No matter what level the PC's reach in my game (they are now 10th), the first thing the sorcerer does in any combat against an armed enemy is to hit the enemy's weapon with grease. The next round, he does it again against any other weapon or shield. Or maybe against the saddle the enemy sits in.
I'm not saying illegitimate, but it is so boring I want to cry. The player is a dear friend and great roleplayer, but this tactic is so useful that it never stops. I'm halfway to stopping play over how bored I am with sorcerers and witches who do the same thing in every fight. It's a class seemingly designed specifically to bore GM's.
And no, I'm not persuaded by the fact that the fighter swings the same sword in every fight. That's a weak argument.
Help me A) come up with some better counters to this tactic, B) learn not to hate it and all the other boringly repetitious stuff limited casters do, or C) decide to call it quits.
EDIT: Perhaps what really bores the heck out of me is debuffing. Even a small party of four can afford to dedicate one PC to just prevent the the enemy from doing anything interesting while the others grind him down. It makes every fight boring.
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Speak to your players and ask them to vary their tactics in the interest of making things more interesting for everyone.
If they don't want to do this, then build encounters with this in mind. Give some of your enemy fighters Lightning Reflexes, for instance.
Maybe throw in some archer mooks who ready actions to shoot at anyone that looks like they're casting a spell, but be careful as you don't want to actually just totally shut down those players.
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Monk encounters are your solution. Being monks, they probably won't use weapons (just headbutts) or fail debuffs as often (ridiculous saves). At this point, just make CON/WIS/DEX focused Monks with +x Agile AoMF's enough that the debuffers have to find something else (Because enough HP for evocation SoS and ridiculous saves). The high touch will lead to some new and interesting tactics from the sorc.
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Throw a few monks/NA focused enemies into the mix, swap out or add Lightning Reflexes to monsters as mentioned, and most of all, talk to your players. If you're so fed up you're thinking of stopping the game, tell them you realise it's not their fault as the spell is so useful, but its killing any enjoyment you get from the game with every fight being the same over and over.
More melee combatants, and maybe some natural attack focused demons/magical beasts as your BBEGs. This should help alter his tactics a bit. The fact that these are some of the most common powerful enemies, across all level rangers, is a plus.
Or maybe have the opponents have multiple weapons. A TWF ranger with daggers and quick draw presents both a melee and ranged threat, and makes grease on his weapons almost a useless tactic. Also, they have good reflex saves.
You may want to still include a few combatants for him to spam grease on, but typically make them less common as they start to reach the goal. Thematically, it both intensifies the situation, as he has to make new tactics on the fly, and it presents a transition from the normal, mundane life to the untamed wilderness and darkness of this world (or other worlds)
Thanks for the all the responses, especially CombatOwl's in-depth analysis.
I did not make clear what (besides repetition) is annoying about this. I'll give an example. Today, the party finished the third book of the Shattered Star AP, wherein they fought a creature with two solid magical weapons (two-weapon fighting) and a total of five attacks.
First round: Grease on the creature's saddle (it was riding). DC 17 Reflex save. No problem. The enemy makes that save on a roll of 6+. Enemy closes with meat shields in doorway. Can't get to sorcerer.
Second round: Sorcerer casts grease on the enemy' main magical weapon. Enemy makes save, starts full attack. After two successful attacks, it finally fails its save on the third iterative attack of five. It loses its main weapon. Makes two more attacks with off-hand weapon.
Third round: Sorcerer casts grease on the enemy' secondary magical weapon...
You get the picture. It's got a low save, but it works eventually. Even if the villain can pull out a backup weapon, it's still not the main magical powerful weapon he starts with. I suppose I could put a weapon cord on every weapon.
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And there's your problem: if a target passes the initial saving throw against grease on an attended item (wielded weapon), then the effect is avoided (no grease on the weapon) and no further saving throws are needed for that grease spell.
EDIT: And what Belryan said, even if a target fails the initial save, it only needs to make the 'pick up/use' saving throw once per round.
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item.
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You are playing Grease pre-FAQ, here is the FAQ. Also even if that FAQ wasn't there and you continued to roll reflex saves after a successful initial saving throw, you still would have to roll once per round of usage, not for every attack.
On another note, grease on the shield? what does that accomplish? i don't think that you can get the enemy to drop his shield that way.
PS. I don't was playing it the opposite way (of what the FAQ says) too, so don't feel bad about that. Although you might feel a little bad about not seeing the once per turn thing.
Sometimes it's to bad that the spell doesn't target people else you could have sent in a pair of disguised mud wrestlers to deal with the greasy sorcerer
Just for the fun of it I would sent the party an BBEG with his weapon bearer squire henchman. This situation seems perfect for that archetype.
Not that the squire could not, all by himself, be a threat, too.
