What happens if a Balor was able to become a LG Paladin and dies? Does it go to hell or does it get to hang out with Iomodae?
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What happens if a Balor was able to become a LG Paladin and dies? Does it go to hell or does it get to hang out with Iomodae?Sorry, rules don't cover the patently absurd, you're on your own.
A shame they do. Champions of Purity has rules for redeeming fiends. Try checking the available material before you dismiss it.
Anyway, an outsider doesn't have a soul per se. Their body is the soul, and they can't be raised, etc. This is because they're the souls of the dead transformed into outsiders through various processes. As I recall, outsiders become part of the ambient background of their plane when they die.
Now, whether they'd go to Hell or Heaven depends entirely on GM fiat, but I'd say that a balor paladin would be rare enough for Iomedae to cherish, so the balor would get to become part of Heaven.
What happens if a Balor was able to become a LG Paladin and dies? Does it go to hell or does it get to hang out with Iomodae?
RAW the Balor, if killed, ceases to exist and can only be brought back with True Ressurection.
After that, for your example, it is all Rule 0. Normally evil outsiders once killed have their 'energies' reabsorbed by the evil plane they orginated in. Since you have a non standard case the non standard answer will need to come from your GM.
As a suggestion, if this Balor actually becomes good enough to become a Paladin, perhaps it would reconstitute as a type of angel on that happening.
I appreciate the replies. It was a concept for an NPC I've been working on and I was curious about this bit.
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Well, in the interest of being as rude as your first post, he didn't ask whether you liked the concept or not.
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I feel like this thread is just like succubus in a grapple except boring and not fun
What happens to a a LG Balor Paladin when it dies? This is what happens:
When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of fire that deals 100 points of damage (half fire, half unholy damage) to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 33 halves). The save DC is Constitution-based.
...sorry, couldn't help it :)
On a side note, I find it amusing that when a Balor Paladin explodes, he still does unholy damage unless you edit his abilities.
I pretty much subscribe to James Jacobs' idea that a "risen" fiend should be rewritten as a unique being. Having said that, though, a Lawful Good demon (beware Detect [Alignment] spells) is essentially a LG creature that "just happens" (aka, the GM came up with a cool story) to have the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes. What happens after it dies is what happens to any other LG Outsider.
Sarenrae actually would likely grab it and make its soul into something if Iomedae didn't. That's pretty powerful redemption.
I pretty much subscribe to James Jacobs' idea that a "risen" fiend should be rewritten as a unique being. Having said that, though, a Lawful Good demon (beware Detect [Alignment] spells) is essentially a LG creature that "just happens" (aka, the GM came up with a cool story) to have the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes. What happens after it dies is what happens to any other LG Outsider.
Makes sense to me.
I have a major problem with the concept, Balors aren't just mildly evil. They are the Evil that Evil cowers from. They are formed from the most evil of evil souls. It would take a storyteller with talent far above the norm to pull that off with verisimilitude.
They're free-willed sapient beings. They can choose their own path, and instincts can be overcome.
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I'd wager whatever part of Heaven such a balor's essense merges with would become quite interesting to say the least. :)
That's if it merges rather than just suffers some form of breakdown and "demotion". Which could get really weird combined with its unusual nature. If it is broken down into component souls, you could very well wind up with differing incarnations of the better angels and worse demons of that balor's nature.
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I kind of get the impression that when Demons angels or whatever have some important life event happen that causes thenm to switch sides they basically stop being whatever they were before.
So a Balor that at some point became lawful good is probably some sort of unique Angel but likely is no longer a balor.
By default, that only happens if it is destroyed on its home plane.
I don't believe that is actually true. If the Balor is a summoned creature, then it is not actually 'there' but is a magic creation of a sorts of the summoning spell. Hence if THAT Balor is killed no it did not die.
If a balor plane shifts or is brought about by a calling type spell or somehow is gated to the Prime and killed there, it is dead and finished just as if you had gone to the abyss and killed it there. It's soul is it's body and it's body is it's soul. Destroy one you destroy both. If the unique creature is actually IN a location then it can be permanently killed.
Hence why powerful good conjurors/'summoners', Paladins, Inquisitors and such CAN intimidate or deal with super powered evils. If they (the evil) recognise the chance they can actually die to this being, the usually realise weakness will not be rewarded with a True Ressurection by the lower planes. Better to make a deal than die eternally.
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There's a lot of softly defined cosmologomogical rules about outsiders and how dying off their home plane is different from etc. etc. etc., many of which have shifted gears between editions and campaign settings.
I don't believe it's universally set in stone what exactly happens and where in the Pathfinderverse. Possibly to allow GMs to run their outsider cosmology under their preferred model.(sometimes varying by outsider type at that)
Take Treerazer for example. His severed conncection to his home plane is pointed out as a critical weakness and his greatest fear, because now dying on the Material Plane will kill him for good rather than allow him to reform in any way on the Abyss. Extrapolating the rukle from his exception, something other than a "final death" typically happens for demons operating under that assumption. And then there are various outsiders who "fight fearlessly knowing that they will simplly reform on their home plane".
