Hi,
One of my player has an eidolon (plenty of natural attacks then) which has 2 feats.
Power attack
And touche
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/combat-fea ts/touche-combat
from Genius.
Touché (Combat)
You can make a quick, accurate attack at
the expense of hitting power.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus
+1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1
penalty to all weapon damage and combat
maneuver checks (to a minimum of 0) to
gain a +1 bonus to all melee weapon attack
rolls. This bonus to attack rolls is increased to
by an additional +1 if you are fighting with
a one-handed or light weapon in one hand,
and have nothing in your other hand. When
your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every
4 points thereafter, the penalty increased by
–1 and the bonus to attacks increases by +1.
You must choose to use this feat before
making any attack rolls, and its effects last
until your nest turn. The bonus does not
apply to touch attacks or effects that do not
deal hit point damage.
Since he's got natural attacks (considered as light then) he can use touche with a +4 to hit, -2 to dmg (Eidolon has a BAB of 6)
Power attack gives -2 to hit and +4 to dmg
If both combined it gives +2 to hit and +2dmg with all attacks (primary ones) and +2 to hit and +0 dmg with secondary attacks.
I have trouble visualising a "touché" combined with a power attack, but well may be it's just me.
Is it cheesy? Knowing that at lvl 20 he then gets +5 to hit and +5 dmg for all his primary attacks.
One could argue that he needs an empty hand but since it's all natural attacks...
I am inclined to agree, Longhorn. The feats seem intended to be opposite alternatives of each other. Kind of like a Slow spell and a Haste spell (as a reference to their opposing natures and not as a comparison of spells to feats).
If a PC were to try and use them together I would rule the net effect to be +0 to hit and +0 to damage.
Just my $.02,
Weslocke
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hmm. One could make the argument that he's saying his claws count as a light wepaon in one hand, but his claws in the other hand count as empty? It certainly seems the intent of Touche is not to be used with TWF. Although I suppose it could be used by a "normal" person with unarmed strikes in the off hand.
It seems odd to have a feat that is the opposite of Power Attack, yet doesn't actually cancel PA's bonuses. I think you're running up against a feat interaction that was unintended by the designers. It's well within your rights to houserule "one or the other, but not both."
One thing you seem to be misreading is that the light wepaon bonus of Touche is not +2 for -1; it's +x+1 for -x. Since Power Attack is -x for +2x, you end up with a +1 to hit, +x damage when using both. Still a bit strong for two feats IMO.
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It's third-party, so there really isn't an official way to rule this.
If it wasn't third-party, then the way it's worded, you can do both at once.
I'm not fond of using "fluff" to figure out rules, but this time I would.
Power Attack says:
"You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength."
Touche says:
"You can make a quick, accurate attack at
the expense of hitting power."
Power Attack sacrifices accuracy for power, Touche sacrifice power for accuracy. They are opposites. Based on that, I would say that a character could have both, but on any particular attack they have to decide which one to use; they can't use both.
That might not be RAW. By RAW, I see no reason why they could not use both. It does require them to use two feats to get this bonus, so at least there is a price for this cheese, but, especially at high levels, the combined benefits are far more useful than any two other "numerical bonus" feats I can think of, which makes it look imbalanced and therefore undesirable (and cheesy).
(then again, I think eidolons and by extension, summoners, are cheesy to begin with, but that's a personal opinion - in any case, why not compound eidolon cheese with Touche cheese?)
OK thanks everyone for your feedback.
I think I'm going to rule out that you can't do both. Otherwise I think EVERY monster with natural attacks would have those feats before anything else.
That's fair. I doubt Paizo would ever publish a feat with the provided text--at least, not intentionally.
It's third-party, so there really isn't an official way to rule this.
If it wasn't third-party, then the way it's worded, you can do both at once.
Someone from super genius could.