A weapon that crits on a 8-20 with a feat or keen? Yes I would say that's fairly overpowered, especially because of crit feats that don't care at all how much damage the weapon does or what the crit modifier is.
Tell your player that's exactly how it's supposed to work, and if the enemy's AC is worth anything, the proportion of actual hits that are critical threats will be higher than 30%. Or else believe that it is pure coincidence that of the hundreds of weapons officially published, none grant a 15-20 crit range, or that no Feat exists to double Crit range that stacks with other Crit doubling effects.
The very idea of a crit-based character should let your player know that he won't be shining every moment. You don't run full crit to be super effective all the time, you run full crit when you want to really shine during that quarter of play when it works.
EDIT: And to actually answer your question, I would not allow it in my games.
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Your player has tread well past the line where complaining is appropriate.
A 30% per swing is going to happen with more then enough frequency for a full BAB class.
Perhaps they shouldn't focus on being a one trick pony might be a good response.
Also I'm with Vendis in that item is not something I would allow in my games either.
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Would this be unbalanced specifically for a cleric/fighter.
Holy crap, yes, unquestionably so. There is a very solid reason why 18-20 is the widest threat range in the game.
is complaining that even with a keen weapon he has less than a 30% chance to activate his feats
with one attack. last i checked, fighters aren't limited to one attack per day.
with 7 attacks, that is (2/3)^7 chance to not activate this ability = 128/2057 = 5.85% or nearly 95% chance you WILL activate it.(wait, i used 1/3 vs 2/3 rather than 30% vs. 70%, so it's even better chances than that)
since these abilities tend to have an effect even when the target passes the save (and if they are critted multiple times, they will need to make a save multiple times) that seems more than reasonable. never mind that you are also just doing normal damage and crit damage along with this.
last i checked, competent people designed the game and were aware of actual crit ranges when they wrote all the crit feats.
it's ok. you just have a munchkin player. pat them on the head, tell them 'no', and move on.
The weapon is nutso good.
Once it entered the game no one would ever take anything else. Ever.
i would add the following Caveat to the weapon
if your munchkin player uses this overpowered weapon in your game, then you have the right to force him to allow you and any other PCs to use it in his.
Just say no.
Better you deal with the hurt feelings now than him get it, destroy the place with it blowing through your game like Honey-Boo-Boo on pixie sticks, and then him being ultra unhappy when you wrestle it back off him for the sake of your game and his fellow players.
Just say no.
You could houserule that keen and improved crit stacks. I do.
Instead of introducing new and overpowered weaponry.
Time for the New Magus Weapon of Choice!
also, yes, i concur with the overpowered.
Would it still be overpowered without a crit multiplier?
You could houserule that keen and improved crit stacks. I do.This is far more broken than what I'm suggesting.
It would still be overpowered, because crit feats activate based on critical confirmation, not critical multiplier
And how would that be far more broken? If you rule they stack multiplicative, then they'd stack to give an 8-20 crit range, using a weapon enhancement AND a feat, while your weapon would grant 8-20 range with weapon enhancement OR a feat. If you rule they stack additionally, then the crit range would be 12-20, using a feat and enhancement.
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if this was release for pathfinder it would be overpowered. At your table, you can judge how it affects you players and their PCs.
there are other ways to crit more.
give him haste boots or a speed weapon
make a fighter only feat that makes critical threats apply crit feats with out needing to confirm.
make a weapon enhancement that applies one specific critical feat on hit or critical threat, or when flanking.
make an archetype that modifies weapon training to modify crit range instead of to hit/ damage
give his allies the butterfly sting feat.
Would it still be overpowered without a crit multiplier?
You could houserule that keen and improved crit stacks. I do.This is far more broken than what I'm suggesting.
No it isn't, just to repeat the above(EDIT: two above) post:
I'm suggesting a feat AND an enhancement(at least 2315 gp) gives you 12-20 threat range.You're suggesting a feat+30 gp OR 2330 gp for 8-20 threat range.
Letting them stack is balanced(IMO), and necesary if you want variation from wielding a greatsword for DPR.
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15-20 natural crit range OP? Nah, It just means the Magus will be dealing 30d6 damage at level 15 every time he hits, the Fighter will have the x1.5 factored into his damage, the Barbarian will have 1.5 his Str damage on every hit while raging, the rogue, well he won't really benefit,(If you haven't gathered by now, I'm being Sarcastic as Heck). Now, if the weapon provided, say, a +4 to confirm a crit that stacks with focus, or was a magic weapon worth a whole S#!+ ton of cash, maybe. But 30gp for a weapon that will always crit, no. just no. Maybe you could instead make the weapon let the wielder make use of Perfect Strike as if he was a weapon adept monk of his character level, to allow him to have more of a chance to crit.
In general, if you have to ask,...
And that case definitely applies here, for so many reasons, a few of which have been mentioned above. But I'm not sure this one has been fully mentioned yet...
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Scythe Wielding Barbarian: Waits patiently next to an enemy.
