Ultimate Campaign has this interesting statement:
"If you exploit your cohort, you'll quickly find your Leadership score shrinking away. Although this doesn't change the cohort's level, the cohort can't gain levels until your Leadership score allows for a level increase, so if you're a poor leader, you must wait longer for your cohort to level up. In extreme cases, the cohort might abandon you, and you'll have to recruit a new cohort."
According to the above, the maximum level that a player character's cohort can advance to is set by his Leadership score on the Leadership feat chart. Furthermore, this does not seem to be presented as a new rule but as a restatement of the existing rules.
However, the Core Rulebok has this:
"Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself....
<irrelevant material snipped>
"If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level."
In the case where a player character's level minus 2 is higher than the cohort level for his Leadership score on the chart, we have a contradiction, as the Core Rulebook makes no mention of the chart's maximum cohort level for cohort advancement (just for recruiting). It is also not clear whether anything in the Ultimate Campaign statement applies if you are not exploiting or otherwise mistreating your cohort.
For a charismatic player character who is an excellent leader, the problem crops up at 20th level, when the level minus 2 rule would let the cohort advance to 18th level but the Leadership chart would not because it tops out at 17th level. The problem could crop up earlier if the player character does anything that reduces his Leadership score even if it does not involve mistreating his cohort.
So -- was the intention here to apply a new general level limit on cohort advancement, or just a penalty on player characters who mistreat their cohorts?
The leadership feat and the table listed with shows the cohort level as determined by your leadership score. This is the maximum level the cohort can be at that leadership score.
There is also another condition imposed which says that a cohorts level can never be greater than your level -2. This is to prevent high charisma characters from attracting a cohort who could possibly be higher level than they are based on their leadership score.
There is no contradiction. Both rules apply at all times, whatever the lower level allowed by either rules is what you're allowed to have. It is a deliberate feature of cohorts to keep them from usurping actual player roles and game focus. Your feat benefit shouldn't be as strong or stronger than other players.
The contradiction is in the fact that the Core Rulebook definition of the the table limit for maximum cohort level only mentions "attracting" the cohort, not advancing him. The limitation of cohort level to no higher than player character level minus 2 is specifically mentioned for both purposes (attracting and advancement).
In the absence of the rule from Ultimate Campaign, would anyone see any reason to limit cohort advancement to the limit on the table if it is lower than character level minus 2? The Ultimate Campaign rule looks like a rule change because in the absence of that rule there seems to be no reason to limit cohort advancement by the Leadership table. Furthermore, it is given in the context of abusing cohorts, so it is unclear whether the GM should apply it in all cases or just when the player character's Leadership score drops because of his abuse of the cohort.
David Knott, In the CRB advancing the cohort is maxed out to Level-2. The rules you quoted state this (in a less clear way) when they state that if leveling the cohort would bring him to level-1 he cannot level.
The rules in Ultimate campaign do not contradict the CRB, they add to it by stating that if your leadership score plummets you cannot advance your cohort above the maximum allowed for attracting a cohort.
Frankly, as a GM, I would be even more harsh. If your leadership score plummeted to a level where you could not attract a cohort of that level I would have your cohort leave altogether. Then you can find a new cohort of the appropriate level.
- Gauss
The core rulebook is not as precise as it should be, but the restatement of the rules in Ultimate Campaign are just that: a restatement of the intent. The limit was always meant to be there.
The OP is referring to Ultimate Campaign not Ultimate Combat.
The information should be in the PRD if you don't have either.
I believe the maximum cohort level is equal to your leadership score, with a limit equal to your level -2. So if your leadership score is less than your level -2, that becomes the limit. If your leadership score is higher than your level -2, than your cohort is limited to your level -2.
Edited above
Your leadership score exceeds your level -2, so the maximum for your cohort is your level -2.
14th level.
this should link to PRD
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/compani ons.html
advancing companions
cohorts
The mount should not count for determining max cohort level that they can attain, just attracting a new one.
If your CHA drops, your leadership drops.
If you have any prerequisites for your leadership bonuses, like feats, traits, or talents, if you fail to meet those prerequisites you lose the use of the bonus.