Good point, there, Mikaze.
In 1E and 2E, the beings we now call Outsiders couldn't die away from their home plane. As a result of this, the cosmologies of the campaign settings reflected that aspect of their nature. However in 3E they didn't gain that ability as a trait of the Outsider type. To prevent a sudden alteration to the rules of the multiverse, it was reasonable to say that any Outsider with the [Extraplanar] subtype could not experience true death (since they lose that subtype on their home plane, that's where they can be actually killed), but I don't think it was written down anywhere.
While I could be wrong, I think that Golarion has been written under the assumption that (in general) Extraplanar Outsider True Death happens. I think there might even be a post in Ask James Jacobs that flat-out says they die if they're killed, no matter where they are.
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I have a major problem with the concept, Balors aren't just mildly evil. They are the Evil that Evil cowers from. They are formed from the most evil of evil souls. It would take a storyteller with talent far above the norm to pull that off with verisimilitude.They're free-willed sapient beings. They can choose their own path, and instincts can be overcome.
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that outsiders with an alignment subtype do not have free-will. Or at least not the same kind that mortals have. They are physical embodiments of an ideal and straying away from those ideals is against their nature.
I'd say it depends on how death works for Outsiders in the campaign setting you play in.
As others have pointed out, it's not that complicated. If this Balor was approved by the forces of Good, he'd probably go to Heaven when he dies.
Salazzar Slaan, have you ever heard of an Empyreal Lord named Ragathiel? You know, a Devil who turned Good, to the point of becoming a Lawful Good demigod?
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that outsiders with an alignment subtype do not have free-will. Or at least not the same kind that mortals have. They are physical embodiments of an ideal and straying away from those ideals is against their nature.
This was also my impression. Demons are physical expressions of the plane from which they come. They don't decide to be evil. They are evil.
DM fiat, of course, can change anything.
Look at the erinyes. They're noted to be fallen angels yet I see no angel that matches their abilities. I agree with JJ they become something different entirely.
Demons value Strength, Power, etc. Very rarely, there will be a demon that feels that certain things just aren't worth it; what pleasure in strength and power is there when you use it against weaklings? Every demon knows that mortals are weaklings, and LG types the weakest of all, always prattling on about "salvation" and "purity" and such nonsense. The forces of Evil and Chaos are strong and powerful and worth fighting against. But what's even harder is fighting against Evil and Chaos while at the same time protecting the weak mortals. That's a demonly demon's challenge; protecting the weak meat-bags while fighting the strongest beings there are to fight. In fact, fight by the meatbag rules of "honor" and "grace". When you kill an enemy, that's it, they can't challenge you anymore. Let the enemy live, and you always know there's someone strong out there you can butt horns with some other day. These are demons that fight for the LG cause because fighting against LG is boring and they'd be fighting against CE anyway because that's fun and fighting for LG just adds that much more challenge and fun. And, if anyone ever accuses him of being "good" and "having rules"...
"Good beings don't need rules, they're good beings. Today is not the day to find out why I have so very many."
I dont agree as a general statement, but I think a demon that is still evil, but helping the good guys might do this, but I would have him switch sides to evil at that last second to join the losing team for another challenge at times...He would just fight for the fight, never for the cause..
I have a major problem with the concept, Balors aren't just mildly evil. They are the Evil that Evil cowers from. They are formed from the most evil of evil souls. It would take a storyteller with talent far above the norm to pull that off with verisimilitude.They're free-willed sapient beings. They can choose their own path, and instincts can be overcome.I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that outsiders with an alignment subtype do not have free-will. Or at least not the same kind that mortals have. They are physical embodiments of an ideal and straying away from those ideals is against their nature.
If they don't have free will, then they can't be considered evil, because they cannot make moral choices. They're just puppets and can't really be held accountable for their actions.
Also, one's nature can be overcome.
If they don't have free will, then they can't be considered evil, because they cannot make moral choices. They're just puppets and can't really be held accountable for their actions.I have a major problem with the concept, Balors aren't just mildly evil. They are the Evil that Evil cowers from. They are formed from the most evil of evil souls. It would take a storyteller with talent far above the norm to pull that off with verisimilitude.They're free-willed sapient beings. They can choose their own path, and instincts can be overcome.I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that outsiders with an alignment subtype do not have free-will. Or at least not the same kind that mortals have. They are physical embodiments of an ideal and straying away from those ideals is against their nature.
But that's not how it works in this fantasy world. Evil is a property, not a decision. For extraplanar creatures of Evil - they are evil. They act evilly due to this nature. Not vice versa.
They are made of evil stuff but they can still make choices. The Wrath of the Righteous AP has a redeemed succubus in it and they have the evil subtype as well.
Isn't there supposed to be a redeemed Succubus in the Wrath of the Righteous AP? So that would give a basis to say that Demons could be turned to good without changing into something else.
