We seem to have trouble keeping a 4th player in our group, and the DM doesn't like to run a DMPC, although he has had me run a 4th character that is a pure fighter and I don't want to this time.
I have read the Players Guide, but I am looking for suggestions on how to "build" a three person party since I will be playing in it when we start in perhaps six months.
I was thinking perhaps:
Urban Ranger with Dangerously Curious trait. That gives him UMD, trap finding, Disable Device and if built right some stealth. A Winter Witch, and a Crusader Cleric.
How would this work?
Oh, and it is a 20 point build (no 7 ability score, and only 1 score under 10), max hp, max gold, generally we stick to Core and maybe APG.
-- david
How have you cone up with the 3 possible characters?
And why? A winter witch will need a very good story to fit into this game. It starts a long way fron their homeland.
I'm not sure what I can advise without very minor spoilers.
I can say Urban ranger really does not fit as a concept in this game.
Isn't your gm going to adjust for 3 PCs.
Are you asking how to build a 3 person party with the right mix of skills? Because that cannot be made reign of winter specific without minor hints/spoilers towards the story.
Okay. If I were to make a suggestion, the one class that will be extremely useful for this campaign is a Cleric that keeps the Channel Energy ability. To compensate for the lack of a fourth player, I'd also suggest going for a couple Feats that benefit Summoning - there's one that turns Summoning spells into a one-action spell, and others that beef up the power of the summoned critters.
Also, be sure to get Selective Channel fairly quickly so you can use Channel Energy to heal your group but not the enemy. A decent Charisma score and a good Wisdom score in this case is quite handy (I'd start with a Wisdom of 16 or 17 before racial modification, and a Charisma of 14 or 15).
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I think he's asking for a party that fits thematically into Reign of Winter, can cover all the traditional roles a four-person party is "supposed" to cover, and that can survive while doing both those things assuming that the AP is not adjusted for a three-person group.
Witchcraft, femininity, the cycle of life, death, and rebirth, and the alien and strange are major motifs that crop up in the AP. Almost all the pure caster types except Sorcerer can fit these themes, but Cleric, Druid, and Witch are particularly suited. Wizard, Inquisitor, and Bard are good fits, as the various Knowledge skills get plenty of play in the AP. For what it's worth, Paizo selected Feiya (CG Human Witch), Imrijka (NG Half-Orc Inquisitor), Valeros (NG Human Fighter), and Lini (N Gnome Druid) as an appropriately thematic party. Note that all the classes but Fighter are the ones I mentioned, and Fighter is meant to be thematically generic - excuse me, I mean "mutable". I would also suggest tilting the gender balance towards the feminine, with either two or three of the party members being women. Paizo continues to agree with me, casting three female iconics and one male to make up their party.
If you're dead set on including a Ranger to handle most of the skills, including trapfinding, may I suggest the Trapper archetype? You lose out on spells, and the ranger traps aren't very good, but it does get trapfinding as a class ability and Disable Device as a class skill. It also fits better thematically with your starting location than an Urban Ranger would. IMO you can't go wrong with Witch and Cleric as classes. They're both powerhouses and should compensate for the lack of a fourth party member easily enough. Druid would compensate for the lack of a fourth party member perfectly, since they bring their fourth party member with them, but I digress. Consider building both the Ranger and the Cleric for melee, because the Witch will need to get fairly close to enemies to use many of her hexes, and will need protection. Conversely, if she does stay back to use her spells, she'll have ranged combat pretty much covered and won't need help.
An aside: there's nothing stopping a southern Witch from taking the winter patron. Taldor is warm, but it isn't tropical. I would caution you, however, against making this person related to the White Witches of Irrisen, because as far as they go, Lanathar's right. She'd be very out of place. The difference between a winter Witch and a White Witch is as follows: a winter Witch is simply a Witch - or a Witch with the Winter Witch archetype - with the winter patron and possibly levels in the Winter Witch prestige class, while a White Witch is a winter Witch of Jadwiga extraction who holds a position in the aristocratic hierarchy of Irrisen. Winter Witch also turns out to be a very defensive-minded archetype in this AP, so if you would prefer a more offensive character you might want to eschew it.
I think he's asking for a party that fits thematically into Reign of Winter, can cover all the traditional roles a four-person party is "supposed" to cover, and that can survive while doing both those things assuming that the AP is not adjusted for a three-person group.
Yea, what Zimmerwald said. The DM is relatively new to DMing, good but new, and he would have a hard time "adjusting" it to three PCs, which is why he usually has me play a 2nd PC tank fighter. I want to concentrate on one character and not have to be concerned about a 2nd one, even though it is not much to do (attack, damage, next bad guy), and none of the other guys want to either.
