And when I say Lucifer, I mean THIS one.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-un ique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc
The Lucifer with an obscenely high CR who was included in Tome of Horrors for reasons I still don't understand. He's too powerful to even be an end-game threat. Is him having stats just supposed to be a formality?
...In any case, with the advent of Mythic Adventures, players are now able to reach legendary levels of power and take on threats that were normally considered unkillable.
So, a party of six level 20/MT 10's. Even balance between casters, martials, et cetera. Can they do it?
Actually, I'll pose the question like this: can any of them beat a 74 AC?
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Why would you want to? He's a man of wealth and taste. Surely he's just misunderstood.
A level 20 non-mythic gunslinger can do over 1000 damage...so yes, a full party can definitely take him down. If you allow the vital strike cheese, a fighter can take some serious chunks out of Lucifer's HP, and with a single attack at highest BaB they might even be able to hit it.
Gunslinger could do it.
A fighter might be able to do it.A barbarian could probably do it.
I have a Horizon Walker who could probably manage it.
Seriously?
Wow. I had no idea a CR 39 creature could be such a pushover.
What if he beats you on Initiative?
Wow. I had no idea a CR 39 creature could be such a pushover.
That's because it's not a true CR 39. It's just a monster with a ton of core spells with a bloated statblock.
In theory a level 20 non-mythic can do it. In practice is a little different. You will need to get him 1x1, win the initiative, be able to hit a full attack, roll very good results and he still has a contingency spell.
A 20th level/Mythic tier 10 can do it more easier.
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This again?
If you are playing the original ruler of all devils and master of his own plane of existence as a villain who would simply stand there going toe to toe with an adventuring party, regardless of their level or mythic tier status, then you lack the imagination required to run villains of that level of power (and I don't mean his personal power).
Yep, easily. I am assuming we are not talking about a one-on-one, but a party of four against that dude. He will go last in initiative, Amazing Initiative and probably Mythic Improved Initiative will make sure of that. That means that four lvl 20/tier 10 characters get to act before him. Bye-bye, Lucifer.
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I have no doubt that a party, balanced or not, of level 20/tier 10 characters could take him out. However, that goes on the assumption that he was designed for mythic play, which he was not.
All of the uber-opponents in Tome of Horrors Complete were designed for core rules characters so if you remove the mythic tiers he becomes considerably more powerful. I would not say unkillable, but certainly elevated back to uber-opponent status. ToHC has a bunch of big bads like Lucifer in there that it is unlikely characters will ever be able to face or overcome.
As far as why such opponents are included I could not say. Why were the demon lords and gods given stats in first edition?
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Not if he's played intelligently.
He's Lucifer. And since he never leaves it, you can assume he's on his home plane.
And, joy of joys, he can also hide his presence utterly from the Divination magics of the party as well.
Meanwhile he summons, say, 1d3 Pit Fiends and casts Unholy Aura on them from across the plane, and sends them at the party since they can just Greater Teleport there (because Big L knows exactly where they are at all times).
Probably won't kill them, but having to make a DC 30 Fort save every time they smack one to avoid 1d6 Str damage is going to take its toll, I'm sure.
Hell, he can keep doing this until all his summons (and Gate) for the day are gone.
That should have softened them up at least a little bit, so he can move on to something else, considering he's a 20th level Sorcerer and a 19th level Wizard, I'm sure he'll think of something.
Simplest, but most time consuming, of which would be simply using his (at will) Quickened Fireball, followed by Greater Teleport (also at will) to stay as far away from the party as he can as he whittles them down from 1200 feet away.
Or, hell, do the same thing with Quickened Hold Person a bunch of times, see how many you can get. DC 25 Will ain't too shabby.
Once he's gotten the party down to a manageable 2 or so through hit and run tactics and buffed minion spamming over the course of several hours, days, weeks (he is a patient creature, of course) he can start popping in and letting loose with his Annihilation Ray on the stragglers, or Trap the Soul for those big, beefy, but none too Iron Willed types.
Or maybe spamming Flesh to Stone from 300 feet out, probably after spamming a few Quickened Dimensional Anchors to shut down any Teleport shenanigans trying to pin him down instead of some good ol' fashioned running. It's good for your health.
