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My pet peev about pfs is the fact that neither side can act while flatfooted. You are frozen there and the enemy can bob around you like the flash while you sit there just watching and frozen in time till its your move. They can set themselves up all over the room in flanks for optimized additional hits or damage but in reality in real life no person will just sit there while you travel around the room like the flash and be unable to react. Pfs needs to change that so if you come within striking distance of someone who is flatfooted then they can get that AOO on you which in my opinion would make the game alot more realistic and you wont find players running thru scenarios so fast. You wont find them killing the monsters like they are wet paper dolls in a genzu knife house.What takes away from the game play in the scenarios is how fast you can kill the monsters and something like this makes it too easy to kill them when all you have to do is let them have AOO but right now they dont even get that. In an initiative round you can't do anything till its your turn. So if 100 soldiers beat you to the initiative when they bust your door down to your warehouse they can all pour in an surround you from all sides before you can even say oh damn which in reality it really means 100 people moved like the flash and surrounded you before it's even your ability to move. I've seen so many scenarios get plowed over from the classes doing insane damage that the monsters don't do back but the biggest way monsters die is from this. For example if lets say I had a wizard and busted into a room where the enemy is behind cover but I get +2 init from reactionary trait, +4 improved initi feat, 16 dex gives +3 init, +4 init from compsognathus familiar for total of +13 to init( and there is ways to get even higher).I can step in the room around the cover and cast lightning bolt all up in your face before you even get to react depending on win of init roll.
I'm pretty sure there are feats and traits that allow you to never be flat footed from surprise rounds. I know the Defensive Strategist Trait does exactly that, though I believe its a Religion Trait from Faiths of Purity, I believe linked to Torag.
Also, as someone mentioned, Combat Reflexes does this as well.
My pet peev about pfs is the fact that neither side can act while flatfooted. For example if lets say I had a wizard and busted into a room where the enemy is behind cover but I get +2 init from reactionary trait, +4 improved initi feat, 16 dex gives +3 init, +4 init from compsognathus familiar for total of +13 to init( and there is ways to get even higher).I can step in the room around the cover and cast lightning bolt all up in your face before you even get to react depending on win of init roll.
Ok so the players get a surprise round to do something 1 standard OR 1 Move action. Cant walk in and cast. Could walk in OR Cast.
Round 1 begins (whats to say your Monsters/NPCs can't have initiative feats and traits too?)... Then it evens out the odds a bit. But still flat footed.
Being flat footed just means loose Dex to AC. Try using monsters with low DEX and high Nat AC. and lightning isn't an issue because it's not a touch attack its a save based attack.
Want scenario's to do more damage put traps out. The Wizard that kicks down the door takes a poison needle to the face and gets KO'ed if he fails a save. or a fireball to the feet and takes damage regardless. Fireball can escape detect magic as a trap: Place a bead from necklace of fireball in a tube above the door recessed in the wall door opens the mechanical trap drops the bead down the tube... boom. Not a magical trap. Easier to disable but not detectable with detect magic.
Next option is if they are being silly use their tactics against them introduce an antagonist that watches them learns what they do and both counters it and does something similar to them.
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I think that if I'm in combat against 100 soldiers then losing initiative is the least of my worries.
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This isn't really a rules question...
This isn't really a rules question...
This.
In any case though - if you've caught flat-footed, aren't you meant to be reacting slower than the guy(s) you're in combat with? Or ambushed? Hell, a round, in game, is meant to last something like 6 seconds, isn't it(that may have just been one DM's way of helping me visualise it as opposed to something set down)?
Honestly, trying to react to a situation and get ready to respond, whilst a whole round as normal is a little excessive, on a surprise round, your enemies only get a move or a standard action (as do you), or a charge (or whatever else...). Point being, it's a few seconds long, if you can have someone leap out of nowhere swinging at you and respond in such a manner as to be swinging back offensively, I commend you. But I don't think that a normal human competence. Defending oneself...maybe. But an AOO being denied for flat-footedness seems kind of realistic.
