Running first game: use AoO's or not?


Advice


Hello,

I'm running my first game of Pathfinder Saturday. I've GMd in the past, but it's been many years and this will be the first time I've run a ttrpg using gridded out combat in which position is tracked, etc.

I have only the beginner box right now, but I have printed up the full combat rules and was planning on using those; however I was reading a thread where the overarching opinion was that AoO rules slow down combat and that it flows faster without them. So I'm just looking for opinions from experienced players and GMs on whether I ought to include them in my first game.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

AoO can often be avoided by just 5ft stepping away and casting or through the Acrobatics skill if movement is desired. There are spells out there that prevent these tactics from working, but as long as they aren't being used (and probably won't/shouldn't be), I see no reason why to use them to begin with. You should bring them in eventually if the party/you seem to have a strong grasp on the concept of the game, but the first couple sessions should be fine without them.

Spells like Shocking Grasp which are melee touch attacks will be stronger without AoOs, but I find it unlikely someone will abuse this if they are new to the game.


I'm not sure about slowing down, but it does limit your options a lot and is an obstacle that a lot of new players wont anticipate and find annoying.

If you are playing a melee based character then AoO is something you will spend all of your efforts trying to avoid as you level up! To take it away completely renders half the feats rules useless, but I think beginners would appreciate it and enjoy it more.

For a dedicated player it is part of the challenge of combat, but new players want a taste of war and smashing s**t up!

So I would absolutely take out AoO for noobs.

If it's a game that you expect might last for many levels to come, you can put it back in once they've found their gaming feet. Or not! The rules really are more of a guide to help you have the kind of game you and your players want =)


I wouldn't limit them or remove them. There are some builds that are centered on gaining the combat reflexes feat for example and you unnecessarily gimp your melee in combat when you take away their AoO's.

I also think it actually doesn't slow down combat when you remove them, the time it takes to defeat enemies is the same. Why you ask? Because those hits that would be killing the NPC's/PC's on AoO's are now nonexistent and you are instead trading them for more rounds of combat rather than longer rounds of combat. It will still take the same amount of hits to kill, but you'll see the guys who can hit multiple targets really shine and make your melee players mad.


OP, help us to help you

Are you running the Beginner Box scenario?
Are your players new to Pathfinder and/or tabletop RPGs in general?
Are your players creating Beginner Box characters or ones utilizing all the options from the Core Rulebook, Advanced Players Guide and beyond?
How many players do you have in the group?

Silver Crusade

Are you playing with new players? If so, I'd suggest that you take out AOOs. There's enough for a new player to keep track of already and you can always introduce AOOs later when they're more comfortable with the game.

As a middle ground, you could retain AOOs provoked by "distracting acts" (e.g. spellcasting, retrieving an item, firing a ranged weapon while threatened) but discard AOOs provoked by movement. The first sort are intuitive enough (you can't defend yourself while you're doing those sorts of things) and can give them a taste of what an AOO is for later when you transition to the full rules. And in my experience it's all the movement rules about AOOs that are the real drag for new players (moving to flank, 5' step, withdraw). They've got enough to learn already, let them focus on that. You can ramp up to full complexity over time.


I can't imagine the game without AoO. The most important thing to remember is that for movement you only provoke when leaving a threatened square, not when entering. Combined with a 5ft step, you don't provoke. But AoO can be very important to certain characters and builds, removing them could be problematic. It would decimate the purpose of most of the Greater Combat Maneuver (like Greater Trip) feats, it would limit the usefulness of several of the Combat Style feats (Crane Riposte, Panther Style, Snake Fang) other feats like Broken Wing Gambit, and class abilities like the Barbarian's Come and Get Me. Attacks of Opportunity are an intimate and important part of the game. It is better to teach them the proper game and let them learn, even if it is slow going at first, rather than introduce the feature later on and find that the game is now drastically different than it was before.