Or...
You get the idea. The guy's got enough devious ways of annihilating the party with his complete knowledge of where they are at all times vs their complete inability to know where he is at ANY time unless he's standing right in front of them and they have See Invisibility up.
and -6 from deadly aim if he really want to do most damge. besides hitting with a 3 in yor fist attack is not that impresive, the itteratives will have a harder time.quick math: bab +20, Dex +10, weapon +5 without any other things, you're +35... so hitting +38 seems really easy :)A level 20 non-mythic gunslinger can do over 1000 damage...so yes.To a Touch Ac 38 target?
Not to mention the range penalties, TWF penalties, and double barrel penalties (for double barreled pistols).
Not if he's played intelligently.
He's Lucifer. And since he never leaves it, you can assume he's on his home plane.
And, joy of joys, he can also hide his presence utterly from the Divination magics of the party as well.
Meanwhile he summons, say, 1d3 Pit Fiends and casts Unholy Aura on them from across the plane, and sends them at the party since they can just Greater Teleport there (because Big L knows exactly where they are at all times).
Probably won't kill them, but having to make a DC 30 Fort save every time they smack one to avoid 1d6 Str damage is going to take its toll, I'm sure.
Hell, he can keep doing this until all his summons (and Gate) for the day are gone.
That should have softened them up at least a little bit, so he can move on to something else, considering he's a 20th level Sorcerer and a 19th level Wizard, I'm sure he'll think of something.
Simplest, but most time consuming, of which would be simply using his (at will) Quickened Fireball, followed by Greater Teleport (also at will) to stay as far away from the party as he can as he whittles them down from 1200 feet away.
Or, hell, do the same thing with Quickened Hold Person a bunch of times, see how many you can get. DC 25 Will ain't too shabby.
Once he's gotten the party down to a manageable 2 or so through hit and run tactics and buffed minion spamming over the course of several hours, days, weeks (he is a patient creature, of course) he can start popping in and letting loose with his Annihilation Ray on the stragglers, or Trap the Soul for those big, beefy, but none too Iron Willed types.
Or maybe spamming Flesh to Stone from 300 feet out, probably after spamming a few Quickened Dimensional Anchors to shut down any Teleport shenanigans...
So his threat level really relies more on how the GM uses him. I guess that goes without saying.
Kind of makes you wonder how an experienced party would deal with the tactics you described. They wouldn't take it lying down, that's for sure.
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and -6 from deadly aim if he really want to do most damage. besides hitting with a 3 in your fist attack is not that impressive, the itteratives will have a harder time.quick math: bab +20, Dex +10, weapon +5 without any other things, you're +35... so hitting +38 seems really easy :)A level 20 non-mythic gunslinger can do over 1000 damage...so yes.To a Touch Ac 38 target?
True, but one of the better champion path abilities moves all iteratives up by 5 (max your full BaB) so 3 path abilities invested and they are all up there. Double barreled pistol and TWF penalties were mentioned, but I certainly hope the gunslinger has more than just those bonuses. Heck a goblin gunslinger can get a 38 dec by buying an 18, +6 belt, +5 book, +5 from level. If you have a bard in the party and the never miss on a one champion ability he's gonna put on the hurt.
Of course, all of these are made assuming the party can get close to Lucifer.
Also, for the people mentioning range, the champion path also has a 5x range boost ability. 100ft range increments for the pistols aren't bad, 200ft for deadeye I believe. 200/400 for distance pistols.
EDIT: I might as well do some quick maths
All dex investment, path abilities mentioned above, a bard in the party, and time to buff.
Weapons:
+4 Designating greater, distance evil outsider bane
+4 Distance, Courageous evil outsider bane
Buffs up:
Inspire Courage +4 (competence)
+1 Haste
+4 morale (Greater Heroism) Increased to +6 from courageous (mimicked after 1 hit thanks to greater designating)
Attack Bonus Calculations (all attacks have the same BaB thanks to 3 in precision)
(TWF penalties ignored by spending a mythic surge for Mythic TWF)
20(BaB) +13( 36 Dex) +6(enhancement Bonus)-6(deadly Aim) -2 (rapid shot) +4(competence)+1(Haste) +6 (morale) -4 (double-barrel) = +38 to hit with every single attack, none of which miss on a one or misfire.
