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Howdy everyone.
I was wondering if i can get some help here. I have join in a newly group. I am task with a starting build for a character of my choice of any race of a +1 ECL.
I have 92 points to buy with. the buy is one for one. *before race abilities.
I get to choose of 3 traits.
gestalt = 2 classes as one. so like fighter + rogue. Thing is you get the better of the two. so like the HP is a 10 for a fighter and the HP is a 8 for the rogue. so I would get a 10 for the HP. same with the saves/attack bonus/skill point and so on. But special abilities you get both from both classes like the fighter and rogue. as the example above.
what my question is how would you create for such idea. would a fighter/cleric, bard/fighter, druid/fighter and so on. what would be the best combination as a gestalt?
Any race is find as long it can not go past +1 ECL.
any alignments is allow.
one player is using a half-fiend template. he is wanting claws and wings. this is where i am lost on choosing a race that can be better than the half-fiend template. i need help with some ideas.
Can any of you help me out with some draft ideas.
Paladin//Bard for crazy Sound Striker Smiting fun
Druid//Monk can use various shenanigans to flurry with a T-Rex's Strong Jawed, Improve Natural Attacked Bite AND wear Wild Dragonhide Full Plate while simultaneously getting the Monk AC bonus (since you're not actually wearing armor when wild shaped)
Oracle//Sorcerer for ALL the spells
Not the most powerful, but what I might do:
White Haired Witch//Tetori Monk
Keep in mind with gestalt:
1. You still get the same number of actions per turn, so having a class that's more "active" paired with a more "passive" one is best. Active means that the class's basic functions require near constant use of your actions, the most prime example being a spellcaster. Passive means it grants you always-on abilities/defenses. Things like feats, or damage reduction, or weapon training.
2. You can easily end up Multiple Ability Dependent in normal games as it is; take great care in gestalt to not end up needing to have 5 or even 6 ability scores high, you'll spread yourself too thin. Any synergy between the classes of an ability score (like Paladin//Sorcerer using Cha for spells and save bonuses) is welcome.
3. You are overlapping the better of the two classes, so if possible avoid picking two classes with identical BAB, base saves, HD, and skill points. That's just a waste.
4. It's not required, but IMO the best gestalt builds have primary spellcasting on one side. Casting is just so much power and versatility, and gestalt is letting you have that and still be martial-oriented if you like.
What would you want to play? Good PF gestalt combos include:
Wizard//Mindchemist Alchemist: Int synergy and int-boosting. Add Vivisectionist and you have a quasi-Arcane Trickster. d8 HD, all good saves, medium BAB, 4 + int skills.
Barbarian//Scarred Witch Doctor: Tremendous Con-synergy, you'll have the highest hp of anyone, guaranteed. And you can still use hexes while raging. d12 HD, good fort/will, full BAB, 4 + int skills.
Paladin//Sorcerer: Lots of charisma-synergy. d10 HD, good fort/will, full BAB, 2 + int skills.
Paladin//Bard: Ditto. d10 HD, all good saves, full BAB, 6 + int skills.
Paladin//Oracle: Ditto again. d10 HD, good fort/will, full BAB, 4 + int skills.
Druid//(Master of Many Styles) Monk: Lots of overlap, but worth it for wis to AC and the ability to pounce (wildshape), full unarmed attack, then deliver all natural attacks 2ndary. Use MoMS because flurry doesn't let you add naturals to the end; TWF itself has no such restriction if you want to take them as feats. d8 HD, all good saves, medium BAB, 4 + int skills.
Wizard//Ranger: Complement each other surprisingly well, including the spell lists. Also works for Sorcerer, but Cha is usually a ranger dump stat. d10 HD, all good saves, full BAB, 6 + int skills.
Gunslinger//Alchemist: Get more arms to wield/reload pistols! Use mutagen to buff dex for attack and damage with the guns! Take Vivisectionist to add sneak attack to your already disgusting deadly aim touch attack damage output! d10 HD, good fort/reflex, full BAB, 4 + int skills.
