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How do you deal with players who hate starting at 1st level? James Jacobs has mentioned that he likes his PCs starting as 1st level and advancing to high levels through the story. I like the same setup, as I feel it contributes greatly to the sense of growth and the advancement of a plot, but one of my best roleplaying friends absolutely hates starting at 1st level because the builds he likes to use often don't start being effective until they're at a higher level.
For example, what he wants to is to be the Clint Eastwood vigilante cowboy kind of figure, specifically referencing Pale Rider as his inspiration, for Wrath of the Righteous, but since the Holy Gun archetype is somewhat difficult to utilize when comparatively to a character who has 1 level of Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger and 4 levels of Divine Hunter Paladin will ultimately do the same thing the archetype does better. I recommended this build to him, but he stated that as a result he wouldn't be able to start the game as a paladin, because I'm such a putz for always making the characters start at first level. In his mind, the game doesn't start being fun until about tenth level or so, arguing that the kinds of characters you see in TV shows and movies never start out at 1st level (with the exception of Luke Skywalker, but he was always more partial to Han Solo anyway). More specific to his concept, no Clint Eastwood movie ever had the protagonist learning how to shoot a gun or things like that. He'd just ride into town, already hypercompetent, and beats the crap out of anyone who looks at him funny.
He also has a gripe about me saying "early firearms only" as that's what the standard for Golarion is. He claims that early firearms are worthless because of their long reload time and single-shot qualities, and that multiple shot early firearms (the pepperbox) are too risky as they have greater chances of misfire and exploding. While I think his concept is unbelievably cool, Golarion simply hasn't invented the iconic cowboy revolver yet.
I've argued with him about this before, and I'd really like to work things out with him, but unless we come to an agreement, he's probably going to ditch the concept.
Perhaps he'd be interested in using retraining to start as a Holy Gun and become a Gunslinger/Divine Hunter at level 5?
Edit: I know that doesn't address the real issue, but I simply can't find a way to really address the issue of his perceptions, especially when the story of APs generally assumes starting at first level.
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My advice to him:
Play something else during the first 4 levels a "sacrificial lamb" if you will. Then when the players hit level 5 have his "mysterious stranger" show up aid the party (sadly it was too late for poor Redshirt McGinty. That way he can be invested in the campaign at level 1 AND have his "badass shows up at an opportune moment" moment.
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sadly it was too late for poor Redshirt McGinty.
Bonus points if Redshirt McGinty was a town guard only two days away from retirement.
How do you deal with players who hate starting at 1st level?
I don't start at the 1st level if my players don't want to. It's a little more tricky if it's just one guy being whiny, but if everyone wants to start at 2nd level I wouldn't even miss a blink over skipping 1st.
I recommended this build to him, but he stated that as a result he wouldn't be able to start the game as a paladin
I do have to sympathize with this one; the inability to multi-class with 1st level characters is one of the more annoying things with Pathfinder.
In this case, I'd offer to allow him to take weapon proficiency (firearms) at the 1st level, then get to retrain it for free when he gets around to multi-classing.
In his mind, the game doesn't start being fun until about tenth level or so, arguing that the kinds of characters you see in TV shows and movies never start out at 1st level (with the exception of Luke Skywalker, but he was always more partial to Han Solo anyway).
Not entirely true.
People tend to under-estimate the power of 1st level characters, mainly because the Pathfinder game contains a lot of very powerful monsters. Other settings don't necessarily contain such powerful antagonists, or their equivalents may be far weaker than equivalents from the Pathfinder rules (for instance, animals in Pathfinder are way deadlier than their real-world counterparts). If you actually look at what they are portrayed as doing, many such protagonists and antagonists don't do anything beyond what a 1st level character is capable of.
Second of all, just as a lot of characters do indeed begin at higher levels, a lot of characters from these stories also do not increase significantly in power throughout their story. In fact, in the vast majority of movies you will never seen a character deviate substantially in skill from the baseline established earlier on. Often if they do it's going from zero to hero (ie, 1st level commoner to a higher-level character with class levels).