I don't know for sure, but I would assume that negative levels would also apply.
I haven't seen anything in this thread that changes anything in the CRB.
In the CRB it never says that you Leadership Score has anything to do with your cohort gaining levels, it only states that it has to do with ATTRACTING a cohort.
Attracting a cohort means: finding and gaining a cohort, not keeping the cohort.
Quoting the SRD (bolding the relevant sections:
This is the only section in the SRD about cohort level. It never says anywhere that your Leadership Score has anything to do with the level of the cohort after he joins the group. That is why I am wondering if the information in Ultimate Campaign should be considered optional.Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level (see Creating NPCs). A cohort can be of any race or class. The cohort's alignment may not be opposed to your alignment on either the law/chaos or good/evil axis, and you take a –1 penalty to your Leadership score if you recruit a cohort of an alignment different from your own.
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
This is probably Paizo's intent (like a 90%ish chance of it) because the leadership chart caps out at 17th level, which happens to be more than 2 levels lower than 20th. I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to be able to get an 18th level cohort.
This is the relevant sentence in Leadership;
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
The maximum amount of xp that a cohort can earn places him 1 xp short of your level -1, or in other words your level -2.
Your leadership score really only applies if it would result in a number that is less than your level -2.
In your own post, the line above that refers to advancing the cohort. Only the first sentence refers to gaining a cohort. The second sentence refers to equipping him. Then his race & class, then his alignment.
This is the relevant sentence in Leadership;
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
The maximum amount of xp that a cohort can earn places him 1 xp short of your level -1, or in other words your level -2.
Your leadership score really only applies if it would result in a number that is less than your level -2.
Explain the basis of this? Because using the text from the Leadership feat that is not RAW. Unless I'm missing something really obvious.
Reread the previous bolded section, it's right there where it says 1 less......
I've always understood it as thus:
1) Your Leadership Score determines what level your Cohort has at introduction
2) Your Cohort can always gain XP and go over its introductory level, up to a maximum of your Character Level -2.
3) Should your Leadership score ever drop low enough, due to mistreatment of a Cohort, that the listed Cohort Level is lower than your Cohort's current level, your Cohort cannot gain ANY levels until you've raised your Leadership score back to its previous point
So, basically, if you're a lv19 Character, you're a douche to your lv17 Cohort, and your Leadership score falls from 24 to 23 or less, your Cohort stops gaining XP until your Leadership score rises to 24 or higher.
That's probably more up-to-interpretation than other things, however, since Leadership is one of the more controversial feats in the game anyway.
Moral of the story, kids - DON'T be a jerk to your Trusty Lieutenant, for he is your Trusty Lieutenant, and you don't want suffer a gigantic rules-induced headache from your jerkiness.
Reread the previous bolded section, it's right there where it says 1 less......
I was talking about the last line (Your leadership score really only applies if it would result in a number that is less than your level -2), sorry for being ambiguous.
cohort maxes out at level -2, but only 1 xp short of level -1.
Think of leadership score being the lower limit, and your level -2 being the upper limit.
As I said before, 14.
Your PC is 16th level -2 = 14th, but he can gain all but 1 xp needed to reach 15th.
That's RAW, not my opinion.
In the above examples, if your leadership score is 24, you would need to be such a jerk that you've reduced it to 14 to it from advancing.
Thank you chbgraphicarts, that is what I was trying to explain.
I do have a question though:
When YOU consider this:
So, basically, if you're a lv19 Character, you're a douche to your lv17 Cohort, and your Leadership score falls from 24 to 23 or less, your Cohort stops gaining XP until your Leadership score rises to 24 or higher.How do you factor in temporary losses to Charisma or level (including permanent until cured, and permanent until duration ends effects.)
Your cohort is not going to lose levels. He just can't gain any more levels until you have a certain charisma score.<---This assumes we are still discussing the book rules.
16.
Level -2 is the MAXIMUM.
Mount is irrelevant when determining max level cohort can gain.
Leadership score is only relevant if the result would be something equivalent to level -3, level -4, etc....
