Retiring "Boob Plate Armor"

[Laithoron]

Arnwyn wrote:

And why is the thread even here? Paizo is supposedly 'progressive' on this front, so...? Then I see someone bringing up "well, it's DC and DeviantArt." Well - what does that have to do with inclusion in RP games? They're not synonymous (hell, I barely even know what DeviantArt even is).

Since you missed my point in mentioning other sites let me quote myself:

Laithoron wrote:

The fact that I have to actually keep a list of artwork depicting women in reasonable armor because it's so rare in the genre as a whole just makes me wonder which Internet you guys are looking at.

Arnwyn wrote:

If there's a problem with DC and DeviantArt, then give them a ringy-ding.

The point being, Pathfinder doesn't exist in a vacuum, and its fans aren't some idyllic commune living in isolation from the rest of geek fandom. (Well, not all of us anyway.) From an outsider's point-of-view (outsiders being the people we might hope to bring into our hobby), we're going to be judged not only by our own merits and artwork, but by how the greater subculture appears.

You might look at Paizo.com as being a separate URL from DeviantArt.com or DCComics.com, etc. and think, "not our site, not our problem." Well, my point is, if half the people in my neighborhood have let their properties fall into ruin, that's not exactly helping the property value of my own house. It's hard to be a good-will ambassador to an outsider when they look at the rest of your sub-culture and wonder if your motivation is to mug them.

I believe the old saying is that "We are judged by the company we keep." Well, if we take off the Paizo-only blinders and step back for some perspective, it's not too hard to see that we tabletop gamers may be lumped together with some pretty unsavory company. So yeah, discussing inclusion issues here (at 'home' so to speak) so we can be mindful of how we present our subculture elsewhere is kind of the point.

[Arcutiys]

Laithoron wrote:

Arnwyn wrote:

And why is the thread even here? Paizo is supposedly 'progressive' on this front, so...? Then I see someone bringing up "well, it's DC and DeviantArt." Well - what does that have to do with inclusion in RP games? They're not synonymous (hell, I barely even know what DeviantArt even is).

Since you missed my point in mentioning other sites let me quote myself:

Laithoron wrote:

The fact that I have to actually keep a list of artwork depicting women in reasonable armor because it's so rare in the genre as a whole just makes me wonder which Internet you guys are looking at.

Arnwyn wrote:

If there's a problem with DC and DeviantArt, then give them a ringy-ding.

The point being, Pathfinder doesn't exist in a vacuum, and its fans aren't some idyllic commune living in isolation from the rest of geek fandom. (Well, not all of us anyway.) From an outsider's point-of-view (outsiders being the people we might hope to bring into our hobby), we're going to be judged not only by our own merits and artwork, but by how the greater subculture appears.

You might look at Paizo.com as being a separate URL from DeviantArt.com or DCComics.com, etc. and think, "not our site, not our problem." Well, my point is, if half the people in my neighborhood have let their properties fall into ruin, that's not exactly helping the property value of my own house. It's hard to be a good-will ambassador to an outsider when they look at the rest of your sub-culture and wonder if your motivation is to mug them.

I believe the old saying is that "We are judged by the company we keep." Well, if we take off the Paizo-only blinders and step back for some perspective, it's not too hard to see that we tabletop gamers may be lumped together with some pretty unsavory company. So yeah, discussing inclusion issues here (at 'home' so to speak) so we can be mindful of how we present our subculture elsewhere is kind of the point.

Why should anyone care? I literally cant think of a single thing that has a good reputation.

[Laithoron]

Well trolls generally don't care, but then that's why they live in caves and eat people, right? ;)

[Arcutiys]

Laithoron wrote:

Well trolls generally don't care, but then that's why they live in caves and eat people, right? ;)

If you think I'm a troll just for asking, flag my post and see where that gets you. Crying wolf because someone thinks you are wrong is a good way to convince people you are wrong.

[Arnwyn]

Laithoron wrote:

I believe the old saying is that "We are judged by the company we keep." Well, if we take off the Paizo-only blinders and step back for some perspective, it's not too hard to see that we tabletop gamers may be lumped together with some pretty unsavory company. So yeah, discussing inclusion issues here (at 'home' so to speak) so we can be mindful of how we present our subculture elsewhere is kind of the point.

And I said it's reaching. Your post simply reinforces my opinion. (And, indeed, this thread is nothing more than an opinions vs. opinions thread.)

