Question about a paladin's responsibilities and the code


Homebrew and House Rules


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I've run into a possible problem in the game I am running. Basically, the party leader, a paladin, and his wife (another party member) are having a child. Unfortunately, due to magical interference and other problems, the baby is to be born deformed.

Now I'm using the The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge from old 2E, updated for Pathfinder. I rolled on the table, and the worst thing happened: the baby is slated to be born a demon.

So I have to ask this question: is the paladin, the father, bound by the paladin's code to slay his own son upon birth as a demon? Would the other paladin in the party be obligated to do so? Is there wiggle room in the paladin's code that would make it possible to attempt to raise the child to be good (and possibly succeed)? Does either way mean a fall?


Probably yes, although the other paladin could act in his stead.

But that sucks. As long as in your (the GM's) game nurture over nature is possible, go with the "Hellboy" story line. It has a lot of roleplay potential.

*edit* Although be careful either way. You say this is a married couple? That story line may be a little hard to handle.


As for falling... I would only have a Paladin fall if their intent were evil. I can see none of the other Paladin's wanting to hang out with them though.


Even an Evil Outsider can be led to the side of Good.

An example of such on Golarion is the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel.


Icyshadow wrote:

Even an Evil Outsider can be led to the side of Good.

An example of such on Golarion is the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel.

Ah, didn't know that. It was a worry because in 3.0 and 3.5, demons were "irredeemable" by nature and as such there would be no hope. That was the rule as per the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Didn't know that Pathfinder changed it, but glad they did so. There might be a chance for this storyline going forward after all. Nice!


"Just as an angel can fall, so can the rare demon rise." (PF-WotR)

Silver Crusade

Forget the technicalities, this is an ideal ROLE-playing opportunity!

There IS no objectively right or wrong answer, but plenty of conflicting subjective ones. This is what's best about our hobby!

Grand Lodge

I would say bring on the challenge.

An evil demonic baby may have different instincts than a normal one, most babies are selfish and have a very warped world view because they do not see others as infividuals.

Most demons are chaotic and evil indicating a tendency to wanton destruction, cruelty and intense dislike of authority.

Now imagine you are a paladin parent, you see this as a way to show that evil can be redeemed and you escape having to murder your own child in cold blood.

Frustration as the baby tears its diaper apart whenever can, deliberately does the opposite of what you tell it to do and frequently flies into tantrum whenever it is denied food/comfort/warmth.

Normal babies do this all the time, this one would be a living nightmare.

Just the type of challenge paladins strive for.


DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

I've run into a possible problem in the game I am running. Basically, the party leader, a paladin, and his wife (another party member) are having a child. Unfortunately, due to magical interference and other problems, the baby is to be born deformed.

Now I'm using the The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge from old 2E, updated for Pathfinder. I rolled on the table, and the worst thing happened: the baby is slated to be born a demon.

So I have to ask this question: is the paladin, the father, bound by the paladin's code to slay his own son upon birth as a demon? Would the other paladin in the party be obligated to do so? Is there wiggle room in the paladin's code that would make it possible to attempt to raise the child to be good (and possibly succeed)? Does either way mean a fall?

DGL,

This is my first post here, so please be gentle with me ::smirk:: Imo, the "Unfortunately, due to magical interference and other problems" is what the problem is. I've been gaming since 1976 and even used the Chainmail rules for about 6 months (yeah, where are those btw?) so "appealing to my own authority" is a bit cheesy, but here goes.
By definition, a paladin is a being somewhat special to a god/goddess, don't you agree? They are proponents to the aforesaid god/goddess's plans, instruments, if you will. That implies a good amount of humility on the pally's part towards their deity. It also implies a quid pro quo on both parts. The pally and their deity are basically using each other for a symbiotic gain.
Now, that being said, the "Unfortunately, due to..." is what the pally has to deal with. Pally's are all about conflict and resolution. Bringing things to a head, quickly and concisely, imo. Being a diplomat COULD be part of a pally's duties but, a cleric could do that; a pally uses their patron deity's weapon for a reason (or a sword, w/e). Pally sees the problem, bonk it with the appropriate "tool", problem solved, people cheer the pally, pally goes home for brews and wild orgy with their significant other (pally's tenants allowing ::grins:: )
So, the real question is: Are the "Unfortunate...blah blah blah" a result of a screw up on the pally's (s') part? If so, then this is a "causal" effect, and the pally(s) has(have) to do penance. In your case, MAJOR penance; not necessarily a fall, per se. This could be an entire campaign to seek out where the baby (due to no fault of it's own) could go to some type of reliquary or holy site (deep in the bowels of some forgotten destroyed-by-the-patron-deity's-archenemy temple), have a wish or major prayer (entire party, perhaps even NATION, in on the prayer session) Huzzah! problem solved, perhaps?
Keep in mind, a pally's major purpose (imo) is for SHARP conflict and it's resolution, not for dilly-dallying around with diplomatic couriers, boring dinners, lousy food/wine, and empty platitudes. Pally's are about "Okay, draw my sword, kick in my buffs, direct allies for most beneficial effects, and LAY THE F*** into mine enemies! Huzzah!"
Sound like a plan? Hope so! and most of all, enjoy the GAME, because that's what it is, a game. :D


How about NOT putting the paladin in this position in the first place?