Doing a Monk/Sorcerer can work pretty well I think.
Especially since on a 92 PB where the stats are 1 for 1 instead of scaling means I'm pretty sure you can have all 18's with points to spare so you don't even need to make it Empyreal, go for something that gives some neat abilities.
Basically you're free to do something super MAD because your stat allocation is effectively irrelevant here.
What are your favorite classes normally?
Cleric/Paladin is fairly manly. OOOH Cleric/Inquisitor would be really cool. Both have wisdom as casting stats. Inquisitors give Clerics tons of cool swift actions to play with, not to mention boosting their combat ability.
92 points on a 1-for-1 would be 15 1/3 points per stat, distributed evenly.
You could do 18 18 18 18 10 10 or 18 16 16 16 16 10, though. (Among other combinations)
Going for a build that needs all 6 stats is still not a good idea. Less painful than a normal game, but still something to avoid.
EDIT: And initial stats is only one piece of the puzzle. There's also racial mods, the +1 point per 4 levels, and stat items (where trying to get two or three different boosts out of the same belt or headband gets stupidly expensive very fast). The game is structured such that MAD characters are penalized at every turn. You're better off having one or two stats you can focus on, largely to the exclusion of all others.
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I have to assume this is a joke or something. You have enough of a point buy for four 18's, are gestalt, get an extra trait, AND a free ECL?
And on top of that, you want help making something optimal?
I agree that you're asking for help building a perfect character. However, assuming this isn't a joke, the best martial combo is going to be Invulnerable Rager Barbarian/Lame Oracle of Battle (18s,16d,16c,10i,16w,16c). Pick up war sight and surprising charge for revelations, and beast totem and the spell sunder line for rage powers. You can self buff, very little magic hurts you or stops you, you can rage cycle, and you full attack almost every turn (if your DM likes difficult terrain add in dragon style). Suli excel for this combo.
I know it's not as popular, but combining two full casting classes makes you a game breaker imho. Combining wizard and cleric (10s,18d,18c,18i,18w,10c) gives you access to almost every spell in the game, and going diviner(foresight)/whatever you like (I like magic: arcane or travel) means you go first and if you've invested in scrolls you can handle any situation that comes up. Samsarans with the past life racial trait not only get a dex and wis boost, but you can pick the few spells you are missing and add them to your list.
There are other fun options to explore (like rouge/cavalier and two weapon fighting for both challenge damage and sneak attack using your mount companion as a flanking buddy, or summoner/druid and running a cadre of beasties) but those are the two major powerhouses.
If you combine Alchemist with Barbarian and grow two additional arms then you can wield two 2-handed weapons for many attacks with 1,5x Str to damage.
The Mutagen and Rage stack nicely making for an incredible damage combo.
Or you could just wield one weapon with 2 hands, and use the other hands for a shield and to throw bombs.
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Paladin//Bard for crazy Sound Striker Smiting fun
Druid//Monk can use various shenanigans to flurry with a T-Rex's Strong Jawed, Improve Natural Attacked Bite AND wear Wild Dragonhide Full Plate while simultaneously getting the Monk AC bonus (since you're not actually wearing armor when wild shaped)
Oracle//Sorcerer for ALL the spells
Not the most powerful, but what I might do:
White Haired Witch//Tetori Monk
I like the druid/monk idea. for the animal companion any thing better of choice? which is better the Master of many styles or the four winds. which would be better for the archetype monk. i did throw on the Advance template for the +1 ECL
92 points on a 1-for-1 would be 15 1/3 points per stat, distributed evenly.
You could do 18 18 18 18 10 10 or 18 16 16 16 16 10, though. (Among other combinations)
How did you get this "low" stats? 92 Points is -18 18 18 18 18 15-(17*5+7 =85+7)
You could go Wizard/Monk you got the stats to pull it off, put the 15 into Charisma, the rest could be 18s.
If you wanna go for highlevel you'd still be to MAD, and would need to many stat enhancers.