What doesn't seem realistic there is 100 soldiers all pouring in the same door. That umm...that's a rather silly consequence of the game as written.
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I'm pretty sure there are feats and traits that allow you to never be flat footed from surprise rounds. I know the Defensive Strategist Trait does exactly that, though I believe its a Religion Trait from Faiths of Purity, I believe linked to Torag.
Also, as someone mentioned, Combat Reflexes does this as well.
Not to mention, there’s that “Enter” key which helps with those ‘paragraph” things- which mean that “wall of text’ can be “broken”.
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The other thing to keep in mind is that the initiative system wasn't invented just for PFS. It's been with us since 2000 when 3e came out. Certainly there have been a few minor tweaks to it, but it's essentially unchanged.
If the enemy getting surprise on you and able to move around you upsets you, you need to either a) invest in abilities, feats, traits, or other things that increase your perception so you aren't surprised, b) invest in abilities, feats, traits, or other things that increase your initiative so you have a greater chance of going before the enemy, c) invest in abilities, feats, traits, or other things that allow you to keep your DEX modifier in the event that you are surprised or go later in the round, or d) all of the above.
But most of all, the initiative system is definitely not broken. Can it be lopsided at times? Certainly, that is the risk of using chance to determine your outcome, but can be lopsided in your favor, too.
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The other thing to keep in mind is that the initiative system wasn't invented just for PFS. It's been with us since 2000 when 3e came out.
*remembers the Quickness weapon proficiency in 2nd Ed*
And the concept of initiative as used in 3.x was essentially another tweak from AD&D. Back then you could adjust your "initiative" by -2 with Quickness, and you used a d10 for determining "surprise". The +4 you get from Improved Initiative now gives you the same odds of going before your foes.
I only played a little 1st Ed when I was younger so I don't remember how it was handled back then.
I love surprising creatures with my attacks of opportunity because I have Combat Reflexes and a readied longspear. Gets around that whole 'Im flatfooted' issue and if I can manage to trip them, it may also get around that whole 'I'm flat footed and being attacked' issue. :D
- Gauss
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Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. During a normal init round not surprise round where people are ambushing you but instead think of it like two parties walk up on each other and init is rolled. The person gets a move and an action. I understand in a surprise round you get either a move or an action bu this is a normal intit round and since neither side has done anything yet each person is flatfooted till they do so when a person out init you they can move and do an action so it looks like the flash running around the room.
Poundpuppy30, have you ever been in a severe accident? Ever been around any violence? Trust me when I say that 6 seconds of a person standing there dumbfounded is actually a kindness. There are people that cannot get moving after MINUTES of significant events like this.
Of course, those people generally wouldn't survive combat long or they would learn quickly. But, from what I understand, even in the military people do stand around for a few seconds until they get their wits about them.
- Gauss
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I know about combat reflexes but not many monsters have this feat so when parties enter scenarios they easily plow thru the monsters like they are nothing because of the flatfooted example I just gave. So basically there is really no battle since all the pc have to do is basically make high init characters and they can pretty much own most scenarios since percentage wise they will go before the monsters and kill them since most monsters lack combat reflexes and will get torn to shredds before they even get to act in a round.
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As for this not being a rule I'm sorry I guess I should have posted this in the general discussion. I just feel that if the battles are a little more then shredd grinds that the pcs will enjoy it better. I've seen so many scenarios go by where the monsters don't even get to do not one thing and most combat is over in the first round.
Poundpuppy30, I rarely see that situation. Perhaps I play my monsters differently, perhaps the encounter distances are greater. To be honest, its my players who more often than not are getting the shaft that first round.
Try using terrain to slow the PCs down.
Increase the encounter distances.
Use minions to eat up the initial assault.
Have monsters hunt the PCs instead (they can control when and where they fight).
All of these ways can allow your monsters to hit the PCs without getting shredded beforehand.
One note: many monsters have improved initiative. Its actually one of the design elements of Pathfinder creatures I *dont* like. I don't see it as necessary.
