Goblin Squad Member
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Now, certain actions in Pathfinder Online are set to be "Heinous", which basically makes you 'fodder' for each and every person in the game. You're effectively a guilt and alignment-free pinata for the other players.
So why would you do it? Why actively put your neck on the chopping block while simultaneously mooning the rest of the players?
Why do people do stupid/evil/cruel things in the real world? Power.
So, how much more 'powerful' should the acts that will give you the "Heinous" tag, and eventually the "Villain" tag, grant you over other players?
The character has committed an act that is universally viewed as evil, such as raising and controlling undead, using slaves to build structures or gather resources, etc.
Each time the character gets the Heinous flag they lose good vs. evil.
Anyone may kill a Heinous character without fearing reputation or alignment loss.
Heinous is removed once the character has been killed.
The Heinous flag lasts one minute beyond the duration of the deed unless the character does something to get it again before the duration runs out. Characters using undead for example will have the Heinous flag the entire time they are using undead.
If the character gets the Heinous flag again within the duration of its existing Heinous buff, the count of Heinous increases by 1 and the duration resets ten minutes longer, up to a maximum of 100 minutes.
If the character gets to Heinous 10 they get a new flag, Villain, which lasts for 24 hours and does not disappear on death. It acts the same as Heinous, allowing repeat offenders to be hunted down for longer periods of time.
Now, from this little bit of text taken from the PvP Section of the Goblinworks Page, we can assume you'll get your Heinous/Villain Tag/Flag/I-Like-It-Rough Sign from the following actions.
1) Raising and using the Undead in any form.
2) Buying, capturing and using Slaves, in any way, shape or form.
3) Summoning or, ahem, 'Consorting' with entities form the Lower Planes.
4) Possibly allying with overtly evil forces, such as a Green Dragon, a warband of Hobgoblins or a group of NPC bandits not allied with Scarwall.
Undead .... there's been a lot of talk on the Boards about using Undead to form cheap 'swarm' armies to overwhelm settlements or to use as upkeep-free 'traps' in player-made dungeons.
So what makes an Undead stronger than, say, an Elemental or a Summoned/Bound Outsider?
Skeletal and Zombie Undead are all but immune to cold damage, have damage reduction and .... well, it's easier to list the things they are NOT immune to than what they are. Also, Mindless Undead don't demand shares of the party's treasure, don't form unions and won't complain if Fullskucker the Manly decides to entertain himself by gibbing a few minions while the Assassin and Necromancer work on the Magical Trap in the next room.
Hell, you can put them at the bottom of the lake and order them to guard a chest full of treasure, which makes an almost fool-proof anti-theft device against most low-level players.
Perhaps Undead are the only 'Summoned/Conjured/Bound' creatures that players can create that aren't on a timer? Meaning that a Necromancer can possibly, given enough onyx gems and corpses, field an army up to a set size of disposable troops that need neither food nor rest, and are not plagued by such piddling annoyances as fear or mercy.
Slaves represent a troubling aspect as not only are they living creatures bound against their will, but in Scarwall and Hell Knight-controlled/allied Hexes ... they're legal.
And where do you get Slaves from? What purpose can Slaves serve for the budding Evil Overlord that warrants the Heinous Tag and the inevitable Tea-Bagging Marathon to follow?
Slaves can, ironically, function quite like the Undead, except instead of a once-off cost of spell components (and possibly a high-level spell slot(s) taken up!) you need to feed them, give them some form of clothing and tools for their assigned task and make sure there is some method to stop them running away!
A theoretically limitless work-force that you can drive to the brink of death and not have to worry about Union or Guild repercussions, that you need only spend the bare minimum on to do what you want them to do. Unlike a 'Hired' NPC to take care of your Farm while you're away or Sell your goods while you're out of the 'Shop', a Slave would likely have minimal overhead costs at the cost of always looking to escape if they can get over their fear of you/magical bindings/surly overseers you've hired to keep them in line.