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Here's his personal opinions:
"I get that, but if I'd end up being stuck with such abysmal weapons I don't think I'm going to use firearms. The last thing you need at first level is a weapon that will destroy itself and possibly kill you in the process. If a game is starting at level 1, using early firearms is easily a death sentence. And it's only viable if you play a human, without rapid reload you can only attack every other round. No one wants to play a pathetically weak ranged attacker for several levels. Without advanced firearms, gunslinger is a suicide class."
I told him I wasn't saying the concept wouldn't work, and here was his response:
"That's exactly what you're saying. A gunslinger with early firearms is not a viable choice. What happens when I hit level 6? I get the choice of STILL being stuck with one attack per turn, or I double my chances of having my weapon explode. And if I'm low on HP, hey, it might just KILL MY CHARACTER. And I'm forced to use one-handed firearms only, or I'm still firing every other turn. But hey, at least it would be a standard action instead of full round, that way I can flee like a little b$%!@ when the demons come to kill me."
Here's his personal opinions:
"I get that, but if I'd end up being stuck with such abysmal weapons I don't think I'm going to use firearms. The last thing you need at first level is a weapon that will destroy itself and possibly kill you in the process. If a game is starting at level 1, using early firearms is easily a death sentence. And it's only viable if you play a human, without rapid reload you can only attack every other round. No one wants to play a pathetically weak ranged attacker for several levels. Without advanced firearms, gunslinger is a suicide class."
An early firearm has a very small chance of exploding (odds of a non-fire-lance firearm exploding after the first two shots is 3% maximum, more likely 1.25%, fire lance is admittedly 36% (20% chance on the first shot, 16% chance on the second) but I doubt he's going for fire lance, and while the odds increase as number of shots taken increases, it's also likely that one can get a period of time wherein one can use one's gunsmith kit to fix the gun). without fixing the firearm in between. And while the Mysterious Stranger doesn't get it, most of the other archetypes (as well as the base Gunslinger class) get the Quick Clear deed, allowing the player to clear a firearm's "broken from misfire" condition with a standard action (or a move action with the expenditure of 1 grit point). Additionally, the Amateur Gunslinger feat would allow one to get access to the Quick Clear deed and at least some Grit. I'd hardly consider gunslinger a suicide class... especially since I, at least, can think of several responses to his points. Mostly relying on math.
It sounds like he isn't going to be happy unless you change the state of the world to accommodate his concept.
And really, as long as he has quick clear, he's making a mountain out of a molehill. Alchemical cartridges are fine for getting off a shot every round. Sure, he'll have to clear a jam once in a while, but that's a fair trade off for using a weapon that hits touch.
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I agree with Poldaran, it sounds like he wants it his way or not at all and is going to continue to be unhappy.
And the dying argument? Character death happens, deal with it. Your weapon exploding is the risk you take for using a weapon that gets to do touch attacks for every attack and a times 4 critical multiplier, provided within first range increment, but still. Early firearms are still good, and if he's complain about reload times rapid reload plus alchemical cartridges fixes that. And if he complains about it blowing up remind him that the reliable weapon property exists.
I know this seems harsh, but sometimes you need tough love with players that continue to do to the 'I want it my way,' dance.
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He claims that alchemical cartridges work, but that it fundamentally cripples his concept, as where others get to spend money on things they want, he has to spend all his money on alchemical cartridges just to keep up.
To quote him:
There's a difference between spending a little extra money for an advantage (a vastly superior ranged weapon) and [i]spending twelve times as much per shot[i] just to avoid being useless.
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I will show these things to him. I really do think he's overreacting about this.
Not to mention with Legendary Item, he can effectively remove the problem of the gun exploding. Gun can't really explode when it's an artifact, now can it?
Part of this is the problem that he wants to START around level 6 rather than at level 1, because he doesn't like to waste time as a noob so to speak.