Edit: you can also redesign the monsters, give them class levels, etc.
- Gauss
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I was in the military ten years and most of it was with 82nd airborne and was in the gulf war so yes I'm familiar with combat but this type of combat is totally different. You have the enemy always freezing in place even if they are higher level. It's liek watching a movie where the hero moves at lightning speed while the villians are in super slow mode. I know you've seen this many times yourself in the game and found yourself least once saying wow this was a fast combat or least you did before getting use to the fast combats.
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Can't redo the monsters in pfs. You have to run them as they are in the scenario and then you also have to follow their combat, moral or other things written down about them and how they would act in certain situation. I suppose i can add distance to make the fight slow down a little but I've hardly come across monsters with combat init.
PFS is the problem, not Pathfinder as a whole.
As for seeing this many times, I almost never see it in my games or in games with other GMs.
I have seen it in some of the PFS scenarios though but I do not play PFS a lot so I do not have a significant sample size.
Regarding combat etc, my experience is monsters have higher initiatives than many of the PCs and the PCs are making a lot of noise due to armor etc. Thus, the monsters are quite aware of the encounter before it begins. Thus, there should either be a surprise round (the monster is aware, some of the PCs are not) or the monster should get a higher initiative check than many PCs.
PFS may not be using the bestiary creatures with improved initiative, but if you look through the bestiary many of them have improved initiative.
- Gauss
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Poundpuppy-
It's worth remembering that when the players move up on the enemy first, they usually only get a single, standard action attack. The monsters, meanwhile, get to respond with a full attack action. This doesn't come into play much at early levels, but at higher levels it makes the kind of tactics you're talking about risky.
You might want to try a game with a simultaneous initiative system, or maybe something that calls out how long various actions take. Like say, Phoenix Command.
Personally though, I find just setting up encounters properly does a lot to minimize 1-round kills. Rough terrain, long narrow entryways, multi-level zones and the like do a lot to bring costs up from one turn to the proper three turns.
OP: Well, it doesn't really make sense, but that's how D&D has always worked. Technically, everyone is acting in the same six seconds, which means they would all be acting at the same time, and while this would be more realistic, it doesn't real make for smooth game play.
There are plenty of feats that help with that situation. There are also many abilities (class and race; see diviners) that let you act in the surprise round even if you are on the receiving end. I've seen people play with the +13 init builds, on many occasions they just delay. If you put almost everything you have at first level into init, that doesn't leave you much left to increase your versatility and effectiveness. Some of these builds are effective, but almost all the ones I've seen don't give themselves enough relevant abilities to make going first really count.
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This is muy importante, and often ignored. Once iteratives come into play, or an enemy who commonly has multiple attacks...delay or ready becomes a very viable option. Why would I run up to him, take a standard action and then let him take a full round.Poundpuppy-
It's worth remembering that when the players move up on the enemy first, they usually only get a single, standard action attack. The monsters, meanwhile, get to respond with a full attack action. This doesn't come into play much at early levels, but at higher levels it makes the kind of tactics you're talking about risky.
Exactly what happens to our 11th level rogue. Gets into perfect position, delivers a nasty sneak, then the foe turns on him and full attacks him into quivering jelly. True, the monster dies next round, but then we have to scrape all the jelly into a mold, apply a LOT of duct tape, well- ecchh.
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DrDeth, that just amuses me and is why my group has learned early that charging into battle against my critters = dead or dying PCs. My group even has a term for it, they are a second half team. They get slaughtered the first round or two and then they play catch up and somehow manage to survive (I use hero points to help balance things).
- Gauss
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It's especially great when the rogue stealths into amazing tactical position in order to deliver that sneak-- 50 feet away from the nearest party member. Well, say the monsters, I can't quite get to that squishy wizard hiding behind those armored chaps. But as a consolation prize, here's a squishy rogue!
I thinks it's the visualization that's getting to you. I see it like this:
The initiative roll is ooc (the characters don't know that it's happening). Think of it as 6 seconds going by in super slow motion.