*Ninjaed by Buri
Isn't there supposed to be a redeemed Succubus in the Wrath of the Righteous AP? So that would give a basis to say that Demons could be turned to good without changing into something else.
We'll see... whether she will be a redeemed Succubus, or a redeemed ex-Succubus (now being something else)...
Indeed. Pathfinder is guilty of self-contradiction by its various authors.
The Succubus is a matter of DM fiat contrary to the rules of the world. If you are wanting to do that - then there is no need for the question asked by the OP.
What happens to a Paladin Balor on death? Whatever the DM (author) decides.
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If they don't have free will, then they can't be considered evil, because they cannot make moral choices. They're just puppets and can't really be held accountable for their actions.
Also, one's nature can be overcome.
Outsiders aren't like orcs or goblins who's behavior is just a product of their environment. Demons and angels are literally a product of their environment. Ideals like good and evil in a fantasy setting are elements just as much as wind or fire.
They don't behave that way because of their own beliefs or teachings, but because they are actually made of the stuff.
Now, can that idea be sidestepped? Sure it can. There are numerous settings and worlds where things could work differently. I'm just stating the default assumed by Golarian and other d20 settings I'm familiar with.
Indeed. Pathfinder is guilty of self-contradiction by its various authors.
The Succubus is a matter of DM fiat contrary to the rules of the world. If you are wanting to do that - then there is no need for the question asked by the OP.
What happens to a Paladin Balor on death? Whatever the DM (author) decides.
Still, there is nothing in the descriptions of outsiders, creature types and so on or in the splat books that says this can't happen. I have no idea where it came from that it can't happen outside of feelings of "this is too weird to me."
Then how, pray tell, do they "fall"? Filing error in the Celestial Bureaucracy?
Sometimes their brethren are just jerks. For instance, Tabris is considered fallen just for doing his job.
Then how, pray tell, do they "fall"? Filing error in the Celestial Bureaucracy?
Improved Trip?
I'm with Lincoln there. Mostly because the one risen demon in my home campaign (a LG succubus) got that way by being tricked into kissing a Lawful Good god. She absorbed a tiny portion of his essence, and underwent a forced alignment change. I've not tried to reason out or roleplay such a shift, because I think it would be too hard.
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I follow the school of thought that since souls are indestructable, merely rebirthable or transformable... when an outsider is killed, their essence re-coalesces on their home plane in the lowest form of petitioner or denizen that plane can house -- for example, your average demon would reform in the abyss as a dretch, and would have to claw its way back up the totem pole to form into a more powerful demon again.
Since a demon, let alone a balor, is the pure essence of corruption, for it to be turned to law and good would be a journey of tremendous proportions, as its own nature and being would have to slowly transform into something else. It would probably have to decide it wanted to become lawful and good (that's a story right there) and then work toward changing the essence of what it is toward that over time.
If it was early in this process, it would probably largely still be a _demon_ and thus still an essence of corruption, however slightly altered, but would probably reform on the Abyss as a dretch per usual (where "usual" is how I interpret things).
If it was far along in this process that it actually slowly transformed from being an essence of chaos and evil to an essence of law and good, I would probably assume it would reform in an appropriate Lawful Good plane, and climb up the ranks from there.
Option c is my favorite though -- because it is so twisted in its nature no plane recognizes it as home, or because no one will have it, or simply because the Powers that Be determine this is the best option...
The balor's essence--with it's odd mix of corruption slowly reordering into good and honor--is reborn as a soul in a mortal humanoid. In its reborn humanoid life, it feels both terrible greed and anger, but also a deep yearning to change the world for the better and to be an honorable person. The path they choose to follow may further determine the fate of that soul in time...
Some interesting notes:
The Balor pings on detect good, evil, and chaos with equal strength.
If [Evil] spells are inherently evil to cast...I guess because they use evil energies, does this mean anything the Balor does is inherently evil since he's [Evil]?
A Balor that has become a Paladin has a lot of enemies. He's smart so he's undoubtedly made a number of contingencies using wish and other spells to help ensure a safe reformation upon "death."
Though, I suppose one could argue that a Wish would be sufficient to change his sub-types and align him to a new outer plane.
Good points.
1) If [Evil] spells are inherently evil to cast (which they are) then a Paladin won't cast them. Knowingly doing evil would surely cause him to loose his Paladin status. Also, the Balor is Lawful Good and so shouldn't even want to cast such spells.
2) Balor's are smart. But as a Paladin I'm not sure doing something so centered on self-preservation would have that high a priority.
3) Wish is powerful but its specific effects don't include changing sub-types. Perhaps reincarnate could change it's entire species and, therefore, all subtypes.
Outsiders are linked to the planes of their respective alignments. I'd say that just like erinyes are no long in the form or function (powers) of they angels they used to be, a balor that genuinely becomes LG will cease being a balor and become something else. The plane that now claims it would change it to something more in line with LG outsiders.
Though, you could make it semi-draconic in appearance to stand apart from the rest, maybe a few devilesque powers.