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I agree. But he doesn't. He wants the character to be able to do stuff like this right at the start.
To put it at its simplest, he wants to be Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider, a character who you can already tell is cool from the very first shot you see him in. He doesn't want a character to start out as "not cool." He wants to start out as someone whose fighting prowess impresses the NPCs, and in his mind Level 1 characters are nobodies. They don't stand out, and they don't impress people with how badass they are, taking on a whole group of armed thugs single-handedly.
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Okay, I've offered. I'll see if he responds
And as for reliable weapons and stuff, he said "a solution that presents itself several levels down the road is not a solution. My character could die in the very first fight of the game with a little bad luck. Yeah, level 1 is lethal anyway, but a misfiring gun does not require the enemy to hit you, and it's not like I could make a save or have good AC to protect me. It's vastly more dangerous."
Okay, I've offered. I'll see if he responds
And as for reliable weapons and stuff, he said "a solution that presents itself several levels down the road is not a solution. My character could die in the very first fight of the game with a little bad luck. Yeah, level 1 is lethal anyway, but a misfiring gun does not require the enemy to hit you, and it's not like I could make a save or have good AC to protect me. It's vastly more dangerous."
He can take an action without spending grit to fix the broken gun. The gun doesn't have to explode. There's literally no danger of the gun blowing up on him, just that he might have to lose a round to fix it.
Edit: I guess maybe there's some danger with Mysterious Stranger. But that's a good time to switch to a backup weapon until you can properly fix your gun.
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Like I said, I think he wouldn't want to take the time to fix it because if he's not constantly firing, he's being useless.
I've compromised by saying I'm willing to let him have a +1 gun at the beginning (family heirloom) that he can use Legendary Item on right from the get-go to minimize his problems, and he's said he'll think about it.
Like I said, I think he wouldn't want to take the time to fix it because if he's not constantly firing, he's being useless.
I don't think I like your player. :P
Honestly? Tell him to suck it up. Early firearms are really a balancing factor. You really dont want advanced firearms in your game it will just make it no fun for everyone else.
A while ago i did an ap where everyone started an ap at lvl 3 and lvl 1 gear. We just recieved no xp. But balancing the game for this is probably 3xtra work.
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Like I said, I think he wouldn't want to take the time to fix it because if he's not constantly firing, he's being useless.
I've compromised by saying I'm willing to let him have a +1 gun at the beginning (family heirloom) that he can use Legendary Item on right from the get-go to minimize his problems, and he's said he'll think about it.
From the sound of it your player is a spot lighter. He must have all the attention on him and how awesome he is. Don't give into him getting the +1 weapon. How is that fair to the other players? That just shows him if he complains enough he gets what he wants. It's only going to encourage him. Stick to your guns, ha ha pun, and tell him no. It's your game not his. If he doesn't like the rules find another one.
You could remind him that compared to 99% of the population of the planet, he is hyper-competent and can kick just about anybody's ass, because he has levels in a PC class.
You could go ahead and start the game at a higher level. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this; I usually start games at at least 3rd level because starting characters are way too fragile for my tastes.
You could play on a not-Golarion gameworld. Or since this is YOUR Golarian, you could give it advanced firearms if you want to. Canon is a crutch; do what you want, it's your world now.
Or, you could just say deal with it.
Or, you could find a compromise, start at say half the level he wants to, and timeskip to having Advanced Firearms while still playing in Golarian; figure someone cast Commune or something and asked 'how do we make guns better?'. Or remind him that there are ways to reduce the misfire and speed up the reloading of his Early Firearms.
You should try to reach a compromise if you can. If neither of you are willing to budge on it, well, so roll the dice, he's out.
Okay, I've offered. I'll see if he responds
And as for reliable weapons and stuff, he said "a solution that presents itself several levels down the road is not a solution. My character could die in the very first fight of the game with a little bad luck. Yeah, level 1 is lethal anyway, but a misfiring gun does not require the enemy to hit you, and it's not like I could make a save or have good AC to protect me. It's vastly more dangerous."