If you are dead set on your idea, in order to help you with your question we need some more info:
1) Are you playing in Golarion?
2) What is the race of the paladin?
3) Does the paladin belong to any churches paladin order? if yes which?
4) If 3) is no then what deity does the paladin has as a patron deity?

We also are going to need some info on the wife character, also what are you going to do with birth? is the mother going to die or she will give birth to a quasit or shadow demon?


DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

Even an Evil Outsider can be led to the side of Good.

An example of such on Golarion is the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel.

Ah, didn't know that. It was a worry because in 3.0 and 3.5, demons were "irredeemable" by nature and as such there would be no hope. That was the rule as per the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Didn't know that Pathfinder changed it, but glad they did so. There might be a chance for this storyline going forward after all. Nice!

This would be the same 3e that had a Succubus Paladin as a sample NPC, just to mention.


the paladin code is to stop commission of evil and rescue victims. the baby is clearly the latter.

you live in a world with magic as an everyday thing, and gods that you can actually go see and touch in person. there is literally nothing, not even death itself, that magic doesn't fix.

Shadow Lodge

I need to read this Complete 2E guide you're talking about.


+1 for the Hellboy idea. Thats pretty cool.


I suppose it depends on how reasonable your deity is. There isn't some extra-dimensional Arbiter of Paladin Powers. At least I hope not. Besides the GM, I guess.

If your deities are more compassionate, they'll understand that life sometimes gives you hard choices, and that as long as you tried to make the right choice to the best of your ability, you deserve to keep your powers. You are, after all, only human. Or, um, whatever you are.

If deities in your setting are incredibly detached from the realities of mortal life (sometimes, you only have bad choices), they might revoke your powers for harming an innocent, even if it is a demon (demon or no, it hasn't done anything yet). This might create a tremendous role-playing opportunity for your paladin to find a new faith, or, if all the gods are like that, to found his own faith, based on what he thinks his sense of justice and compassion should be.

I'd be head over heels excited to set up such a journey for you if I were a GM. I'd have you meet or seek others who have felt the same way, and form a society of shunned paladins, not to take revenge, but to stand for a new kind of truth.. and perhaps, through some great act of compassion or kindness, raise a new deity.

Aha! I've got it. The new god would be the patron of the most important thing the other LG deities lacked - Forgiveness.


DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

Even an Evil Outsider can be led to the side of Good.

An example of such on Golarion is the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel.

Ah, didn't know that. It was a worry because in 3.0 and 3.5, demons were "irredeemable" by nature and as such there would be no hope. That was the rule as per the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Didn't know that Pathfinder changed it, but glad they did so. There might be a chance for this storyline going forward after all. Nice!

Pathfinder didn't change it, they actually went out of their way to keep a lot of the old alignment restrictions even if they didn't make sense. BOED actually says they can be redeemed.

Anyways, paladin falls. They always fall. No matter what, even if they do their job. That's the purpose of the class isn't it?

Kidding aside, its really up to the table and GM. Personally I'm not big on making someone fall over a harsh decision. Gives them a feeling they have options instead of false options because you don't really want to fall.


The other very difficult part about making your paladins fall is the sheer mechanics of it - while lots of us appreciate roleplaying challenges, there is very little a paladin can do once they fall, having lost their abilities, which isn't much fun to play in combat. In addition, if you do not find absolution before you level up, the character is forced to multiclass. If the player wasn't planning on doing so, they will be very unhappy, because even if they successfully atone, they paid a permanent mechanical cost.

Now that I think about it, I'd probably consider allowing a fallen paladin who was seeking atonement to advance in the class, but at no gain of class abilities (besides BAB, skills, and saves, of course) until she does in fact atone. But that's not RAW, of course.


Quote:
Now I'm using the The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge

Good grief.


Something just occurred to me.

Many of the gods of Golarion were once mortal. Surely they could understand the decisions a paladin might have to through eh?

Grand Lodge

Bizbag wrote:
The other very difficult part about making your paladins fall is the sheer mechanics of it - while lots of us appreciate roleplaying challenges, there is very little a paladin can do once they fall, having lost their abilities, which isn't much fun to play in combat.

Or you might be a GM with more than a shred of imagination who can conceive of other ways of disciplining or penalising an errant Paladin besides the (oh, you're no longer a Paladin) destruct switch if the character hasn't truly fallen. Maybe certain abilities just might not work when called upon, or only work in extreme situations. Or allow someone who leaves Paladinhood behind permanently to retrain his dead levels.

The rules are guidelines... not shackles.


If the baby has horns, they can be delivered by Cesarian without killing the mother. It can be a race against time to get the party wizard to a level where they can polymorph the baby into an actual character race.

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