Take one of the famous Gestalt builds listed in the other threads.
Synthesist summoner + monk =D
Seriously, this. THIS.
The Synthesist is almost on par with gestalt to begin with.
Add monk and you have a true monster that is also a 3/4 caster ++ (++ because the summoner spell-list is actually boosted).
Saves are going to be re-donk-culous.
I just don't want to start the maths on the FoB with natural weapons, but if you pick multiattack earlier than the free lev 9 bonus feat from Synthesist, you will have 3 to 5 secondary natural attacks on top of your iteratives unarmed strikes, which you can FoB with ?
You can fall back to spellcasting for fun, but since you'll be flying at level 5, you will pounce/full attack everything to death in no time.
EDIT: about your point buy, while 6*18's before racials would be 108 pts, 92 pts gives you 18 con/wis/int/cha, and 10 str and dex. Those str and dex get replaced by the eidolon anyway. And the 18 con helps for when eidolon suit gets smashed. See synthesist threads for this "summoner's con should be higher than the eidolon's" advice.
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92 points on a 1-for-1 would be 15 1/3 points per stat, distributed evenly.
You could do 18 18 18 18 10 10 or 18 16 16 16 16 10, though. (Among other combinations)
How did you get this "low" stats? 92 Points is -18 18 18 18 18 15-(17*5+7 =85+7)
You could go Wizard/Monk you got the stats to pull it off, put the 15 into Charisma, the rest could be 18s.
If you wanna go for highlevel you'd still be to MAD, and would need to many stat enhancers.
Take one of the famous Gestalt builds listed in the other threads.
On a one for one pt buy 18+18+18+18+10+10= 92 points. your 18s and a 15=105. 5X18=90+15=105
92 points on a 1-for-1 would be 15 1/3 points per stat, distributed evenly.
You could do 18 18 18 18 10 10 or 18 16 16 16 16 10, though. (Among other combinations)
How did you get this "low" stats? 92 Points is -18 18 18 18 18 15-(17*5+7 =85+7)
92 points / 6 attributes = 15.333 per attribute.
It depends on what "92 points to buy with. the buy is one for one" actually means. If the stats start at 0 and have to be bought up at one for one from the 92 points, StreamOfTheSky is correct.
I recon that having the possibility to get a +4 to all your stats on top of starting 18's before race mods make the eidolon look pale as far as physical stats are concerned.
I am not familiar with this kind of template or special races at ECL +1. But looks like any race is a sucky option compared to +4 to all stats. Only so much you can get from darkvision, daylight as SLA, or minor SR.
if you're going for a melee build, honestly you cant go wrong with the other half of your gestalt be fighter; it's simple, straightforward, and solid. its also not likely to conflict with your more unique class' actions, and if your other half is a 3/4 BAB class (such as magus or inquisitor) or has a bad fort save, it can help bolster it nicely.
for spellcasting there's the age-old wizard/cleric, sage sorc/cleric, and sorc/oracle combos, though things like wizard/witch and sorc/sumoner can be quite nifty.
and for mixers you've got things like bard/any CHA-centric class, druid/monk, etc.
personally my catchall "adventurer" build is a (whatever AT i want) fighter/(archaeologist) bard. competent at a great many things, and quite self-sufficient--also doesn't suffer as much from the "master of none" bit, since you can still stab things with the best of them.
A Cleric/Zen Archer would be interesting. Boost Wisdom through the roof to improve your spell casting, chance to hit, AC, Ki pool. Strength would be almost as important for good damage. You will want a good Con for HP and saves. DEX needs to be at least 13 for deadly aim, but does not need to be much higher. INT and CHA are not really that important.
The cleric spell list has some of the best buffing spell in the game. More importantly they have a lot of spells that give luck and sacred bonus so you can stack the bonus with the normal moral and enchantment bonuses for some truly impressive results. Abundant Ammunition combined with greater magic weapon means you can get bows and arrows with special abilities without having to sacrifice your chance to hit or damage.