I don't have any control over DC, or DeviantArt, and neither does anyone else. And, as I said - they're absolutely not synonymous. If that's going to be the brick wall preventing "inclusion", then that's an unsolvable 'problem', I'm afraid. DC and DeviantArt won't be changing to get more people to play Pathfinder. Nor should they.

Finally, as pointed out, there's something weird and freaky about almost everything - and it's pretty much uncontrollable.

Again - not seeing the point of this thread, as presented. I'm still going to go with: veiled jab at 'evil male gaze'. "Quit liking boobs!"

Pfft.

[TanithT]

Shifty wrote:

Which then asks the question about why you have a bunch of stripper minis :p

Because an uncomfortable percentage of the female minis on the market are dressed and posed in ways that strongly emphasize their skin and cleavage. It can be a real struggle to find anything I'm even vaguely willing to use on a gaming table to represent a female character that is NOT particularly sexy or sexed up.

[TanithT]

Sissyl wrote:

If there is ONE PIECE of protective wear that EVERY SINGLE PERSON working in ANY KIND OF DANGEROUS CONDITIONS wears, it's a helmet. Thinking that anyone would go adventuring without one is beyond ludicrous.

Very correct. But there isn't so much a "let's sex her up" motivation to draw people without helmets as there is to draw giant boobie plate.

Let's also not forget the trope of leaving female thighs bare. That will get people killed, too. Neither of these things makes boob plate any less stupid. It's just the most gratuitously sexualized part of the entire Armor Of Stupid set.

[Terquem]

Ah, come on, first it's the boobplate, and now I'm supposed to give up the 'freedom-thighs"?

[DrDeth]

Avalyn wrote:

Ok this is definitely off the topic of 'safe' armor, but for those who are whining that morals are subjective... Obviously this is fantasy we are talking about, but it sure would be nice if my two kids,12 and 16, that both LOVE gaming and happen to be girls wouldn't have to keep asking me to tone down what they call 'the hooker look' to the minis they use. We are always filing down and filling in for their characters and commiserating over the art and why the female baddies so often are heavily sexualized while the male ones rarely are (not that that makes it ok for my kids or less sad). Rated R gaming just doesn't need to be the norm.

It is just sad that for a game genre that started before I was born we are still having to argue about why its not ok to publicly objectify women as a matter of course. Do whatever you want in your home game, but don't expect to be respected by any intelligent self-respecting women who sit down to game with you for it.

You are really, honestly complaining that Seelah is dressing in ‘the hooker look”? Man, your town must have some tough hookers, that’s all I can say.

And, as pointed out as many of the iconics are beefcake as are cheesecake. Women enjoy beefcake as much as men enjoy cheesecake. Unless you’re saying my SO isn’t a “intelligent self-respecting woman”? Rather insulting to say that you are the arbiter for all womanhood and that no woman can enjoy looking at a buffed male bod.

You do know The CEO of Paizo is Lisa Stevens?

The Senior Art Director: Sarah Robinson?

Graphic Designer: Sonja Morris?
Graphic Designer: Emily Crowell?
Project Manager: Jessica Price?

I'd have to say they are all "intelligent self-respecting women". Not to mention my personal fave Jenny.

But yeah, all that art is done by guys for guys. All guys.

[TanithT]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Tell you what. I'll believe all this oh-so-sensitive concern about the evil male boob-gazing when I walk into a grocery store and stop seeing "women's magazines" with actresses and models wearing the most provocative clothing possible (sometimes NO clothing) and posing in the most suggestive ways possible.

No one has said that male gaze is evil, any more than the flavor of chocolate is evil. Having chocolate available in ice cream shops is only a problem when that is all there is, and the people who like vanilla or strawberry are told that their flavor preferences are unimportant and they must be calling chocolate lovers evil for wanting ice cream shops to stop serving nothing but chocolate. The ice cream shop is already more than 90% chocolate, but the chocolate lovers get mad at people who dare to ask that there be more vanilla or strawberry, because that's just not fair to chocolate lovers and those people are just trying to be politically correct.

No, we're just bloody tired of being dipped in chocolate, thanks. Move over and make some room already. Our flavor preferences matter, too.

When an RPG game product is overwhelmingly for and about the male gaze, it's problematic because that says to women, "Get lost, this game is a men's club, it's not for you, we don't want you to play unless you're willing to be an object of gaze."

The RPG industry didn't start the fire. It is a media bombardment that starts hitting girls very early on in their lives. Do you have any actual clue how it feels? I'm guessing not.