I like the AoO rules, but if I were playing with the Beginner Box rules I wouldn't bother (since there's nothing in the Beginner Box that refers to them, as far as I know).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'd say introduce AoOs after a few combat encounters. Once they figure out standard and move actions, you can then throw in immediate actions and AoOs. When you do introduce them, don't punish them for not knowing it. In fact, teach the players by putting in a scenario where enemies are trying to go through the front lines and they have to use AoOs to protect the back line party members.


There are certain basic things in the game that cease to function if you remove attacks of opportunity. For instance, the fighter protecting the squishy mage standing behind him. Without Attacks of Opportunity, the bad guy can simply saunter past him and stab the wizard. It also drastically weakens the concept of martial characters doing battlefield control which is already difficult, and eliminates the usefulness of alot of feats and other options.

But they are a sort of fiddly part of the rules in terms of what kind of actions provoke them, what can be done with them etc. Which is why alot of people leave them out. Just be sure you understand the consequences of removing them and inform your players ahead of time so they can make informed choices.


Seconding that your players should definitely know they exist, even if you don't use them in this particular game. One of my older gaming friends started on a system other than d20, and the first d20 game in which he played (which was about a year long) ignored AoOs. The GM did it to make it easier for the new group.

The problem is that then when they decided to try the game under another GM, AoOs were a completely new concept to them.

I would probably play a couple of sessions without them, and then perhaps put together a simple skirmish - not an actual game session, but just an artificial combat - and go over the different ways AoOs can occur, then afterward introduce them into the actual game.

Sovereign Court

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For new players with the Beginner Box, I get rid of pretty much every rule that isn't necessary. If a newbie with a level 1 Rogue says he wants to move, pull out his dagger, and throw it at an enemy, he'll have more fun if you just say "sure, roll a d20" than if you sit him down and explain about moving, the rules for pulling out and dropping weapons, how players with BAB of +1 can pull out weapons as part of a move, etc.

On those lines, I would keep the AoOs for spellcasting, but get rid of the ones for moving. Saying "if you try to cast a spell right next to that goblin, he gets to smack you" is pretty intuitive; trying to explain about threatened squares and what types of movement provoke is more complex. New players are going to be learning about move speeds, move actions, how to count squares, etc.; they shouldn't have to worry about enemy positions and threatened squares.

TL,DR: For new players, the rules should give structure without providing limitations or being mentally burdensome. Strip anything you feel appropriate to make it so.


Someone up top asked me to provide more information:

1) Not running the BB scenario. I'll be running Crypt of the Everflame.
2) The players are new to Pathfinder, but all of them have some experience with ttrpg's.
3) They *are* using BB characters.
4) 4 players in the group.

Thanks for all the helpful replies; they've given me a lot to think about. Right now I'm leaning toward using AoO rules, just to keep the combats more interesting. I've played a lot of wargames and have some tactical mini-type experience, so the idea of opportunity attacks and zones of control and stuff don't bother me; I was more concerned about keeping the players engaged.

That was a good point about forming lines and using AoOs to protect weaker backline characters; I hadn't thought of that. I think I had a mental block causing me to only consider AoOs with regard to *monsters* using them, and failed to realize that the PCs will be using them as well.

Thanks again for the help!

EDIT: Reynard, just read your post. Good arguments. Now I'm leaning toward *not* using them! Agghhh, the indecision! :)


The other problem with removing them is that it is a house-rule to do so. If you have players that want to take advantage of using them (through builds as I said before) or want to play RAW, then you are limiting them and their character concepts.

As a GM I err on the side of players so that they are having fun and if I take away the RAW for something that is so ingrained into them such as AOO, then I feel it would be cheating the players.

I understand that you have new players and that you want to speed up combat and whatnot, but there are other ways to do so.

You can have someone else keep track of the initiatives letting the others know who is up and who is on deck so that they are thinking ahead of time what they want to do. You can use weaker versions of monsters that most people call "mooks" or "minions" who have 1 hit point and do static damage so all the PC's have to do is hit them once and you can use a small hourglass or timer for 30-45 seconds per turn or the PC is placed in delay.