Huh. Well that does change things considerably. Thanks, guys!
Sometimes decades of GMing experience can work against you. I'm constantly remembering older versions of the rules.
I will add to this (despite the fact that it looks like the whole problem was based on not understanding the initial save negated the entire effect of the grease spell when cast on an item) and suggest in general that all melee weapons (and arguably bows) should just be assumed to have weapon cords. The item costs 1 sp, and does this:
Weapon Cord: Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
Theres no reason anyone who uses a melee weapon 100% of the time as their main weapon shouldn't use it. The only people it isn't appropriate for is if you change weapons often for some reason.
Theres no reason anyone who uses a melee weapon 100% of the time as their main weapon shouldn't use it. The only people it isn't appropriate for is if you change weapons often for some reason.
Unless your players don't want to walk around a busy market street with a weapon drawn. I have plenty of players who use a 2-h weapon, and the wear them on their backs. so they would have to retrieve the weapon and then attach the chain first, combined with having to draw the weapon that's a lot of actions to waste.
I agree with this for 1-h weapons though. you can just keep your hand near your side.
There is also the option of weapons that do not need to be drawn or removed.
I particularly like the cestus as a TWF weapon since it has the same stats as a dagger (so not that bad compared the standard short sword), but they are basically like spiked gaunlets (only they are actually worth using), so they never need to be removed. There are some lines about how they constrict the fingers, but they only impose a -2 to very fine actions like disable device. Light armor is more restricting than that, and people can sleep in chainshirts just fine.
It provides many of the benefits of using a monk, but they are simple weapons almost anyone can use (I think druids might be unable to, but meh. They have tigers and turn into tigers. no loss there)
Another note: while it includes the line "weild other items" in their description, I have never really seen a conclusive answer on whether you can weild other weapons with a cestus on. If so, then they make excellent backup weapons against this player.
Its a sorcerer. they spell spam. Its kind of like getting bored with the fighter hitting things with his sword
While I can sympathize with you, and agree that by 10th level the character should have changed his shtick by now, I have to agree with BigNorseWolf.
Sorcerers are designed to spam. They have more spells per day but few spells know. So you spam the most effective one you know over and over.
Also, flying creatures that use natural attacks aren't going to be phased by grease at all. Really, what can it do to them? Same for burrowing creatures, ethereal creatures, etc. (Somebody already mentioned incorporeal creatures.) Likewise, oozes can't fall prone. And you could have a counterspelling spellcaster make life harder for the sorcerer too, although any half-decent caster could do much nastier things to the party than just counter a grease spell.
I will... suggest in general that all melee weapons (and arguably bows) should just be assumed to have weapon cords. The item costs 1 sp, and does this:
Weapon Cord: Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
I might disagree with bows there, because bows are so easy to Sunder: 10 points of damage dealt destroys them, so you're just giving the enemy (or GM) that much more justification to try a Sunder rather than Disarm. There's perhaps some small chance a bow (especially a non-magical or low-enhancement bonus bow) might not be destroyed in one hit, so that's a reason to go with Disarm, which just depends on the CMB check. With a weapon cord visibly tied to it, anybody KNOWS that a Disarm isnt going to be a significant penalty, so why not go with the nearly same chances of success Sunder? Same goes for any of the low HP/Hardness wooden weapons.
Wait til your players discover the Create Pit line of spells, Grease will seem like a welcome break ;)
It was never the power of the spell about which I was complaining. I was talking about repetition, not result.
But in this case, the wizard in the same party loves the create pit spells.
Its a sorcerer. they spell spam. Its kind of like getting bored with the fighter hitting things with his sword.
With respect, I think it's nothing like that, as I said in the OP.
Sorcerers are designed to spam. They have more spells per day but few spells know. So you spam the most effective one you know over and over.
And that is why I find them boring.
I might disagree with bows there, because bows are so easy to Sunder: 10 points of damage dealt destroys them, so you're just giving the enemy (or GM) that much more justification to try a Sunder rather than Disarm. There's perhaps some small chance a bow (especially a non-magical or low-enhancement bonus bow) might not be destroyed in one hit, so that's a reason to go with Disarm, which just depends on the CMB check. With a weapon cord visibly tied to it, anybody KNOWS that a Disarm isnt going to be a significant penalty, so why not go with the nearly same chances of success Sunder? Same goes for any of the low HP/Hardness wooden weapons.