Summoning Demons, Devils and Yugoloths is going to be a big No-No just about anywhere, although in Hell Knight controlled/allied hexes, Devils would probably be a sign of great power and status, rather than 'heinous' crimes.
Imps to serve as your Familiars, Succubi to entertain your troops (and use their telepathy to flush out any potential saboteurs/uppity underlings) and more are all just a few spells away for the budding Conjurist .... assuming you have the components to cast the spell and both the willpower and talent to avoid being dragged down to the Lower Planes as a snack.
Young Red Dragon harassing your soon to be Temple of Fleshy Evil (All hail the Succubi Cults!)? Time to call on some fire-resistant denizens of the Lower Planes and have them assist good old Fullskucker the Manly in an (un)righteous ass-kicking on the uppity Wyrm.
Needing to bolster your efforts to destabilize the town of annoyingly goody-two-shoes a few hexes over? Summon the right sort of Fiend to possess an important NPC Merchant and send him on his merry way, with the Possessing Fiend funneling all those tasty merchant routes and defensive positions right back to you!
What do you guys think? What should be the 'pay off' for succumbing to Evil on such a grand scale? Why risk the 'Heinous' Tag if not for greater power?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now, certain actions in Pathfinder Online are set to be "Heinous", which basically makes you 'fodder' for each and every person in the game. You're effectively a guilt and alignment-free pinata for the other players.
So why would you do it? Why actively put your neck on the chopping block while simultaneously mooning the rest of the players?
...
For the good of the game.
You look surprised, but isn't that what it comes down to for one who has plenty of power, but is motivated by an aesthetic drive toward artistry?
Now, I'm by no means evil nor chaotic personally and I have no desire to cause anyone but mean people grief. But I am very interested in STORY. You cannot have a story without conflict and your hero is measured by the greatness of whatever villain(s) he/she overcomes.
If every worthy player goes for the good side and there are no great villains then I would reluctantly do my very best to play as great a villain as I can for the good of the game.
What is more I know, if people's words have been honest, that I am not the only one who would do so. If we won't, if we deny that possibility, then there will be no worthy content.
If some noble few step up and volunteer for the job out of personal preference than I will happily play my reclusive, quite powerful druid. But if they don't then I will ensure I have the wherewithal to do so.
It even sounds rather challenging.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do you guys think? What should be the 'pay off' for succumbing to Evil on such a grand scale? Why risk the 'Heinous' Tag if not for greater power?
Just guessing here, but in general I believe that "power" and "achievement of goals" are the motivators of many players. Use of acts that mark you as Heinous. would just help you achieve the things that you want quicker, cheaper, and easier.
Some may just do it for the thrill of bad/wrong/fun...
I don't think that the finished product of any such activity should make you more powerful, in the long run, than any player that uses more "politically correct" methods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But then why be Heinous? If it's only a small increase in speed/minor decrease in costs/materials, why risk your hard-earned gear for some dithering do-gooder to wander over and smack you upside the head?
Being makes a valid point that some players will choose to be Villains for their own reasons, either for the potential story-line or to accomplish a character-concept.
And Bringslite brings up another point. The 'Final' stage of whatever the Heinous/Villain Flag/Tag actions granted you should not make you more powerful than another character who has done it the 'politically correct' way, but do so faster, cheaper and easier.
I would argue that being Heinous should grant you slightly more power than a Non-Heinous Character, due to the fact that you're putting yourself out at risk to each and every person (and possibly Faction) in the game, but a staggeringly overwhelming power boost would just result in every man and his dog turning into a slave-driving Succubi-kissing necromancer, and the Game would turn into mush.
That said, a 'Heinous'-only Player Town where the Necromancers, Cultists, Blackguards and Assassins have gathered would be a frightening prospect. Everybody is fair game to everybody, but for mutual protection most of the Heinous Players avoid actively murdering each other and instead turn their impulses on any hard-headed heroes who come a'rovin'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, but we're also talking about a game setting where we can literally lose most of your gear upon death if you can't get back to your corpse in time.