Fighter/Rogue. Ability scores (pre-racial) of Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, and Cha 14. For a human would wind up being (if I were doing it) Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16 (14 base +2 race), Wis 16, and Cha 14. You start with 3 feats (level 1 base, +1 human, +1 fighter), 13 hit points (10 base + 3 con modifier), saves of Fort +5, Reflex +5, and Will +3, a BAB of +1, all simple and martial weapons, all armors and shields, +1d6 sneak attack, and 14 skill points.
Spend a feat on Iron Will, then go to town.
Is it as sexy as a caster/martial combo? Nope. But tell me it wouldn't be fun as heck to play!
MA
Is it as sexy as a caster/martial combo? Nope. But tell me it wouldn't be fun as heck to play!
It wouldn't be, because every other character is going to be sexier.
Of course, I'm an advocate of combining Fighter and Rogue anyway, in the base system, so of course it's going to look like an awful gestalt.
I would want to play a paladin//rogue: All good saves, Cha to saves, evasion, lots of immunities, smite + sneak attack (maybe 2 weapon fighting shield basher), lots of skills, healing, some spells.
Maybe a rogue//inquisitor with Imp Init, Reactionary, Dex AND Wis to Init and always go first.
Magus//Druid to combine flame blade with spell combat/spellstrike. Or druid//rogue with dervish dance.
Barbarian//alchemist: Rage + Mutagen + Enlarge Person = +10 to Strength at 1st level, +14 at 4th with Bull Strength. At 20th, +8 Grand Mutagen, +8 Rage, +8 Size from Giant Form, +6 Item = +30 Strength, Probably +40 counting Inherent bonuses and levels up. Assume 20 for racial at 1st, and that is 60 Strength. +25 modifier! Probably +50 to hit!
Zen Archer Monk and Empyreal Sorcerer. Aasimar. Half-celestial template.
Fighter/Rogue. Ability scores (pre-racial) of Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, and Cha 14. For a human would wind up being (if I were doing it) Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16 (14 base +2 race), Wis 16, and Cha 14. You start with 3 feats (level 1 base, +1 human, +1 fighter), 13 hit points (10 base + 3 con modifier), saves of Fort +5, Reflex +5, and Will +3, a BAB of +1, all simple and martial weapons, all armors and shields, +1d6 sneak attack, and 14 skill points.
Spend a feat on Iron Will, then go to town.
Is it as sexy as a caster/martial combo? Nope. But tell me it wouldn't be fun as heck to play!
MA
yep, all those armors and shields. doesnt it lose those rogue powers (like evasion/uncanny dodge) while its wearing the heavier stuff though?
I have always been a fan of monk/gunslinger gestalt for an all range battler, throw in advanced and a garuda blooded aasimar, and I think your set.
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Try this for Fighter/Rogue. 2 Handed Fighter/Skulking Slayer Scout Rogue. The combo gets really really disgusting at level 3. When you aren't flanking you have the armor of a Pally and the Skills of a Ranger, and double your str. to damage things. When you are flanking, you get an extra 2d8 damage that scales up to 10d8. Focus on a Nodachi and watch everything you hit die very very quickly.
yep, all those armors and shields. doesnt it lose those rogue powers (like evasion/uncanny dodge) while its wearing the heavier stuff though?Fighter/Rogue. Ability scores (pre-racial) of Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, and Cha 14. For a human would wind up being (if I were doing it) Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16 (14 base +2 race), Wis 16, and Cha 14. You start with 3 feats (level 1 base, +1 human, +1 fighter), 13 hit points (10 base + 3 con modifier), saves of Fort +5, Reflex +5, and Will +3, a BAB of +1, all simple and martial weapons, all armors and shields, +1d6 sneak attack, and 14 skill points.
Spend a feat on Iron Will, then go to town.
Is it as sexy as a caster/martial combo? Nope. But tell me it wouldn't be fun as heck to play!
MA
Elven chain (5,150 gp) is your friend. Counts as light armor, so evasion and uncanny dodge work. And your wizard/sorcerer/cleric pals can enchant it normally.
