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This has probably come up elsewhere, and there's a few posts asking for clarification, but I just wanted to give my personal view on the part of the FAQ concerning cards adding traits to a check, and then because of the new traits, other cards being made able to play off of them.
Specifically this one (yes, we've all seen it before):
Does using a weapon with the Ranged trait allow me to use an Archer on the check, even if I don't have the Ranged skill?
Yes. Cards that replace the required skill for a check add their traits to that check. So playing the Longbow makes your combat check a Ranged combat check.
I know this is official and all, but I'd have to say I disagree, literally, with what the FAQ is saying.
Adding a trait to a check does not make that check the trait. There's a difference between adding a trait to a check and changing the check itself.
Any character can use a bow, and the check gains the Ranged trait, but that doesn't make it a Ranged check by default. When they play the card, they choose either to make a Dexterity Check or a Ranged Check, and set up their dice accordingly. Cards that affect Ranged Checks only apply if the person using the card decides to make a Ranged Check and not a Dexterity Check (since the bow says to roll dexterity die or ranged die).
If the person chooses to make a Dexterity check, (maybe because their dexterity is d10) and they don't have ranged, they may choose to make a Dexterity Check. If they choose to do so, the Archer cannot be used, since it is used to add to a Ranged Check during combat, and the person is not making a Ranged Check. They are just making a Dexterity check with the Ranged trait.
If the person, instead, decided to make a Ranged check, then they could use the Archer, however, because they don't have the Ranged skill, they'd be rolling a d4. So it'd be d4 (ranged) + d4 (archer) for 2d4 total for the check.
That's how I see it, anyway, so I disagree with that part of the FAQ, even though it is official. The way it is, it's just too fumbly. I thought the untrained check was a d4, so how can I make a Dexterity Check but then turn it into a Ranged Check and the die not change since I don't have the Ranged skill?
I can see in the future some enemies being resistant to traits like Ranged or Two Handed (as some are now, such as skellies and piercing). It's not a Piercing Check, though, it's a Strength/Melee/Dexterity/Ranged/WhateverYouRollToCombat check with the Piercing Trait. Two totally different things.
Tsuto Kaijitsu is already resistant to Ranged attacks.
I do note your distinction, though.
I hadn't noticed that one yet, but there ya go, lol.
I love the game, and have actually had very little confusion over most of it. The rules, to me, were intuitive, and didn't leave much to the imagination as far as figuring out what does what.
Some of the FAQ is clarification that I didn't realize I needed, such as Sajan's Strength check not being a strength check even though it says use the dex die but doesn't say that it changes it, etc. Those are helpful. I'm also glad that the team is working hard to make the FAQ/Errata quick and keep it updated instead of just gathering info for 5 months then putting out a document then, then waiting another 5 months, etc.
But this specific one just seems to throw out all I thought I understood about the rules concerning checks and untrained skills, etc. It could be just because I'm thinking about it oddly or going based too much on the rules as written, I'm not sure. It just kinda struck me as weird and my mind is having trouble processing it correctly.
Along with that, instances like the Sajan thing, where his ability is what allows him to make a check with the dexterity die. By default, his attack is traitless, it's not bludgeoning, magic, or anything else, it's blank of traits, but it is a Dexterity Check. The same is for anyone else just making the basic Strength/Melee check for combat, they're completely traitless.
So the only thing that matters is the check being made. If something said it added a die to a Melee check, you obviously couldn't use it unless you chose to make a Melee check. If you made a Strength Check, then something that just benefits Melee Checks wouldn't work.
So why would something that just benefits Ranged checks work for a Dexterity check?
Am I just over-thinking it? Maybe I'm trying to separate the game too much from an RPG and actually treat it like a card game? I dunno. Either way, though, it's fun, I just wanna make sure I'm on the same page and can figure out why the page is the way it is.
My understanding is that there are two things here. In this post I'll use my usual syntax of putting traits in Initial Caps and skills in ALL CAPS. This is a summary of what I've learned (but may be wrong about!) from various posts on this topic on these boards.
The confusion seems to come from there being a trait called Ranged and a skill called RANGED.
If you play a bow on a combat check, you can choose to use your DEX or RANGED skill as the basis for that check. Even if you use your DEX (skill) the check is also a "Ranged combat check" (i.e. a combat check with the Ranged trait).
