate the custom built, tightly-focused, uber min-maxed build used to prove that X is god in one narrow trick.What's stopping you from making a versatile well-rounded build, then? No one is asking you to make a Monk who is the best at everything and a little more.I've been working on gear for a 20th level monk for almost an hour now. So, now a 12th?
I'm going to wait until you all agree on a level.
15th; And if your DM says otherwise, then this doesn't apply to you at all.
Just my 2 cents on 20th level builds, but everyone builds them at max wbl. As if leveling to 20 istantly drops gold in your pocket.
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I think its odd that anyone would argue against a monk having a full BAB.
I mean... they already get a de facto full BAB when flurrying and for CMB. it isn't like this would be some huge buff. Really it would apply primarily to feat requirements, which would make sense for a supposed martial artist or to standard action attacks which would make sense for a supposedly mobile class.
A lot of monk features just fall flat as soon as you compare them to another martial class. Unarmed strike damage at level 13 is effectively +3.5 dmg per hit. For a fighter weapon training at 13 is +3 to hit and damage.
Flurry is just TWF feats plus double slice... the only difference is that a monk can get full power attack on his offhand strikes... but the monk has a slower PA progression so this isn't anything to write home about.
The monk gets wisdom to AC and CMD as well as a static class bonus... but as far as AC goesthis ddoesn't at all make up for the lack of armor.
Style feats are cool but not in any way monk specific.
So the monk, for the most part, has abilities that are immediately offset by their own drawbacks. They becone non-bonuses. This is pretty much what a trap option is.
Just my 2 cents on 20th level builds, but everyone builds them at max wbl. As if leveling to 20 istantly drops gold in your pocket.You mean as if they spent all of 19th level gaining it? Because I'm pretty sure the WBL table is what you're supposed to have when you reach a level, not when you leave it.
wbl is a rough estimate of what a character starting at that level should get. People forget that wbl includes the value of all your gear leading up to it. Making a character AT 20th level lends itself more versatility with equipment than leveling a character up TO level 20. Making a character at level 20 always seems to assume you are getting all your equipment hand crafted by a buddy for half price too. I simply prefer level by level builds.
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I absolutely love monks.
The only downside I see to the monk is their weaker attack compared to the other melee classes.
Everything else, the insane AC, speed, saving throws, physical abilities and immunities, style feats, equal a character that is a real survivor.
The Monk is what? Hitting for less damage than every other Full BAB class in the Core book? So he's not "The Killer." He's not "The Tank."
He's not "The Shield of the Party" like a Paladin or Fighter or even a tough Barbarian would be. There is no mechanic to make people focus on him in this game. So he's..."The Survivor?"So the Core 4 and the 5th man is something like...
Full BAB/"Fighter"
Full Arcane/"Wizard"
Full Divine/"Cleric"
Roguish character/"Rogue"
Versatile "5th Man"/
Ranger, Inquisitor, Bard, Druid, Summoner, something like that.And the Monk is what? "Survivor?"
There isn't a reliable mechanic to make people focus on you regardless.
Also, not so long ago I've played a monk as the party "tank"... and what a tank he was!
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Also, not so long ago I've played a monk as the party "tank"... and what a tank he was!
Did he come with treads and dual mounted rocket launchers?
Also, not so long ago I've played a monk as the party "tank"... and what a tank he was!Did he come with treads and dual mounted rocket launchers?
And a heavy machine gun on top of it, indeed.
It is early in my build so far, but I'm noticing that the average CR11 monster CMD is about 33. I'm pretty confident I can hit that. Those monsters with higher CMDs tend to have really bad will saves, which means they are vulnerable to Touch of Serenity.
So far, my earlier assertion that the monk's flexibility of attack methods (both in which monster to attack and in how to attack that monster (ie. damage, stun, trip, etc.)) is what keeps the monk a strong contender is being reinforced.
But, like I said it is early in the build yet. So, we'll see.
Monk lvl 11 cmb
11 from lvlMaybe 5 from a stat? Assuming finesse or agile maneuvers?
4 from specializing with two feats
2 from aomf?
That gives you a 50% chance.
Not exactly good.
Cmd is good for a monk... cmd is tough
Take a grapple barb
11 from bab
Say same main stat then add rage so 8
Same 2 feats for 4
HI've totem for 3
Reckless abandon for 3
Brawler armor for 2
So that is +31 aka 90%
Not to mention there's a core rage power that lets you add your barbarian level to your CMB. Usable 1/rage, but there are many ways to rage cycle, some pre-6th level.
Strength Surge (Ex): The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to her Combat Maneuver Defense when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her. This power is used as an immediate action. This power can only be used once per rage.
^ This power makes barbarians KINGS of combat maneuvers. Combos very nicely with:
Spell Sunder (Su): Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature's CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled. A barbarian must have the witch hunter rage power and be at least 6th level before selecting this rage power.
Bards have been awesome since 3.5. They do virtually everything moderately well. I tore apart a 10th level monk with a bard using a light short sword and fighting with a free hand (without crane style) for casting spells. She murdered him in a mock battle to make a point, and then turned around and had plenty of juice to turn the party into the four horsemen with her bardic music, loaded with skills with goofy high modifiers so she didn't have to waste spells on the mundane stuff, and she had done basically no buffing at all for the party though she had access to some amazing spells for it.
She was also quite competent at ranged combat since bardic music adds a lot of +hit and +damage, heroism adds to damage, arcane strike adds to damage, her strength score added to damage, etc. Her AC was awesome since she could craft her own gear and cast in light armor, and she had stuff like mirror image or greater invisibility to fall back on.
During the mock battle the monk couldn't hit her and she tore him apart in melee. When she cast greater invisibility it was all over since the monk's effective AC plummeted into the ground like a dying eagle, allowing her to full attack him with her little short sword and land virtually every hit she threw out.
Bards were badass in 3.5 and they're even stronger in Pathfinder. It's fortunate that we don't have stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration because it would just be a sick joke at that point.