Winter Witch, because the Players Guide (page 5) suggested it, and I like the thought of fighting cold with cold (so to speak). Crusader Cleric was the healer tank, even though not a full bab class he gets some weapon / armor feats as extras that a normal cleric has to take a regular feat for. Also, probably a Cleric of Iomedae or Torag for the weapon. The Urban Ranger doubles as a damage dealer (probably Treantmonk's Switch Hitter so he could do archery or melee) and picking up some critical Rogue skills (trap finding, disable device). Hmmm. Trapper Ranger gets both also. That could work, and would be just as easy to do, and with UMD (Dangerously Curious) could be a backup wand healer, thanks!
Is a Rogue *really* necessary? Should I not be concerned about the trap finding skill? I know in some campaigns, Kingmaker for example, it was not a big deal to have a Rogue-like character, but in some campaigns, a Rogue-like character was critical.
-- david
ps. Thanks for the help.
pps. Oh, not dead set on Ranger or any of the others, what would you suggest? I was just trying to "cover the bases" so to speak with my original pass.
ppps. Yea, minor spoilers would be ok. Just from some of the blogs, it is easy to pick up some of the information. Same thing from the players guide.
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Winter Witch, because the Players Guide (page 5) suggested it, and I like the thought of fighting cold with cold (so to speak).
Bear in mind that the Winter Witch gets the Cold Flesh ability, which gives cold resistance and eventually immunity. This means that any White Witches you fight will have this ability as well. So "fighting cold with cold" is not as simple as it might appear. It's perfectly viable to play a Winter Witch, but as I said, it's a very defensive-minded archetype.
The Urban Ranger doubles as a damage dealer (probably Treantmonk's Switch Hitter so he could do archery or melee) and picking up some critical Rogue skills (trap finding, disable device). Hmmm. Trapper Ranger gets both also. That could work, and would be just as easy to do, and with UMD (Dangerously Curious) could be a backup wand healer, thanks!
IMO the smaller the party the fewer people should focus on ranged combat. It will be difficult for the Cleric alone to hold the front line against all possible tactics the enemies might try, and I would strongly advise keeping the Ranger up front in most cases. The caveat is that ranged combat will be necessary to deal with flying enemies before you can fly yourself. But I do think ranged combat should very much be considered a backup option rather than something to build heavily towards.
Also consider that both the Cleric and the Witch can heal. Having a party where everyone can heal is far from a bad thing, but it's just something to keep in mind.
Is a Rogue *really* necessary? Should I not be concerned about the trap finding skill? I know in some campaigns, Kingmaker for example, it was not a big deal to have a Rogue-like character, but in some campaigns, a Rogue-like character was critical.
Now you're asking for spoilers. I suppose it's not too much to say that Reign of Winter falls somewhere between Kingmaker and Shattered Star on the trap density scale :P
1)Remember, anyone can find traps, it just takes trapfinding to disarm magical traps.
2)With that kind of point buy it is going to be hard. I'm not going to lie the AP is pretty roughneck.
3)As a DM i was pleasantly surprised at the amount of skills that get used in the adventure, having all the skills covered is indeed a good idea. Really if you want to amuse yourselves throw caution to the wind and make 3 bards :)
4)Being able to move on snow and ice, and see through snow and wind at low levels is a huge advantage in this AP you take a look at a small sampling of them here. Being immune to cold and cold damage and being able to deliver solid physical damage is better in this as three players than, say, being normal versus cold and able to drop strong fire damage.
5)Saves, Saves, Saves. This AP is about the queen of the witches, be ready to make a lot of saves.
6)Urban ranger is going to be rough, because it might be hard to find a community in this AP.
Lastly, If It was I making a 3 man party, I would be sorely tempted by Winter Witch, Arctic Druid, Winter Oracle party. But then again, such a party would be really out of place in line with the story. As a more general party I think yours holds up, Try and get animal domain and ranger pet with Boon Companion feat in as fast as you can to provide some extra bodies.
A high-strength Barbarian with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack could be quite useful. Especially if you go eventually for Superstitious for the bonus to saves. You're going to want someone who just cuts through the opposition as quickly as possible.
I'm running the Reign of Winter camp with two players... I gave them the summoner's Eidolon (without any of the other abilities of the class) to make up for the reduced players. It's worked perfectly. Optionally, if the DM is really worried about it, use the Gestalt rules, the increase in abilities but no increase in actions, works well to balance out out the lack of players.
I could in addition recommend Snowball to that, which then becomes a small fireball hitting touch AC.
Take tattooed sorcerer, get another +1 caster level on evocation.