Similarly, if our old friend Sajan is in combat he faces a combat check.
He uses his power to use DEX for the check, so it's now both a "(combat) dexterity check" and a "combat check". It is NOT a "Melee combat check" (since no MELEE skill has been used and no weapon with the Melee trait was used)... so you cannot play cards/powers that interact with "Melee combat checks".
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In relation to the example in your OP, I think the Archer's wording is "add ... to your Ranged combat check", which you CAN do by playing a bow (which adds the Ranged trait) even if you use DEX as the skill for the check.
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Does that help at all?
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I quite understand the idea behind it. Where I'm having issues is trying to imagine that, for example:
The way things are now, based on how I'm interpreting all of this, when you use a Warhammer, you end up making all of the following:
Hammer Combat Check
Melee Combat Check
Bludgeoning Combat Check
If it's the +1, you're also making a Magic Combat Check
However, it doesn't add the Strength trait. Does that mean, then, that it is not a Strength-based combat check? Skills aren't traits, so why should it work one way but not the other?
If you decide to use Melee, does it then become a Melee Melee Hammer Bludgeoning Combat Check? That just seems to be going a bit far.
I didn't get this from the rules at all. I understand adding the traits, but it doesn't make it that type of check. Based on the rules, the idea is that the type of check is determined by the skill you use, not the traits you gain.
When you use a Warhammer, you're making a Strength Combat Check or a Melee Combat Check. The combat check gains the Hammer, Melee, and Bludgeoning traits.
If you make a Strength Check with it, it gains the Melee Trait, but it is not a Melee Check.
As far as RemiBureau, the idea is correct. I don't see how adding a trait makes it that type of check. It's not that I want it to be that way, it's how I'm seeing it already is (was), based on the rules. Then this FAQ answer comes along and completely blows that idea out of the water. So a major part of what limits certain cards and what allows others are now in very muddied waters.
It doesn't really change a lot now, as the only ones I can think of are that now I can use the Archer when using any ranged weapon whatsoever, regardless of whether I choose Dexterity or Ranged and I can use the Soldier with any melee weapon whatsoever, regardless of whether I choose Strength of Melee.
But for future adventures, when more cards get added that can affect things, are we going to get an Ooze Familiar Ally card that 'adds to an acid check' so that when people play Acid Arrow and make an Acid Check, it can give it bonuses?
Acid Arrow, by the way, lets you make an Arcane Magic Arcane Attack Acid Elite Combat Check (with the Magic, Arcane, Attack, Acid, and Elite traits, apparently), NOT an Arcane Combat Check with the Magic, Arcane, Attack, Acid, and Elite traits. (Be careful about disagreeing with this, because that's exactly what all of this has been about, there's a difference between making a trait-based check and making a check with a trait)
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Further edit and clarification.
Pretty much, it sounds to me like the designers intended for the Archer, et al. to be used with a Combat Check that has a certain trait. That just requires a slight errata to the Archer card (and its like), not a change to a fundamental rule of the game.
So the Archer could be reworded to "Recharge this card to add 1d4 to your Combat Check that has the Ranged Trait."
Your reasoning is flawed, but your result is correct.
Technically, combat only has one type of check. a Combat Check. Spells and weapons allow the user to choose which die to use other than the default Strength die, and also add Traits that allow additional affects to apply.
Shortsword: "for your COMBAT CHECK, reveal this card to roll you Strength or Melee die +1d6..."
Shortbow: "for your COMBAT CHECK, reveal this card to roll your Dexterity or Ranged die + 1d6..."
Acid Arrow: "For your COMBAT CHECK, discard this card to roll your Arcane die +2d4..."
Note that none of these cards say anything about changing the check from a combat check to a "Melee/Ranged/Arcane" combat check. They are all combat checks, they simply allow the user to choose different dice to roll for the check.
A combat check using a Shortsword has the traits: Sword, Melee, Piercing, Finesse, Basic.
A combat check using a Shortbow has the traits: Bow, Ranged, Piercing, 2-handed, Basic.
A combat check using an Acid Arrow has the traits: Magic, Arcane, Attack, Acid, Elite.