Everyone is moving at the same time (no one is frozen) it's just that whoever has the higher initiative roll realizes that "stuff is about to go down!" first and decides to act quicker. While he is realizing this, whoever is second then notices and starts reacting as well, and so on until everyone has their turn.
So if you have a wizard (A), Warrior (B), and bad guy (C) all roll initiative:
the wizard noticed the impending fight and reacted first casting (insta-death spell), the warrior noticed the look in the wizard's eyes and went to swing his sword, and bad guy went to ready his shield. Before warrior and bad guy could actually do anything bad guy was dead, but he would have reacted had he had a turn.
Everyone is moving at the same time (no one is frozen) it's just that whoever has the higher initiative roll realizes that "stuff is about to go down!"
THIS!
It's not frozen, it's just reacting before others. Think of it like a 100meters race. The gun goes off, and some have that slight advantage. This is Pathfinder however, and we need rules :)
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Want scenario's to do more damage put traps out. The Wizard that kicks down the door takes a poison needle to the face and gets KO'ed if he fails a save. or a fireball to the feet and takes damage regardless. Fireball can escape detect magic as a trap: Place a bead from necklace of fireball in a tube above the door recessed in the wall door opens the mechanical trap drops the bead down the tube... boom. Not a magical trap. Easier to disable but not detectable with detect magic.
Way to many errors in this.
1. Yes, magic items detect as magic. Beads from a necklace of fireballs are magic items.
2. Magical and mechanical traps can be found by any class using perception
3. Magical traps are detectable by detect magic; without a perception check.
4. How you describe your traps being set up stopped being relevant after AD&D. A perception check is permitted to locate the trigger for any trap. Mechanical traps can be disabled by anybody with Disable Device.
The only thing a convoluted description of the trap mechanics might suggest is a circumstance bonus to the disable device roll if specific actions are taken.
Way to many errors in this.1. Yes, magic items detect as magic. Beads from a necklace of fireballs are magic items.
No, actually it's not. The trap is mechanical, it's releasing something that is magical. Because the magical item is inside of a foot of stone, it's aura is suppressed. This is a classical type of hidden magical trap. Another example is a door with a mechanical trigger that raises a stone plate 100 feet further down the corridor. When the plate is raised, the continuous lightning bolt spell can now flash down the hallway and hit the person opening the door. The magical item is too far away to be detected with detect magic. This is D&D traps (not even 2nd edition, first edition).
Secondly, check the Aura spell. If you want a magical trap that doesn't glow (and any one who puts magical traps out without aura'ing them is a moron), you need Aura.
2. Magical and mechanical traps can be found by any class using perception
True, but not everyone can disarm magical traps.
3. Magical traps are detectable by detect magic; without a perception check.
Only if the magical portion is within the cone, and not blocked by lead, stone, or aura spells.
4. How you describe your traps being set up stopped being relevant after AD&D. A perception check is permitted to locate the trigger for any trap. Mechanical traps can be disabled by anybody with Disable Device.
Incorrect and wrong. How things are set up are inherently part of reality in the game universe. Your logic would make doors irrelevant, since a perception check can tell what is on the other side of the door, since the door being placed between you and the other room is not relevant. Alternately, it would mean a symbol trap could be set off when you take a perception roll even though it's on the other side of a curtain, because the curtain isn't relevant to finding the trap.
You should check up the round less, count up initiative system that Hackmaster uses. There are no rounds. It looks like it takes a bit of getting used to, but all that people that I've spoken to who use it say they love it and would have a lot of trouble going back to a round based system.