I'm not advocating a great deal of power for the Heinous Characters, rather a small carrot to reward them for creating content for the other players.
Not everyone is going to want to be a Villain, and while Heinous shouldn't be a tag we see everywhere, every day, if we have less than 1/6th to 1/8th of the population as 'Heinous' Villains, then most people will never encounter such characters.
Role Play is all well and good, but if every time I log onto a character and get my ass beat because of that Role Play ... eventually I'm going to abandon the character and never look back, because being a constant target is not only frustrating but one of the biggest morale-busters people can come across.
Two of the actions that have been flagged as 'Heinous'-creating actions are Raising/Using Undead and Having/Using Slaves ... and those are constant.
What I'm trying to get across is sort of ... the Heinous path is the quicker, easier path with the great big pitfall in that you're now open season to everyone. How do we make the 'Heinous' Tag, and Villain Characters, more appealing to more players so that we have more player-generated content without it becoming the 'Path to Power', and everybody does it.
Most people I've played with, over the Table and Online, don't want to be the 'Bad Guy'. Sure, we'll have a dedicated few who'll pursue the Evil Path, but their characters will soon be well known, and targeted constantly. How do we reward these brave souls, and encourage more people to join them, either temporarily or on-again off-again, to ensure the Heinous Players do not die out?
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Goblin Squad Member
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But then why be Heinous?
I would argue that being Heinous should grant you slightly more power than a Non-Heinous Character, due to the fact that you're putting yourself out at risk to each and every person (and possibly Faction) in the game, but a staggeringly overwhelming power boost would just result in every man and his dog turning into a slave-driving Succubi-kissing necromancer, and the Game would turn into mush.
Some will do it because it is bad/wrong/fun and can't be done in the "real world" without serious life altering complications. Some will do it out of an Altruistic desire to take on the less popular role and provide content for others, as Being pointed out. Some a combo of both.
If assuming a "Heinous" persona grants any extra advantages, not available to everyone, then it will still be the more popular choice for many. The attraction of "advantage" is too strong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is that. I fear I am focusing too much on the 'Red Is Dead' mentality driving the 'Heinous' types away, but at the same point, if it IS more powerful than the other Flags, the Power-Gamers will all flock to it.
At the same point, if 'Heinous' blocks you from ALL factions except the truly Evil (And we're talking even the Bandits and Hell Knights will kill you on sight) then the power boost is cancelled out by the fact that you can't train with NPCs in the Neutral Towns, can't stay in vast majority of the player made/run villages and are totally reliant upon the crafting/gathering skills you and your 'allies' have developed.
That said, when/if players finally start building their own villages, I could fully see, and throw a character and some support, to the concept of a Heinous-only Settlement where everything is Player-Run, the Farms are tended to by Slaves, the Whor .... Taverns are stocked with Shape-Changing Fiends and the roving patrols of Undead guard the borders.
bolded for emphasis.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The expectation of most in the community is that there will be no dearth of players opting for the dark side.
Ryan Dancey has said that he expects the most populous alignment will be chaotic good.
In every other MMO I've played there have been plenty of people wanting to act out their darker fantasies. I believe we should encourage the developers to make a level playing field. I don't believe Heinous characters will need mechanical advantages. They should have to think things through and succeed through skill, coordination, and planning. For that matter all other alignments should have to do those as well to succeed.
So, in a nutshell, I disagree with what I take as your proposition that Heinous players should have built-in advantages over other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The expectation of most in the community is that there will be no dearth of players opting for the dark side.
I can expect an Ice-Cream Sundae when I head down to the local eatery, but there's no guarantee that I'll be able to find one. And we're also assuming that people will ~maintain~ their Heinous Flag. Some people aren't that dedicated, or might get bored, or get tired of being a universal punching bag with no way out.
Ryan Dancey has said that he expects the most populous alignment will be chaotic good.
Brethern of the Wandering Homicidal Hobos, present!
