Combat Checks and "Changing" a skill once.

[Detrimus]

I've already posed this question to BGG, but I figure it won't hurt to post here as well.

The question I have is regarding how the language in the rulebook doesn't explicitly state you can't use both a quarterstaff and force missile, among other combinations, during a combat check. And while I'm sure the intention is that you *can't*, the word "change" is where the fundamental problem lies.

Looking at the rulebook under "Attempting Checks," it states:

"Cards that require a skill check specify the skills you can use to attempt the check. Monsters often call for a combat check."

"'Check to Defeat' and 'Check to Acquire' are followed by one more more skills; you may use any of the skills listed for your check."

So, let's look at a Goblin Pyro-

Check to Defeat: Combat (9)

With the above quoted rules in mind, the word "combat" must be considered a skill.

If we look at a Large Chest-

Check to Defeat: Dexterity / Disable (9) or Strength / Melee (10)

The Large chest may be defeated with either the Dexterity/Disable skills or the Strength/Melee skills.

Continuing on:

By default, "...if you don't play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill." Combat may be achieved by simply rolling your strength die, which every character has.

"Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use."

Playing a quarterstaff uses the same Strength or Melee die, thus for the combat check, the skill being used hasn't changed from the default Strength die.

Then, adding in a force missile, now changes the die to an arcane die. This is the first, formal change to the skill being used.

So, what I was getting hung up on is the word "change" and how the first card you're playing doesn't seem to change anything, but simply set what your first check was going to be. So by using a quarterstaff you're using your strength die, then by using a force missile you are now changing the strength die to an arcane check (die).

Essentially, it seems to me, that the first combat check card being played, whether it's a weapon or spell, isn't changing anything so much as it's initiating it. For something to be changed, there has to be something in place prior to it.

[TClifford]

The base rules state that a combat check can only be done with either a STR or DEX die modified by the Melee or Ranged skill. This reflects everyone's ability to pick up a sword or throw a dagger. You normally can't use your INT, WIS, or CHA for a combat check.

The spell changes this and allows you to use your Arcane check for a combat check. You can't specify which ability [INT or DEX] to use because different spell casters use different abilities for their Arcane checks.

Ultimately, [no matter how many times you want to ask the question], it comes down to one simple rule, you can only use one card that sets the combat check. You can only state what combat check you are going to do. Say you have a Quarterstaff, a Short Bow, and Force Lightning. One of those is going to dictate what the combat check is going to be. STR/Melee, DEX/Ranged, or Arcane, but once you state that, you can't then use one of the others on that check.

So, if you are going to use the quarterstaff, then you have to make a STR/Melee base roll modified with additional dice from the quarterstaff. Now you can use spells on that check, but not spells that then change what ability/skill you are using for the base check. So you can cast Strength to add +3 to the STR check, but not Force Missile....or go ahead and cast Force Missile, but then the base combat check changes from STR/Melee to an Arcane check and you wasted your use of the Quarterstaff because the Quarterstaff only modifies a STR/Melee combat check.

[QuantumNinja]

Yes, this is one area where the language in the rulebook is not as precise as it should be, in my opinion.

In this case, there's a discrepancy between a literal interpretation of the written rules and the designers' intentions.

It's been stated that you can only use one power/card of the form "For your combat check, roll X..." when making a combat check. That's the designers' intent. But I agree that that is not clear in the rulebook.

There's a few other ambiguities in that same section of the rulebook that I've been drilling down on lately (not to be a jerk, but to boost my own understanding of the rules and to provide feedback to the design team so that they can hopefully sort out these kind of kinks now and in the future).

[Entice]

Both the Force Missile and Quarter staff say "For your combat check..."

Neither of them add dice to a check, so they cannot add on to each other.

They both replace your combat check with what is printed on the card. You are changing "strength die" with "strength die +1d6". The base die is not changing, but the entire skill is.

It doesn't make much thematic sense either to be able to beat them over the head with a staff at the same time you are casting a spell.

[Myriade]

And since the Force Missile changes the check for Arcane, you can't use the quaterstaff because it applies to STR/Melee and you're not doing a STR/Melee check anymore, you're doing a Arcane check. I think the riules about that are perfectly clear and logical.

[Vic Wertz]

Entice wrote:

They both replace your combat check with what is printed on the card.

This. And since you can only play one card or use one power to do that, you can't play both cards.

[Detrimus]

Thanks for the replies, makes more sense.