MA
do NOT listen to the suggestion to make a synthesist! they're normally less good than a regular summoner (because of the action economy) and your point buy is sooooo high that your stats will drop when melded with your eidolon. similarly, classes with pets (like summoners and druids) excel in low powered games (when the pets are closer in power to the PCs) and become worse and worse as the PCs power level rises (making the pets relatively ineffective and fragile)- so you probably don't want one of those.
with this many points you can make just about any combo because it doesn't matter if you're MAD. if (since) you're looking to min/max, the +1 ECL for the advanced template is totally worth it! after that the question is just, "what do you want to play?" if you want to be a serious melee guy, combo fighter or barb with any 3/4 BAB melee class (that way you have full BAB and serious combat prowess from fighter/bard, and all the special abilities from the other class)- with this many points, i'd think seriously about a monk:
str 24; dex 22; con22; int 14; wis 24; cha 12
fight with a guisarme, take combat reflexes and all the trip feats especially fury's fall (at 6th level you should be at like +25 to trip); also take power attack (to up your damage) and felling smash
if you just want to wield ultimate cosmic power, you could double up on full-casting classes, as long as you trust the rest of the party to protect you. or even go cleric/oracle with high Con for a more survivable casty-cast. if you want an actually tough caster:
str 14; dex 22; con 24; int 14; wis 22; cha 24
take fey foundling at 1st level; defenses not much better than standard sorc (except while smiting), but TONS of swift action healing and a lot of HP
if you want to be fighty-caster (as opposed to a casty-fighter):
str 22; dex 24; con 22; int 24; wis 14; cha 12
you could go for a dervish dance build but your Str is so high its unnecessary- plan to 2hand your scimitar whenever you're not using spell combat (still use scimitar though, just for the crit range- make it keen right away) and take broad study ASAP- look forward to combining disintegrate with your keen scimitar
that's all i have time for right now... i might post some later if you find this interesting/useful...
I play a dwarf barbarian 1/magus 5 that's lots of fun...I imagine a barbarian//magus would be pretty sick. Self-buff, then rage! Or save some rage and use spell combat. Probably want Moment of Clarity rege power ASAP so you can pause rage and cast.
A magus//witch might be interesting. Lots of hexes and magus arcana, and the spells!
A druid//rogue with those grapply/sneak attacky feats might be fun. Can also combine produce flame and flame blade at low levels for ranged touch and melee touch sneak attacks. I like to combine Rapid Shot with produce flame....
The most powerful character possible is probably still a caster. Either something with a stupid number of spells (wizard / sage sorcerer, anyone?) or something that's a regular full caster with its weaknesses significantly shored up. (paladin/sorcerer? druid/monk?)
obviously, every campaign is different (so YMMV) but i just played an elemental sorcerer/blackened flame oracle in a gestalt campaign and it actually wasn't a great combo... i mean, i never had to worry about running out of spells (and knew a good variety) but the weaknesses were glaring. i think i had the lowest HP in the party, with the sorc armor restrictions i had the worst AC in the party, and only one good save. after that experience, i think you really are better off with 1 full caster and something to shore up its weaknesses.
if you combine ranger with any caster you have d10 hp, all good saves, tons of skills (especially as an Int based caster)- plus full BAB, free feats, and other special abilities; AC might still be a little bit of an issue for arcane casters though. fighter levels won't get you a good ref save (or nearly as many skills) but they get so many feats that things like the arcane armor feats aren't too costly (though they do limit your ability to add quickened spells if you play to high level), and really let you take advantage of shapeshifting builds- if your GM allows PrCs at all, a fighter/duelist//full arcane caster would be a nice combo for canny defense.
a monk will combo really well with an arcane caster- you miss out on full BAB and d10 hp but your AC will be head and shoulders above most other casters, and all good saves; in most campaigns i'd suggest using an empyreal sorc for the wisdom synergy, but your stats are so high you could really use any caster. and, as i mentioned in my previous post- a paladin grants d10 hp, huge bonus to all saves, and potentially a lot of swift self-healing (plus a big AC boost when you smite).