Total attacks: 4(normal BaB) +3(TWF) +2(Mythic Rapid Shot)+1(haste) +10(double barrel)= 20 shots (2 more if he spends a surge to use champion's strike)
Damage: 1d8+ 13(dex)+18(deadly aim)+6(enhancement)+4(inspire courage) +8( after first hit from designating) +3 (pistol training) +5d6 (Up close and deadly, infinite thanks to signature deed) +2d6 (bane) +scaling (hammer the gap, the final attack hits at +19)
I'm sure I'm missing buffs or more damage sources as well
average damage: 81+hammer the gap
Critical Hit (x5 always max damage) 332 +hammer the gapx5
Statistically he crits twice so full 20 attack rotation before hammer the gap: 2122 damage
What I wouldn't give for more buffs I hadn't forgotten, and a paladin to share his smite evil (aura of justice ftw)
All of this 200-400 feat away (since his range increment only reduces attack to hit by 1 form far shot + deadeye deed
Why would you want to? He's a man of wealth and taste. Surely he's just misunderstood.What's puzzling me is the nature of his game.
Woo! Woo!
So his threat level really relies more on how the GM uses him. I guess that goes without saying.
Yeah. A high enough level party can beat ANYTHING in a knock down, drag out fight.
But these immortal god-like creatures realistically just aren't going to be that DUMB.
Kind of makes you wonder how an experienced party would deal with the tactics you described. They wouldn't take it lying down, that's for sure.
I'm sure they wouldn't, but IMO a war of attrition with a creature older than time, whose Intelligence dwarfs most humans, on his home plane where he knows every move you make and most importantly every PLAN you make, who is undetectable to your senses no matter what you do is a losing prospect from the get-go.
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This guy used to be Asmodeus's boss, and most of the thread is devoted to tactics that work if he's treated as a wandering monster in the middle of a dungeon.
I was thinking more, "infiltrating his hellish palace and engaging him in mortal combat in the heart of his lair while the destiny of all the planes hangs in the balance."
You know, Mythic stuff.
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Maybe, but then you are accepting that your original claim is false in this case "A level 20 non-mythic gunslinger can do over 1000 damage".and -6 from deadly aim if he really want to do most damage. besides hitting with a 3 in your fist attack is not that impressive, the itteratives will have a harder time.quick math: bab +20, Dex +10, weapon +5 without any other things, you're +35... so hitting +38 seems really easy :)A level 20 non-mythic gunslinger can do over 1000 damage...so yes.To a Touch Ac 38 target?True, but one of the better champion path abilities moves all iteratives up by 5 (max your full BaB) so 3 path abilities invested and they are all up there. Double barreled pistol and TWF penalties were mentioned, but I certainly hope the gunslinger has more than just those bonuses. Heck a goblin gunslinger can get a 38 dec by buying an 18, +6 belt, +5 book, +5 from level. If you have a bard in the party and the never miss on a one champion ability he's gonna put on the hurt.
You're right, I did mythic because that's what the OP asked for. I could probably look into non-mythic, but I've never made one myself, only seen other board threads where they went over 1000. For all I know vs. Lucifer's high touch the non-mythic can't 1 round him.
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I love threads like this,this all depends on whether you believe an archdevil/demon lord/god can be killed by mortals.
So to your particular query, We are talking about Lucifer the ruler of a plane of infinite devils to throw at the party. Why would he even deign to appear before them, if it was me I'd send in a battalion of pit fiends and wipe the floor with the party...but that's me.
But that's the beauty of this game, you can do whatever you want.
And when I say Lucifer, I mean THIS one.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-un ique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc
The Lucifer with an obscenely high CR who was included in Tome of Horrors for reasons I still don't understand. He's too powerful to even be an end-game threat. Is him having stats just supposed to be a formality?
...In any case, with the advent of Mythic Adventures, players are now able to reach legendary levels of power and take on threats that were normally considered unkillable.