In this regard you've really got a couple of problem. First, if you're an archer you should hopefully be using tactics to avoid getting anywhere near the enemy to allow them to sunder your weapon or attack you. Further, if you don't have a magically enhanced bow it is expensive or much of a problem to replace it. And if you got a wizard it's free. And I suppose that's why you always keep backup weapons for this sort of instance. Thirdly, I've always as a player thought it far more effective to sunder an enemies gear rather than disarm it (if you're playing a high damage dealing character) exactly because it's easy to negate disarm tactics through this method. However, as a GM I usually would hold this punch if only because players really despise having their gear sundered. I haven't met many GMs who utilize sunder the way I feel like it really should. Especially when players don't carry around backup weapons. Also, there is the impervious special ability that can be added to weapons as a flat fee.
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By that level one could assume that the PC's have enough notoriety to let most competent foes know about particular tactics they use apparently all of the time. Having some sort of counter for that on occasion would be a good means to make them switch up their usual tactics.
Perhaps a few armed foes with quick draw so the tactic is drastically less useful as they can only target so much a turn. If the PC's don't have sources for DR no reason to even have magic weapons to fight them with.
Plus thunderstone/tanglefoot/etc the sorcerer first. That can put a huge crimp in that strategy.
EDIT: Perhaps what really bores the heck out of me is debuffing. Even a small party of four can afford to dedicate one PC to just prevent the the enemy from doing anything interesting while the others grind him down. It makes every fight boring.
It sounds like you just dislike CC. To be honest. If I had been the Sorceror and you had ruled Grease to have a save every time the item was used... i would probably have spammed it too. Now if you use it correctly he will probably change to a different set of spells. Dont be surprised if its more CC though. If thats what the player enjoys he will probably continue it. And honestly thats what a caster does best. Let the melee deal damage. A caster is great at locking a battle field down and making the bad guys worthless.
As others have stated. Feel lucky he used grease for 10 levels. Now his toy is broke and he will find all new ways to frustrate you lol.
Wait til your players discover the Create Pit line of spells, Grease will seem like a welcome break ;)It was never the power of the spell about which I was complaining. I was talking about repetition, not result.
But in this case, the wizard in the same party loves the create pit spells.
Its a sorcerer. they spell spam. Its kind of like getting bored with the fighter hitting things with his sword.With respect, I think it's nothing like that, as I said in the OP.
Sorcerers are designed to spam. They have more spells per day but few spells know. So you spam the most effective one you know over and over.And that is why I find them boring.
You should consider altering some of the encounters in the adventure path to be less suitable to this tactic. If the sorceror runs into several enemies that dont use weapons and arent riding saddles, suddenly greasing everything isnt a cure all. And he will have to change tactics (you might even consider allowing him to alter choices if he gets frustrated with encounters he cant grease so he is less grease focused if he took anything specific to the spell).
You also could give him something new to play with. There is a 3rd party product called the super genius games guide to rune staves and wyrd wands. They are sort of like magic weapons for casters. One of the special abilities that can be placed on a staff or wand is lore, which gives the user access to a new spell if they are weilding it. Give the sorceror a cool new spell to use, and he'll probably use it.
EDIT: Perhaps what really bores the heck out of me is debuffing. Even a small party of four can afford to dedicate one PC to just prevent the the enemy from doing anything interesting while the others grind him down. It makes every fight boring.
Perhaps you should have encounters with more than one opponent then.
Or, better yet, stop putting the party in a position where the enemies always have their weapons in hand and whatnot. Anyone with +1 BAB can draw a weapon as part of a full attack, after all. Give the NPCs improved unarmed (or spiked gauntlets...) and let them draw their weapons AFTER the "Famed Grease Sorcerer" acts. Or, hell, use knights with locked gauntlets.
Only if they have quickdraw.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move
If they've taken a move action they of course do not qualify for a full attack.
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People get wise to this tactic especially with the level of the party their tactics will be known as they will be celebrities. Adventurers are the rockstars of the fantasy world. Have a writer from Ye Olde Rolling Rocks Newspaper want to interview them and write up an article in the local paper about them including their tactics and everyone reads it. Everyone called them the Greaser Gang.
Each month they have further papers coming out detailing their exploits; they have no idea how they are getting their stories but they are uncannily accurate.
Have a rival gang pop up call them the Rockers, Skinheads or Disco Boys to offset the Greaser Gang.
People adapt, have them wrapping the grips of their weapons in sharkskin or using sand to offset the grease. Maybe it will provide a bonus to the save.
Have flames drawn on the side of their cart … other carts pulling alongside and challenging them to races at the crossroads.
Being a valid tactic have an opponent doing exactly the same to them. Maybe another sorcerer researched a greater grease spell and uses it against them. Unfortunately the knowledge of the powerful greasiness died with him …
Anything to make the game more interesting for you as if you get bored running the game then the players loose interest in playing it. This is more of an opportunity than a problem.
Have fun
Sic
Stop throwing armed humanoids at them every fight.
I'm going a different way with this.