Pathfinder is lethal at all levels...
I had a level 13 rogue at full health, checked a door for traps, listened for anyone on the other side... Opened it up, and got power attacked to death in one surprise round.
I had an invisible 9th level sorcerer who made a TERRIBLE stealth check trying to sneak past some giants... One spent his round to find him... the others pounded him to jelly. Again, one round.
HP vs Damage scales to the point where the whole game is deadly all the time.
I can understand having a 'cool concept' that level one just doesn't fit... but as long as the enemies he's fighting are the goblin style, level appropriate' villains.. it shouldn't be any more deadly then 6th level would be.
Characters can die at any level. If he wants to be that hero in the movie that can't die then take his character sheet away from him and declare it an NPC and say NOW your character will never die.
Okay, now he's come up with the following crazy proposal:
He won't start with an advanced firearm like he wants. But over the course of the campaign he'll attempt to invent them.
I...don't know how to respond to that.
I'd say let him, with the caveat that he won't be getting it before level 15 or so. If he's fine with that, then that ought to put this behind you.
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Your player is a drama queen and frankly, I'd have kicked him out of any game I've ever run just for his attitude.
Start as a mysterious stranger gunslinger. Roleplay him as a paladin - just because the class field on his sheet doesn't say PAL 1 doesn't mean he can't act like one and call himself one. Take rapid reload and quit freaking crying about it - you're going to take that feat anyway to make reloading alchemical rounds a free action before you get your first iterative attack. Check out that awesome CHA to damage deed you get: congrats, you got gun training at first freaking level. Gun jams? Wipe the pitiful tears from your face and spend a round to clear it - or draw your sword and get to fighting because you're a full BAB D10 HD class and you're gonna be just fine in melee at 1st level.
Here's your lvl 1 20pt buy stats: str 12 dex 16 con 12 int 10 wis 8 cha 18. Get Intimidate with a trait; enjoy +9 to intimidate fools at 1st level. You're not playing The Man With No Name if you can't walk into a saloon, squint, chew your cigarro, and make evildoers pee their pants.
Then start taking levels in paladin and BASK in the glow of only needing charisma with a side of dex. Learn to love stacking your focused aim deed (powered by charisma) bonus damage with the smite evil bonus damage, against touch AC, bypassing DR! Holy crap! Bad guys are going to die like dogs. You're going to make your GM cry bitter tears of rage as you murk their BBEG in the first round of combat. Other players are going to quietly retire their characters and reroll bards because you have the combat handled all by yourself.
The build starts off good from level one, becomes great at level two, and gets game-breakingly sick by mid levels.
If this joker is seriously looking at this build and crying, may I suggest that he go fire up Skyrim, turn on god mode, and run around with infinite dragon shouts in a world where every NPC assures him that he's the special snowflake chosen one.
I'm legitimately upset right now.
So he feels he deserves great power and ability with guns? I bet Cixyron would be more than happy to work out a deal with him. :]
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It's less that and more that he feels the only way the class is safe to use is with a revolver.
To be clear, I've proposed the exact same build you describe, Red Ramage, to him, and he stated that the problem was that early firearms are far too slow with the necessary reloading and that he has to "waste" a round to clean it if he doesn't want the gun blowing up in his face, which could kill him if his health is already low, and that using alchemical cartidges only means he's spending money that could be spent on minor advantages like other magic items on ammunition just not to suck.
I like the idea. Hell, I'd like to play it myself and would be fine with early firearms. But he seems to feel that it's just too risky and that he wouldn't survive to the point where resurrection spells become viable.
And the grim fact that this will be Wrath of the Righteous, where mythic tiers will allow him to pretty much mow down anything he wants ANYWAY!
I'm willing to accomodate him, but for some reason the fact that he couldn't start with a revolver just set him off. I don't know if it's because the flavor changes them (early firearms are less "cowboy" and more "colonial"), or because he's ignorant of what's been described, or what.