Quote:

This idea that boob display and interest is exclusively a male thing is laughably naive and ignorant.

The game, should you choose to play it, is that male gaze is the measure of scoring and your body is the object of it. The game is pretty pervasive and entrenched, and it can be difficult to succeed at many life pursuits without being willing to play it.

Not everyone is willing to play it or to have their body scored as an object. For some women it can feel empowering and positive, for others it feels very negative. Being subject to body judgment from strangers whether you consent to it or not is a very creepy experience, especially when it is utterly pervasive and can affect literally all aspects of a woman's life.

Quote:

Again, back to my original post on this. I work in a typical professional environment. I NEVER see men wearing provocative clothing, and I see women doing so EVERY DAMN DAY. As far as I know nobody is MAKING them wear that crap, but they wear it proudly.

When women start acting as if this stuff truly matters to them, maybe then I'll start worrying about it myself.

You realize your argument basically boils down to, "But look how she was dressed! She was totally asking for it!"

Is anyone holding a gun to a woman's head and making her display herself attractively as an object of gaze? Likely not. But there is massive social pressure to meet media expectations of what she must look like and dress like, and positive attention rewards. Males on the other hand are shamed or bullied if they transgress gender lines in order to display themselves as sexual objects of gaze. Generally they would be called a derogatory word for a male homosexual, even if their intent is to be attractive to female gaze.

Culture is a powerful force. To some extent we get choices as to how we shape our own culture and media, and the messages we want to send about who is welcome and who is not, who is the subject and who is the object. Do you really want to argue for perpetuating mainstream media choices and social pressures, on purpose, in RPG culture?

[thejeff]

TanithT wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

If there is ONE PIECE of protective wear that EVERY SINGLE PERSON working in ANY KIND OF DANGEROUS CONDITIONS wears, it's a helmet. Thinking that anyone would go adventuring without one is beyond ludicrous.

Very correct. But there isn't so much a "let's sex her up" motivation to draw people without helmets as there is to draw giant boobie plate.

Let's also not forget the trope of leaving female thighs bare. That will get people killed, too. Neither of these things makes boob plate any less stupid. It's just the most gratuitously sexualized part of the entire Armor Of Stupid set.

Though when it comes to miniatures and full plate, a large part of the point of boobplate is simply to identify the miniature as female. Seriously, at that scale, in full armor, what else have you got?

Of course, that suggests that part of the solution might be just to drop the boobs from the plate and assume that all/most armor clad figures could be either sex as needed.

[Arcutiys]

TanithT wrote:

Move over and make some room already.

I'm not in your friggin game asking you to wear boobplate, now am I? How about you move over and make your own g## d+*n table.

[TanithT]

Terquem wrote:

Ah, come on, first it's the boobplate, and now I'm supposed to give up the 'freedom-thighs"?

Nobody is asking you to give up anything. Anyone who likes any flavor of porn can have that flavor of porn. That's pretty much what the Internet is for. There is Rule 34 of everything.

Porn of any flavor can get problematic at the gaming table, especially in a mixed group where some folks are the ones being porn-ified at the expense of making their characters look stupid and ornamental rather than serious. So don't bring the porn to the gaming table, unless your table is all consenting adults and everyone has said that this is what they want.

Are you gaming with consenting adults of compatible orientation flavors? Bring on the porn. ALL THE PORN. Not a problem. Have fun. No one cares.

If this does not describe your situation, character sexualization is very likely to to cause issues and problems and creepy feelings, and it will probably make some people feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.

[Terquem]

Everything is going to be fine, really.

I honestly get and do not get why you seem so serious about this.

[TanithT]

Arcutiys wrote:

TanithT wrote:

Move over and make some room already.

I'm not in your friggin game asking you to wear boobplate, now am I? How about you move over and make your own g+# d&*n table.

You would certainly not be at my gaming table. But you are in my game, telling me loudly and angrily that what I experience doesn't matter and your desire to have it your way trumps anyone else's desire to be able to play a female character that is not sexed up for someone else's fantasy.

And people wonder why it's hard to get their girlfriends to play RPG's, or why they get stereotyped as virgin nerds who can't relate to real women if they tell co-workers they play this game.

[Freehold DM]

If I like it, I rule 34 it, myself. That's just me. Some people keep wide gulfs between sex and things they like.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking. There have been threads on this before, and this one doesn't appear to be going anywhere productive. Hostility/personal insults are not helpful in any conversation, also.