I object to the OP's initial post. Sorcerers are, by very definition, extremely limited in their scope. They don't have a giant spellbook full of of hundreds of spells. They can't vary their tactics a whole lot.
The overwhelmingly important concept for playing a sorcerer is to find just one or two great spells and learn them, then stick to them as often as possible. That is exactly, and entirely, what sorcerers do.
The OP said he doesn't want a comparison between the sorcerer and a fighter swinging his sword but that is EXACTLY what is going on here. The fighter has a basic process that he uses constantly in every battle. Maybe he uses trips or disarms or cleaves or power attacks or whatever, but he has only a few useful tricks and he repeats them over and over and over and over.
The sorcerer is EXACTLY LIKE THAT. EXACTLY
Expecting a sorcerer to behave any differently is like expecting a soccer player to stop kicking the ball all the time. Sure, once in a while a header is needed, but the rest of the time, kicking is what they do.
Others have posted corrections on how to properly adjudicate the spell and also suggestions on how to challenge the sorcerer without using a creature subject to a Grease spell.
Ultimately, it is up to the GM to create encounters (combination of monster, other enemies, terrain, environment, hazards, etc.) that challenge the players in different ways often enough to keep the encounters feeling fresh.
Other than that, it sounds to me like maybe the OP is a bit burned out of the game in general. I might suggest to go play GURPS for a few months, give it time to return to Pathfinder and have a fresh take on it. And when you do, try banning the classes that bore you - don't like one-trick sorcerers then ban them and let those players have wizards instead. At least then they will be about a 1.5-trick caster. (i'm not trying to be mean or contentious here; it really does sound like fresh eyes on a fresh system for at least a little while might really help).
The thing is in the end. If a player is constantly using the same tactics, Its a GM's job to make it interesting again to mix it up.
A warrior to comfortable with swinging his sword constantly, make him rely on ranged weapons for a while, or rust monsters, always nice.
A sorcerer using grease? natural attacks, spells you name it, heck you could even have a single spellcaster counter him constantly if you wanted.
A character using his leadership granted friend a little to generous? domination and magic jar to mix things up.
The reason why most of these monsters and mechanics are in the game is to prevent from a single strategy dominating. So use them! :P
I do think the underlying assumption of the OP's games which (besides the rules misunderstanding) is what made this tactic powerful/useful in the first place is rather ironic... I know many more players' whose view of the game is that enemies usually tend to be 'monsters' without manufactured weapons, and they find tactics like this, or Sunder/Disarm, useless on that account. Now, I'm all for different tones of games, and lots of armed NPCs can be great, but you should recognize all the components of the problem. Constantly throwing any one particular class of enemies/challenge at the PCs is going to result in the PCs having the best tacitcs they can manage against that class of enemy routinely available in large quantity.
BTW, when the real functionality of the spell is revealed to the player, be sure to mention that Sorcerors can switch out their Spells Known every couple of levels... They aren't really meant to keep using the exact same spells ad infinitum. People saying that this is how Sorcerors are supposed to play kind of shocks me, I'm used to needing to use higher level spells to deal with decent CR'd enemies as I level up, not just keep spamming a 1st level spell. Obviously Sorcerors have relatively limited Spells Known (although I usually try to address that issue ASAP between Favored Class, Feats, and Items) but they DO gain an increasing number of spells, and to rely on exactly the same spell they had at first level DOES seem rather strange. Personally, I would be bored as the Sorceror in that scenario though, I'm not sure why this player isn't (hasn't been).
I've always as a player thought it far more effective to sunder an enemies gear rather than disarm it (if you're playing a high damage dealing character) exactly because it's easy to negate disarm tactics through this method. However, as a GM I usually would hold this punch if only because players really despise having their gear sundered.
Well sure, but when a player actively does something to make the alternative to Sunder unviable (Weapon Cord vs. Disarm), it's pretty reasonable to take that as active refusal of the GM-NPC going for the Disarm option instead of Sunder. Without that, there is an in-game basis rationale for an NPC taking the slightly more sure-thing Disarm option instead of Sunder. With Weapon Cord, no such rationale. That is entirely predictable on the players' part. And the Weapon Cord certainly makes sense for metal weapons, especially Adamantine ones. But one can't have their cake and eat it too.
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Sometimes decades of GMing experience can work against you. I'm constantly remembering older versions of the rules.
Been down that road too; called a player out for using 3d6 rather than 2d6 on a flaming sphere. Ate some humble pie. Sounds like you'll be fine once you advise you've been using an old version, and guessing the player will dig into his repertoire and try something new. But also remember that sometimes players love a certain spell or way of doing things. It's repetitive, but my same wizard player loves magic missiles. Classic spell. Could he choose a more effective spell? Is it the most efficient spell? Doesn't matter. He's the player and free to build and play as he sees fit.