It's less that and more that he feels the only way the class is safe to use is with a revolver.
Just trying to give an in-character choice.
He does underatand the the gun won't explode until the SECOND time you misfire it though, right?
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Oh, I know you were, but I doubt he'd entertain the idea of bargaining with a daemon. Paladin and all.
I don't know if he knows that or not.
I'm starting to think that the Gunslinger's a sort of "high risk/high reward" class that requires a little patience but can be devastating. Part of his problem seems to be that he just doesn't want to wait while reloading. Maybe he thinks that any round he spends reloading is a round demons can whale on him with impunity, leading to him being at higher risk of dying, especially if this happens and then the gun misfires when he's already low.
Though I think that problem can be mitigated simply by...you know, HAVING A PARTY WITH YOU. It's not like I'm running this as a solo game!
Running WotR as a solo game... that would be... yikes. I'm not sure I'd like to be the soloer. Not unless I was allowed multiple characters (like, minimum 3).
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It's less that and more that he feels the only way the class is safe to use is with a revolver.
To be clear, I've proposed the exact same build you describe, Red Ramage, to him, and he stated that the problem was that early firearms are far too slow with the necessary reloading and that he has to "waste" a round to clean it if he doesn't want the gun blowing up in his face, which could kill him if his health is already low, and that using alchemical cartidges only means he's spending money that could be spent on minor advantages like other magic items on ammunition just not to suck.
I like the idea. Hell, I'd like to play it myself and would be fine with early firearms. But he seems to feel that it's just too risky and that he wouldn't survive to the point where resurrection spells become viable.
And the grim fact that this will be Wrath of the Righteous, where mythic tiers will allow him to pretty much mow down anything he wants ANYWAY!
I'm willing to accomodate him, but for some reason the fact that he couldn't start with a revolver just set him off. I don't know if it's because the flavor changes them (early firearms are less "cowboy" and more "colonial"), or because he's ignorant of what's been described, or what.
With the rapid reload feat (which literally every single gun-using character ever will take), he can load and shoot his gun every round with black powder rounds all the way to 6th level, when he gets his first iterative attack. When he gets a pepperbox he can load it with black powder and do combat reloads with alchemical cartridges to save money.
Regarding money: Fighters have to spend money to keep their armor and golf bag of weapons up to snuff. Wizards have to spend money on scrolls and wands. Gunslingers have to spend money on ammo. It's just the price you have to pay for being literally the best ranged dps in the game. He should realize that a fighter needs a cold iron weapon, a silver weapon, a bludgeoning weapon, an slashing weapon, a piercing weapon, a reach weapon, a light weapon, a ranged weapon all in reasonable levels of enchantment. Gun-cowboy-paladin doesn't give a crap about all that because he's going to smite through every kind of DR out there on anything that matters. Wealth by level isn't going to hold him back.
do realize that reloading a revolver is merely a move action, and it targets touch AC out to five range increments instead of one. It's a vastly more powerful class of weapon that will literally marginalize all the other players at the table. I would never in a million years let a player have a revolver in a non-firearm centric game any more than I'd grant a player a free druid animal companion.
Gunslingers are already borderline overpowered. Spending money on ammo and the risk of gunsplosions if he's dumb enough to keep firing a jammed gun are minor impediments to him being literally the best physical damage class in the game, not things that are going to "make him suck". Do point out that the touch AC of the baddest demon out there, the Balor, is sixteen points lower than its normal AC. Firearms are stupid good. If he wants a six-shooter, give him the opportunity to acquire a pepperbox around the time he has 4,000 gp to spend. He can enchant it to be Reliable if he's afraid of explosions.
You want to start at level one with an advanced firearm revolver? Fine. The fighter gets a vorpal sword and the druid gets two animal companions and the wizard can cast two spells per round. And as long as I'm dreaming, I want a pony.
I would seriously remove this player from my table.