As you are just starting out though, combat should be going pretty quickly as it is. It's when players and monsters have MORE things to do at the higher levels, more hit points, and more healing that things start to bog down. You can use a few of my suggestions to keep it more reasonable without removing PC options.


You could try introducing them gradually, just using a couple of cases at first.

1) when you move through a square next to someone, you provoke one AoO
2) if you cast a spell or use a ranged attack next to someone, you provoke an AoO (and that they can lose the spell if they're hit)
3) everybody gets one AoO per round, whether they hit or miss.

And just leave out everything else at first. No reach, no feats, no other situations. Make it clear that there are more circumstances that you will introduce later, but that these are the basic ones they have to worry about. Remind them that getting swung at doesn't guarantee they'll be hit, that getting hit once isn't the end of the world and that sometimes it's worth it.

Make it clear that they get to use these too, and give them a chance to do so (and point out to them when they can).

The first additional step should be explaining to the Rogue (or Monk, or maybe Ranger?) that they can use acrobatics to avoid AoO when moving. If someone seems to like using AoO, show them some feats they can use to take advantage of them.

The next step, particularly if they get frustrated with AoO, should be to explain the five foot step, but I wouldn't start with it.

After that use your best judgement to introduce what seems to come up the most often, and give them plenty of advance notice, maybe even give them a pass the first time they forget.

To the people suggesting that whole builds are built around AoO: these are nubes, remember. There are plenty of other builds for them to try out first that don't involve the more complicated rules.


The AOO rules are a very imporant limitation on range weapon users and spell casters and movement, and a key element in the overal tactical scheme of the game. they are also very simple to implement and honestly are not a very complext part of the game.

Shadow Lodge

existence123 wrote:
I'm just looking for opinions from experienced players and GMs on whether I ought to include them in my first game.

Two very basic things that every player needs to know about d20 melee combat are:

1. avoiding/getting AoOs
2. memorizing the "Withdraw" action (i.e, see Rule 1)

Learn it early, and it becomes rote memory very quickly.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
existence123 wrote:
I'm just looking for opinions from experienced players and GMs on whether I ought to include them in my first game.

Two very basic things that every player needs to know about d20 melee combat are:

1. avoiding/getting AoOs
2. memorizing the "Withdraw" action (i.e, see Rule 1)

Learn it early, and it becomes rote memory very quickly.

Those were rules 2 and 3.

1. Don't play a rogue.

Silver Crusade

AoOs are part of the rules and should not be omitted. They do not slow combat down, but players not knowing the rules for them does. This means if you do not intend to use them and a player does research and find out about them and tries to use them it will bog things down because it will prompt a discussion that will eat time.

If you use them from the outset it’s best for all involved. The players will figure them out in the first few games and it will be a nonissue.

If you want to keep combat running have the to-hit and damage dice rolled at one time, encourage everyone to know what they are going to do when their turn comes up, keep off topic conversation to a minimum and discourage devices that distract from the game at the table.

Shadow Lodge

I Hate Nickelback wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
existence123 wrote:
I'm just looking for opinions from experienced players and GMs on whether I ought to include them in my first game.

Two very basic things that every player needs to know about d20 melee combat are:

1. avoiding/getting AoOs
2. memorizing the "Withdraw" action (i.e, see Rule 1)

Learn it early, and it becomes rote memory very quickly.

Those were rules 2 and 3.

1. Don't play a rogue.

Nonsense.


Played my first session last night. Used Op Attacks, and everything was fine. Guess my worry was much ado about nothing. Thanks for all the help.


Just as well. For better or worse, AoOs are kinda baked into the rules and lots of character types, feats, maneuvers, etc. rely on them.

So even though they're a huge PITA overcomplication, there's no easy and fair way to leave them out.

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