Two-Weapon Fighter: Wields a pair of these new weapon (keen weapons or with the improved critical feat) and takes the butterfly sting feat. Attacks enemy, passes crit along.
Scythe Wielding Barbarian: Gets an X4 crit every single round.
Yeah, if you have to ask...
This weapon would be to strong even if it did 1d2 damage. For some builds even if it would not do any damage at all (butterfly sting). A crit range of 18-20 is bad enough. Any more is too much.
is complaining that even with a keen weapon he has less than a 30% chance to activate his featswith one attack. last i checked, fighters aren't limited to one attack per day.
with 7 attacks, that is (2/3)^7 chance to not activate this ability = 128/2057 = 5.85% or nearly 95% chance you WILL activate it.
(wait, i used 1/3 vs 2/3 rather than 30% vs. 70%, so it's even better chances than that)
since these abilities tend to have an effect even when the target passes the save (and if they are critted multiple times, they will need to make a save multiple times) that seems more than reasonable. never mind that you are also just doing normal damage and crit damage along with this.
last i checked, competent people designed the game and were aware of actual crit ranges when they wrote all the crit feats.
it's ok. you just have a munchkin player. pat them on the head, tell them 'no', and move on.
For more realisitc perspective, they only need one crit to use their crit feats, right? So if you crit 30% of the time, that means you don't do so 70%. Now, with only two good hits (your highest and second highest BAB attacks, since they are the most likely to confirm), the chances that neither of them will crit with the regular methods is 49%. That is over half the time.
If he TWF kukris, the chances he won't get a crit get as low as 24%. Overall, he does not need help. He can do just fine with what is already there.
if you want a massive crit range
the better option would be
not to publish this weapon
but to allow keen and improved critical to stack
which allows more variance in weapon choice
instead of everybody taking this overpowered weapon
and i like 12-20x2 for a feat and a weapon enchantment better than 8-20x2 for the same investment with a weapon restriction
though the big problem with this, is not DPR, but the fact many critical feats produce no-save conditions that completely change the combat game after 9th level
I don't think the crit feats are that strong that they are what will make this weapon good. Except for some of them like Exhausting, they have fort based saves which are on the easier side for anyone in melee.
The real power of this weapon is used with Butterfly's Sting.
A falcata at 12-20x3 would be substantially more unbalanced than the above with IC. A nodachi with the same crit range but better multipliers would be better. Dual wielding rapiers would produce the same result as the above -1 feat for EWP.
Also it would cost a feat +30 GP, +8300 GP for a keen of the above. It would cost 8300 for +1 keen and 1 feat for IC. It's the same effect only my weapon is far worse and if only a x1 crit then your version is exactly twice as good.
You're right about the cost, my mistake. And let me clarify, when I let Impr. Crit. and keen stack I don't multiply the effect, I add(like pretty much everything else in this rules system). So a keen falcata with impr crit would be 15-20/x3. Not 13-20/x3(I'm not sure how you get 12-20).
And we disagree about balance, that's clear, but a mundane item with a higher threat range than a keen "anything else"...
And pointing out that wielding a nodachi(a weapon broadly considered power-creep) is better, doesn't convince me. You're claiming that other overpowered weapons are better to defend your own OP weapon. I just let two similar things stack, based on damage output tables(and 3.0). Granted the tables don't include the falcata and the nodachi.
As a fellow GM let me give you the best advice I can:
If you like it - use it
If not - don't, it's your game and it's about fun.
You asked if the weapon would be overpowered, and I(and apparently others) believe it would be. And I told you what I do in my games.
To me it seems like your player is complaining about not being a god at level 1, and I get that a lot, but that is a big part of the game we love, we advance and improve. A character build shouldn't peak too early.
(this is a lot of text for simply saying "nuh-uh"...)
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Sure. Stunning Crit has a Fort Save. If you pass it, you're still Staggered 1d4 rounds.
Sure. Stunning Crit has a Fort Save. If you pass it, you're still Staggered 1d4 rounds.
staggered is still pretty crippling
unless you are a beast totem barbarian or other character with pounce
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A dual kukri wielding rogue with all the crit feats plus some of the sneak attack rogue tricks can pretty quickly drop every status effect on a single opponent.
The sucky part of the build is how many mid and high level monsters are flat out immune to many conditions.
You don't need a super crit weapon.
Sure. Stunning Crit has a Fort Save. If you pass it, you're still Staggered 1d4 rounds.
You also can't get it until Casters have level 9 spells. There's also Stunning Assault. I'm not too worried about martials having a chance to inflict good status conditions at level 17-20.
Yes I agree that is an overpowered weapon. But you are the DM you could say yes or no.
+16/+11, 1d10+10, crit 19-20, +2d6 if you have good in your alignment, +2d6 if you have evil in your alignment, +1d6 Frost and once a day I could either heal myself 150hp or touch someone and they take 150 damage. Now I was a lvl 7!
that was a case of recieving a powerful magic weapon early. it would have been fine at level 10.
I'll take thirty of them!