About advanced firearms and gunslingers in general: i would say to him to either suck it up or think of another character that can be done with the existing rules.
He either doesn't understand how gunslingers work or he just want to be extra uber powerful or he is overreacting.
For example a musket master at 3rd level, using alchemical cartiges, can fire multiple attacks with a musket every round because he can reload it as a free action, sure he pays 6gp per shot but at 3rd level+ 6gp per shot is really pocket money.
About not starting at 1st level, that i can understand (maybe 3rd or even 5th). In some games it can be good to start at level 1 and be a good addition to the story, in other games not so much. For example of the APs that i have played and run:
1)Kingmaker, starting at 1st level didn't add anything for me
2)Jade regent, the same as Kingmaker
3)Rise of the Runelords, here starting at 1st level really brings something to the story
4)Shattered Star, it depends on how you view and play the adventure but i think that it adds to the story that you start at 1st level.
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If he doesn't want to start at first level, just start the game without him.
Okay, now he's come up with the following crazy proposal:
He won't start with an advanced firearm like he wants. But over the course of the campaign he'll attempt to invent them.
I...don't know how to respond to that.
I actually LIKE this idea and was going to suggest it earlier.
Crafters can make some WILD and CRAZY things... WHy NOT let him have a shot at it...
I've seen a LOT of shows where the heroes gun is SOOOOOOO much cooler then all the 'other guns' in the world...
It'll make it unique and actually a bit more vulnerable if he is the only one can ever fix it or make the ammo for it.
Really, unless the weapon is unholy unbalancing and will send the game into a flaming spiral... I don't see an issue with a single character working on a prototype for a 'better' version of an existing weapon.
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Okay, now he's come up with the following crazy proposal:
He won't start with an advanced firearm like he wants. But over the course of the campaign he'll attempt to invent them.
I...don't know how to respond to that.
I actually LIKE this idea and was going to suggest it earlier.
Crafters can make some WILD and CRAZY things... WHy NOT let him have a shot at it...
I've seen a LOT of shows where the heroes gun is SOOOOOOO much cooler then all the 'other guns' in the world...
It'll make it unique and actually a bit more vulnerable if he is the only one can ever fix it or make the ammo for it.
Really, unless the weapon is unholy unbalancing and will send the game into a flaming spiral... I don't see an issue with a single character working on a prototype for a 'better' version of an existing weapon.
Ooops, looks like the player found the thread.
If your talking about me, no.... I'm not the player.
and it's the second or third time I'd responded in this thread ;)
I just don't believe the fallacy that just because a PC has access to an item, it throws the whole balance of the game out of whack.
If the argument is 'I don't like Advanced firearms, because of mechanics/flavor/etc.... then ban them. But the OP/DM claimed it was because 'Golarion' as a setting isn't there yet....
well... everything was invented by SOMEONE....Most of the weapons/armor in this book are improvements of earlier things and would have NEVER existed at the time period. Sooo crafting and inventing actually seems like a decent compromise
I only read the first few posts, but I would seriously suggest sending him to www.d20pfsrd.com and sorting the monsters by level. Have him check out the difference between AC and Touch AC. I think it was 5 lower at CR 5 and gets better as the level goes up
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Well, we compromised a bit. I'm running Rise of the Runelords instead now, and he decided to play a viking town guard who lost his family to a giant attack. That was totally fine. The Lands of the Linnorm Kings are close enough to Varisia that that's not a problem. The problem arose when I started talking about the new feats in Faiths and Philosophies. Now he wants to play his viking as a Rahadoumi atheist. When I tried to explain why I didn't think such a character would work, he said he liked the defiance of the Atheist feats, and figured they'd be of use when we encountered cleric enemies. After that, and when I said I didn't want the campaign derailed by such a character proselytizing due to the high concentration of believers in Golarion, he had this to say:
WELL F+&$ I GUESS I HAVE TO RIGIDLY FOLLOW EVERY DAMN THING THE BOOK SAYS BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUN ALLOWED.