My pet peev about pfs is the fact that neither side can act while flatfooted. You are frozen there and the enemy can bob around you like the flash while you sit there just watching and frozen in time till its your move. They can set themselves up all over the room in flanks for optimized additional hits or damage but in reality in real life no person will just sit there while you travel around the room like the flash and be unable to react. Pfs needs to change that so if you come within striking distance of someone who is flatfooted then they can get that AOO on you which in my opinion would make the game alot more realistic and you wont find players running thru scenarios so fast. You wont find them killing the monsters like they are wet paper dolls in a genzu knife house.What takes away from the game play in the scenarios is how fast you can kill the monsters and something like this makes it too easy to kill them when all you have to do is let them have AOO but right now they dont even get that. In an initiative round you can't do anything till its your turn. So if 100 soldiers beat you to the initiative when they bust your door down to your warehouse they can all pour in an surround you from all sides before you can even say oh damn which in reality it really means 100 people moved like the flash and surrounded you before it's even your ability to move. I've seen so many scenarios get plowed over from the classes doing insane damage that the monsters don't do back but the biggest way monsters die is from this. For example if lets say I had a wizard and busted into a room where the enemy is behind cover but I get +2 init from reactionary trait, +4 improved initi feat, 16 dex gives +3 init, +4 init from compsognathus familiar for total of +13 to init( and there is ways to get even higher).I can step in the room around the cover and cast lightning bolt all up in your face before you even get to react depending on win of init roll.
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Yes. They are magic items. Magic items detect as magical. That was the extent of my statement.
Secondly, check the Aura spell. If you want a magical trap that doesn't glow (and any one who puts magical traps out without aura'ing them is a moron), you need Aura.
Not included in the above scenario. Unless you are playing Schordinger where every statement is immediately countered by an altered set of circumstances.
True, but not everyone can disarm magical traps.
Simple knowledge of the trap's existence is sufficient to bypass most traps.
My fighter carries an 11' pole for a reason.
My wizard memorized the Open/Close cantrip.
Etc.
But the above trap is mechanical. So not an issue.
3. Magical traps are detectable by detect magic; without a perception check.
Only if the magical portion is within the cone, and not blocked by lead, stone, or aura spells.
Then you are dealing with a mechanical trap, which anybody can find and disable.
Incorrect and wrong. How things are set up are inherently part of reality in the game universe. Your logic would make doors irrelevant, since a perception check can tell what is on the other side of the door, since the door being placed between you and the other room is not relevant. Alternately, it would mean a symbol trap could be set off when you take a perception roll even though it's on the other side of a curtain, because the curtain isn't relevant to finding the trap.
All traps—mechanical or magical—have the following elements: CR, type, Perception DC, Disable Device DC, trigger, reset, and effect. Some traps might also include optional elements, such as poison or a bypass. These characteristics are described below.
RAW: player rolls Perception vs DC of the trap. Notices or fails to notice.
Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. The DC of this check depends on the trap itself. Success generally indicates that the creature has detected the mechanism that activates the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears attached to a door handle, and the like. Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed to do.
A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
RAW: player rolls Disable Device vs DC of the trap. Magical traps require the Trapfinding class feature. Magical traps may be countered via Dispel Magic.
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level).
Providing a complicated description of a trap dictate at what point the trap would be triggered and is certainly good for flavor. It can also provide characters an opportunity to come up with creative solutions to bypass the trap or generate a circumstance bonus on the disable device attempt. Creative descriptions have no mechanical impact on locating or disabling a trap once the CR rating and DC values of the trap have been assigned other than those mentioned above.
Making a trap undetectable prior to triggering is DM Fiat and is not supported RAW.
@Arthantos
Your original post indicated, to me at least on reading it, that if there was any magic at any point it was detectable by detect magic on any part of the trap, and that is not correct. You are correct that a mechanical trap that sets off a remote magical trap is a mechanical trap, and can be disabled by anyone with sufficient skill. That I agree with.
The statement that a trap cannot be detectable is GM fiat is not what I was stating.
I stated that detecting traps by using detect magic is a very bad way to detect them, as all traps that have magic should either have something to block detect magic, or they should use the aura spell. I stand by those statements, because anything else is just moronic. Putting in traps that can be detected by a 1st level adept (not Rogue, not Wizard, Not Sorcerer, but ADEPT) defeats the entire purpose of the trap.
A magical trap with aura could be detected by someone who's not a rogue, with a sufficient perception check. However, they would be unable to disarm it.