In every other MMO I've played there have been plenty of people wanting to act out their darker fantasies. I believe we should encourage the developers to make a level playing field. I don't believe Heinous characters will need mechanical advantages. They should have to think things through and succeed through skill, coordination, and planning. For that matter all other alignments should have to do those as well to succeed.
So, in a nutshell, I disagree with what I take as your proposition that Heinous players should have built-in advantages over other players.
Uh, 'wanting' is not the same as 'pursuing'. Let's hope you're right, Being, because I've also seen a lot of MMO Crowds turn around and abandon their RP right at a climax because they are Weekend Darklords and don't like revelling in Evil Acts all the time.
And less the 'Heinous' Players are getting a buff, but rather their actions are causing them to be slightly more powerful in certain and specific situations.
Think of it like the 'Defilers' of the Dark Sun Setting. You can increase your power by embracing evil and despoiling the world around you. On the surface, that doesn't sound too bad to a power gamer, but to the Role Players, this could be a big sticking point.
To be Heinous isn't "Oh, I feel like kicking a puppy today!", it's a dedication to Evil that stains the characters and drags them towards an Evil alignment, damn the player's preferences.
And as I keep saying, when I think 'Heinous', I'm thinking like a 'Level 4' Vampire from the Elder Scrolls. You've never been more powerful ... but everyone wants to kill you, and I mean everyone. To me, at least, being Heinous is pretty much exiling yourself from the Faction hexes and most other Settlements to pursue personal power.
To be Heinous perpetually shouldn't be something done lightly, but if chosen, there must be a reason to continue down this path, to ensure the Roleplayers have a steady number of allies to rely upon (backstab and use as decoys while they escape) and to trade, train and work with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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slightly[/b] more powerful in certain and specific situations.
Think of it like the 'Defilers' of the Dark Sun Setting. You can increase your power by embracing evil and despoiling the world around you. On the surface, that doesn't sound too bad to a power gamer, but to the Role Players, this could be a big sticking point.
To be Heinous isn't "Oh, I feel like kicking a puppy today!", it's a dedication to Evil that stains the...
I completely agree with heinous acts being the "quicker, cheaper, easier" actions then their by the books counterparts.
I do not think heinous should give you power or act like level 4 vampirism in TES.
However if they did take that route then it should not apply to heinous but rather you should not get that buff until you achieve the 24hour Villain flag.
If they did that however their should be a buff associated with all the 24hour flags.
But that opens up the issue that all the 24 hour flags are negative.
So we are further rewarding evil or bad play, Unless their is a positive action flag that counters that play.
then it might end up being a Min/Maxers dream because I can be a Villainous Assassin and gain 2 flag buffs while the Champion only gets his one.
the Concept for additional effects for 24hour flags such as villain isn't a bad idea at all, it does however pose a balance issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think players like idea of free agency: To be "bad or good". If I choose a shortcut to labour ie use undead puppets, what repercussions does that have and - can I get away with it?! It's tantalizing. You could argue giving players the free choice either way makes both choices have meaning in reference to each other. Additionally different experiences, a lawful good organised settlement where everyone discusses the smallest point of business of the day compared to an evil-chaotic every dog for itself, just don't go asking to many questions and you might survive!
Players like testing the limits the most.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been said that there shouldn't be any game-mechanical advantage to being Heinous. On the other hand, there already are mechanical penalties to being Heinous. I think it will be a tightrope for GW to walk, providing just enough benefit to make it playable, but not enough benefit to make it more popular than being non-Heinous.
Luckily, Villain is still temporary. Dismiss your skeletons, and tomorrow you can enter an evil-tolerant Settlement. Slaves may prove more problematic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Undead or slaves?
Surely a slave that dies becomes ripe material for undead, so slaves are the resource that keeps on working.
More seriously, I plan on being CN and will make use of undead where it is the best option. Now I'm prepared to put up with being flagged Heinous/Villain for a day or so if that's what it takes to efficiently finish whatever task I have planned that day.