So, a party of six level 20/MT 10's. Even balance between casters, martials, et cetera. Can they do it?
Actually, I'll pose the question like this: can any of them beat a 74 AC?
I soloed him on my Druid/monk, and just to embarrass him more, I did it in Wombat form.
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I love threads like this,this all depends on whether you believe an archdevil/demon lord/god can be killed by mortals.
So to your particular query, We are talking about Lucifer the ruler of a plane of infinite devils to throw at the party. Why would he even deign to appear before them, if it was me I'd send in a battalion of pit fiends and wipe the floor with the party...but that's me.
But that's the beauty of this game, you can do whatever you want.
Level 20/Mythic 10 are hardly "mortals." They're basically demigods. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the devils may help the PCs out. There's nothing like the scheming of evil.
That's one very large stat block ...
Please note, however, if you wish to entertain the idea he can be fought that his Planar Omniscience is no where near as powerful as you seem to imply (at least I'm guessing that's where you are coming up with "knows every move you make ... every PLAN you make ... etc."). Start off 15 miles away with Mind Blank on everyone in the party and it's a whole new ball game. And while 28 Intelligence may dwarf most humans I've got a sneaking suspicion it won't dwarf the Mythic Wizard in the party.
All Mind Blank means is that he has to be somewhere within 10 miles of them instead of anywhere on the plane, since All-Sensing "is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells".
So, yay for the party, they know he's somewhere within a 10 mile radius of them. Small victories and all I suppose.
They still have no way of finding HIM, while all he has to do is teleport forward a few miles and concentrate every minute or so.
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I don't really understand what people mean when they refer to the characters as just being mortal.
With the inclusion of Mythic rules, characters could lift hundreds or even thousands of tons of weight, jump miles in the air, or possibly fly through space at faster than light speeds by combining mythic powers like mythic timestop and star walker. They even have a mythic power called "immortal" that they eventually get.
It just seems like regardless of what PCs can do, people just refer to them as just being mortal and say they shouldn't be able to defeat higher powered beings like demon lords and such.
And I get what you are saying. But why is he looking in the first place? That question leads back to the individual campaign. Let us presume you are trying to run an adventure featuring facing off against Lucifer (if not well you may as well run a one-shot where our hypothetical party gets to jump a stat block named Lucifer in a large arena). Then in order for any kind of adventure to take place having Lucifer function without restriction as some sort of utterly unbeatable truly omniscient being who knows the party's every thought is ... well unlikely to be any fun (any more than putting an APL 14 party up against a CR 23 dragon is likely to be). As the GM you'll need to create within the adventure some way to defeat or otherwise overcome his omniscience. Maybe the party does have the aid of another even more powerful divine entity (I'm sure Lucifer has made a few enemies over the millennia) or Lucifer has some sort of achilles heal which blinds him to the companions presence if they carry Artifact X. Or maybe Lucifer just plain doesn't have a reason to know the party exists or has "bigger" worries than some group of 6 mortals (if he's watching our party '24-7' just what are those rival archdevils up to?) etc. etc.. Making any creature unbeatable to the party is not the challenge for the GM, it's making the encounters challenging and fun regardless if it's a CR 2 goblinoid or a semi-divine near omniscient CR 39 (a point I'm fairly sure you'll agree with). Really sounds like you are arguing he has no business being a creature with...
Yes, but that's not what this thread was about.
The question posed was "Can Lucifer be beaten by a level 20/MT 10 party?".
My answer was "Not if he's played to the extent of his abilities".
The encounter design isn't what's in question here, it's "Does Lucifer have the mechanical capability to take on this party in a no-holds-barred battle?".
I say "Yes."
Now, would it be un-fun for the party if that were the case? Quite possibly. So yes, toning him down is likely a good idea, or more like making him make mistakes in his tactics, taking risky moves instead of the "slow, but sure" route I was suggesting as a method that could not fail.
A level 20/10 party could probably take him in a straight fight. After all, he's just one guy, even though he is ludicrously powerful on his own.
It is a similar spell, though.
It has a very similar, but more powerful, effect than the examples.