Gestalt just to goes to show you how awesome the ranger is: Full BAB, 2 good saves, d10 HD, 6+ skill ranks per level, REALLY USEFUL class skills (Perception, Stealth, Survival, a bunch of Knowledges), and some great class abilities: bonus feats, CLW wands, evasion, track, etc. But it isn't overpowered, especially since its offensive abilities are particularly focused (favored enemy, favored terrain, combat style).
You should definitely be part caster in gestalt, but I must say one of my favorite parts of gestalt is that it actually bridges the caster-martial divide significantly. And no, not just because "every martial is a caster, too" (though that helps :) ).
While a lot of numbers improve in gestalt, the one that IME is most notable is saves. Gestalting basically guarantees at least two good saves, and three isn't uncommon. Considering the best thing a caster can do is go after weak saves, this proves quite the hindrance to him! (And other defenses like Evasion become more common, too) Possibly worse, if the DM *doesn't* gestalt his monsters/NPC's...they gain more HD. Which means saves go up anyway, and if they have it... SR.
But wait, there's more! The thing with spells that's usually good is, you get what it says on the tin. A summoned celestial tiger will always have X hp and do Y average damage (give or take some buffs/debuffs). A wall of fire likewise is the same. Whether the game is 10 point buy and no magic items, or 50 point buy and quadruple wealth by level. The take away here is: As the game becomes more "high powered," spells lose some ground to the meat shields. I say it all the time ("the single best way to lessen caster-martial imbalance is to run a super high powered game"), but no one ever believes me. Since gestalt is one of the highest powered options there is, of course it's going to make the martials seem better and casters a tad less impressive.
I say it all the time ("the single best way to lessen caster-martial imbalance is to run a super high powered game"), but no one ever believes me.I would totally believe that. The power of a spell is set, the power of a martial scales with the power level of the game. This is also why for insanely low-powered games pets and summons rule.
Absolutely. The problem is that, literally over 90% of DMs seem to think the exact opposite. They think running some sort of grimdark "low powered" game with few to no magic items or horrible point buy or stat roll rules and "you roll for hp, and keep even 1's" and the like... actually somehow makes the game less imbalanced.
It's wildly illogical and infuriating. And I'm not even going to get into the common houserule of critical fumbles...
Neither the caster's pet he gets as a tertiary class feature, nor the monsters he summons, should be stronger than the PCs in actual martial classes!
Half-Orc mix Scarred Witch Doctor and popular-type superstitious Barbarian. Max CON then STR.
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Hey guys thanks for post on these topics.
I have another question:
I am going with a Dragonrider and a Fighter gestalt. what is better to set up my feat tree for 20 levels.
I am thinking of going with a power attack 2 handed, or a archery path?
Human (I think 21 feats?) Please select on the feats. Any traits that might help? 3x traits?
Race bonus feat.
1st level:
3rd level:
5th level:
7th level:
9th level:
11th level:
13th level:
15th level:
17th level:
19th level:
1st fighter:
2nd fighter:
4th fighter:
6th fighter:
8th fighter:
10th fighter:
12th fighter:
14th fighter:
16th fighter:
18th fighter:
20th fighter:
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Hey guys thanks for post on these topics.
I have another question:
I am going with a Dragonrider and a Fighter gestalt. what is better to set up my feat tree for 20 levels.
I am thinking of going with a power attack 2 handed, or a archery path?
Human (I think 21 feats?) Please select on the feats. Any traits that might help? 3x traits?
Race bonus feat.
1st level:
3rd level:
5th level:
7th level:
9th level:
11th level:
13th level:
15th level:
17th level:
19th level:1st fighter:
2nd fighter:
4th fighter:
6th fighter:
8th fighter:
10th fighter:
12th fighter:
14th fighter:
16th fighter:
18th fighter:
20th fighter:
since no-one reply to this post. I'll try a new thread post for this question.