Thus, other cards which relate to those traits can have an effect. A shortsword has the piercing trait, so those monsters with a resistance to piercing would gain their resistance. A shortbow has the ranged trait, and thus cards like the archer can be used to affect it. Acid arrow has the magic trait, and may thus affect monsters that are only affected by attacks with the magic trait. Etc.
Note again that there is actually no "Ranged Combat Check". There is only a Combat Check with the ranged trait. Therefore, it appears that the intent of the wording "Ranged Combat Check" and "Melee combat check", etc, are actually "Combat check with the Ranged/Melee/Arcane/Etc trait".
The issue with following along that thought process, though, is that it effectively makes several blessings no longer work.
Just as you pointed out "A combat check using a Shortsword has the traits: Sword, Melee, Piercing, Finesse, Basic." There's a complete lack of the ability to use the blessing that adds to strength-based combat checks, since, as you say, the check is not actually a strength-based combat check, just a Combat Check that gains the Melee, Piercing, Finesse, and Basic traits that just happens to use the Strength die of the character in question if they choose Strength, or the die associated with the Melee skill if they choose to use Melee.
A Melee check is a Strength-based check. A Blessing of Gorum works on Strength-based combat checks. Even if a Strength-based combat check gets the Melee trait from a weapon, the blessing still works.
There's a huge advantage to the words "Ranged combat check," in that it covers "combat check using the Ranged skill" and "combat check using the Ranged trait." It may be less clearly explained than I would like, but it does exactly what I need it to do.
But I could be proven wrong. Ten thousand commenters will do that sometimes.
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There's a huge advantage to the words "Ranged combat check," in that it covers "combat check using the Ranged skill" and "combat check using the Ranged trait." It may be less clearly explained than I would like, but it does exactly what I need it to do.
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Ah, see, there we go, that was actually my issue. I couldn't figure out which was intended to be which and how they were inclusive or exclusive, but it sounds like you actually intended it to be a catchall for both in that example. That helps me greatly and helps me understand better the actual intent behind the rules and the FAQ ruling.
Glad to hear it. Please keep poking at the edges.
@Nathaniel - I'm not sure if Mike muddied the waters with that comment, but in the base game and character expansion (and perhaps everywhere in the Pathfinder/PACG universe???) MELEE is always based on STR.
So if you have MELEE then you are also testing STR (since your MELEE would be printed as something like "STR + 2".
Now... and this is why I think Mike's comment was perhaps unhelpful...
If you did NOT have MELEE printed on your card, then your MELEE would be 1d4 and it would NOT be based on STR... so if you chose (for some unfathomable reason) to roll your MELEE die for a combat check you would get 1d4 and not be able to play STR buffs like Gorum...
Magic is more complex. DIVINE is not always based on WIS (e.g. Lem's DIVINE is based on CHARISMA) so a Divine check is both "a divine check" and "a whatever-your-divine-is-based-on check".
If you don't have DIVINE on your character card then your Divine check would just be a Divine check with no 'inheritance'.
(Edit: fixed diving -> divine typo!)
@Nathaniel - there are two things to remember here:
1) If (and only if) you have a skill printed on your card then it will be written as something like "MELEE = STR + 2". This means it is "Your STR including all STR bonuses + 2". Which means that you can play STR buffs (e.g. Blessing of Gorum) to boost your MELEE.
2) If, on the other hand, you do NOT have MELEE printed on your card then there is NO inheritance. If you choose to (or have to) test your (unprinted) MELEE then you roll 1d4 and only MELEE buffs will help. (You cannot play STR because, for you, MELEE is not "STR + 0", it is just "1d4 with no inheritance".
There is no 'default' inheritance.
To answer your post bit by bit:
Well I was convinced that each skill were independant and no skills were dependant on other...
Unprinted skills are independent. If a skill is printed on your character card as "ABC = XYZ + 2" then you can boost ABC or XYZ when you are testing ABC.
So any Wisdom bonus goes to Perception test...
ONLY if you have PERCEPTION printed on your character card and ONLY if it is a subskill of WISDOM.
But the correlary is that even without the skill I can use the base skill bonus I have, logically like STR bonus to Melee, WIS to perception, CON to Fortitude.
Right ?
No, this is not correct. If you do not have the skill printed on your character card then you cannot inherent bonuses.