However, I hope that there will be some action or actions that can swing the pendulum back the other way. When I get back from prising the MacGuffin of Power from the orcs, having employed my platoon of skeletons and then releasing them, will I recover the balance by then giving cash to the local orphanage and healing clumsy peasants?
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the reception I have often received, you would think Bandits also fly the heinous flag.
But to answer the OP's question... Why fly earn the heinous flag?
There is a certain pleasure in being heinous. Wear it with pride. It is an in-your-face kind of statement to be made to the rest of the community.
I personally don't plan on building anything or creating and controlling the undead. But, if there were a way for me through banditry, theft or murder to get the heinous flag, I certainly would do it from time-to-time.
At least I do have the Brigand Flag, I'll have to wear that one a few times, just for sh*ts and giggles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been said that there shouldn't be any game-mechanical advantage to being Heinous. On the other hand, there already are mechanical penalties to being Heinous. I think it will be a tightrope for GW to walk, providing just enough benefit to make it playable, but not enough benefit to make it more popular than being non-Heinous.
Yea I think this is how it should be balanced.
There is a mechanical penalty for gaining heinous/villain flag.
There is no mechanical benefit for gaining heinous/villain flag.
However the heinous/villain penalty is offset by the actions which trigger these flags being quicker/cheaper/easier actions then the by the books counterparts.
The villain/heinous actions should not be more powerful or more effective then their counterparts but rather more efficient.
The efficient should be attractive enough that the player has a hard choice between becoming heinous/villainous in the name of efficiency or maintain their good standing but doing actions by the book.
Risk/Reward
while the evil action isn't any more powerful or potent then the good actions, but rather a unsavory shortcut.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree about the occasional use of undead not being the actions of a Neutral character. I see Neutral as being neither good nor evil, but using whichever methods get the job done. It is obviously Evil to summon undead, but it is also Good to fight against oppression. Characters are traditionally expected to fight the evil overlord and nobody demands that their alignment become Good, yet using undead is seen as pushing you towards Evil.
After all, the Paizo descriptor for CN is: "Chaotic neutral represents freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal." In other words, you don't go out of your way to be either Evil or Good, but forge your own path.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Alternating between evil and good should be a tenth alignment: erratic.Pretending to be good in order to receive the social rewards while continuing to willingly embrace evil is the very heart of evil.
People who would pretend virtue should do so carefully, lest they become virtuous themselves. If you give good will to the abyss long enough, the abyss gives back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People who would pretend virtue should do so carefully, lest they become virtuous themselves.
Were Aristotle alive in the 20th Century, it's easy to imagine him saying "Fake it till you make it".
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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People who would pretend virtue should do so carefully, lest they become virtuous themselves.Were Aristotle alive in the 20th Century, it's easy to imagine him saying "Fake it till you make it".
Aristotle/Neitche fanfic? I'll have to work on a representive sample.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the very least I plan on having one character Good and one character Evil.
Raising undead and summoning deamons sounds like fun.
Killing undead and deamons sounds like fun.
Killing a merchant on the road even though he offers you money to leave him alone, sounds like fun.
Killing a bandit that kills a merchant on the road who offered him money to leave him alone sounds like fun.
In the end, its a game and ment to have fun with, if its an option that can be done it will be done. The good times await.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've played Evil characters in the past, but generally end up performing so many Good deeds that I now prefer to stick to Neutral. I like the option of using Evil tactics where needed (undead guards are the ideal bodyguards), but find it hard to play the consistently evil character that an Evil alignment would demand. It is probably the real-world human part of me empathising far too much with a fantasy NPC, but I can't be totally nasty in a game without actually feeling guilty.
Conversely, when playing Good characters I have no such difficulty in keeping to the straight and narrow. Probably too many morality fairy tales when I was young, lol.
I am, by the way, the first to recite the adage that the character is not the player and that the world is make-believe, so don't feel that I'm making any sort of judgements here.