I believe you are looking at what score you need to RECRUIT a cohort of that level.
Advancing a cohort is different.
Table 5-2: Leadership
CRB page 129, is used only for recruiting cohorts & followers.
So an 18th level PC who has a Leadership score of 22 can recruit a 15th level cohort.
He can do this to replace his previous 16th level cohort who died.
This new cohort can earn xp that would raise him to 16th level, even if the PC does a bunch of crap that lowers his Leadership score down to 16.
I can't find anything in Ultimate Campaign or the CRB about an 18th level PC with a Leadership score of 22 gaining a cohort and being limited to a max of 14th level.
Raising one's Leadership score from 22 to 23 is irrelevant unless your PC is level 25!
They are most likely referring specifically to a Leadership score that is several points below the PC's level.
For example; an 18th level PC has a Leadership score of 22, and he has a 14th level cohort.
Said PC is a jerk and does many things that result in his Leadership score being reduced to 14.
Said cohort has now earned enough xp to advance to 15th level, but he can't because the PC has a Leadership score of only 14.
Now, if said PC does something to raise his Leadership score to 15, also said cohort can now advance to 15th level.
This is all assuming the PC remains 18th level, however he could raise his Leadership score to 15 by advancing to 19th level.
Also the last sentence in the Leadership feat says;
Don't consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience points on their own.
That would include using the modifiers for the table.
I agree that the cohort gains levels via XP, but I'd never considered before whether the "Cohort Level" on the chart might be a limit for advancing as well attracting the cohort. If the advice in Ultimate Campaign really means that you can't advance your cohort beyond the level listed on the Leadership chart that might be sort of interesting.
PCs with fairly average Charisma might get diminishing returns from Leadership as they leveled up unless they spent a lot of time and effort earning bonuses for fairness and generosity, great renown, and special power. Even then the cohort would begin to fall behind as the PCs reached the highest levels of experience.
Maybe this was an intentional change to curb the power of Leadership a bit and require greater investment from PC leaders to keep from falling behind. Headbands of Charisma and Rods of Splendor might become even nicer items for leaders to have. On the other hand, maybe something has been misunderstood here.
Devilkiller, unless your PC has a CHA of 5, (which would give you a base Leadership score of level -3) there should not be any problem of maintaining your cohort at 2 levels below your PC. Unless of course, your PC works at gathering negative Leadership modifiers.
IMO Leadership lists only the basic modifiers.
GMs should always add whatever positive or negative mods they feel are appropriate for their game or the PC.
I don't have a copy of Ultimate Campaign sitting right here, but the OP quoted a passage from it as:
"If you exploit your cohort, you'll quickly find your Leadership score shrinking away. Although this doesn't change the cohort's level, the cohort can't gain levels until your Leadership score allows for a level increase, so if you're a poor leader, you must wait longer for your cohort to level up. In extreme cases, the cohort might abandon you, and you'll have to recruit a new cohort."
Based on that passage it sounds like the Leadership score is or at least can be used to limit the level advancement of an existing cohort rather than just the starting level of a cohort you attract. If this is true you'll need some positive modifiers to keep your cohort at your level -2. I'm not sure how else to interpret the quoted text.
As an aside, I wonder if there's any formula for Leadership scores above 24 or if Leadership just kind of cuts off there.
The CRB, as has already been brought up, has nothing to say about leadership score affecting your cohort's advancement, and in fact, affects nothing once the cohort is recruited. now, this may or may not have been the intent, but it doesn't specify. UCamp has added either an addendum or an errata (depending on how you ascertain the intent of the CRB's text). UCamp is not compulsory, so in the end, it's up to your GM.
Rules text aside, I can certainly see a case for limiting cohort potential if you are a poor leader. I think the advancement limitation in UCamp is a good idea. The idea that poor treatment would reduce the cohorts level advancement does make sense. The idea is a cohort see you as a mentor - you do not typically learn as effectively from a mentor who is cruel.
Negative levels, however, especially temporary ones, I would not see as something to hold back advancement. Typically, temporary negative levels and ability damage do not affect permanent effects (as cohort advancement would be).