Tying politics and the politics together ...

[pennywit]

I just downloaded "Sound of a Thousand Screams," and I'm a little underwhelmed. Nyrissa and her motivations kind of come out of left field, and her goal (absorb the PCs' kingdom into a bauble) seems a little smallish.

I was toying with the concept, and I wonder if anybody has tried the following:

1) Foreshadow Nyrissa's motivation by adding some prophecy and lore elements to earlier modules. Perhaps Vordakai alludes to her while monologueing.

2) Expand Nyrissa's motivation beyond the PCs' kingdom. She's not just interested in the Stolen lands. She's interested in either the River Kingdoms or the whole of Brevoy.

3) Expand the geographic area and timeline of the blooms from one month to something like two years, and have the blooms appear not just int he PCs' lands but elsewhere.

4) Set in front of the PCs the goal of not just protecting their kingdom from Nyrissa, but uniting Brevoy, the River Kingdoms and/or anybody else they can find into a political alliance capable of facing down Nyrissa and her minions.

Has anybody tried anything like this?

[pennywit]

The subject should be "tying politics and Nyrissa together."

[Orthos]

Simple answer: No I didn't. I wanted less overall politics in my game rather than more.

Long answer: Here's my revision of Nyrissa's backstory both to give her a better reason for wanting to gank the Stolen Lands (in short, the land is infused with her stolen Nobility [the original draft has Ambition, but a few posts down someone points out why that's a bad thing for a BBEG not to have so it was changed based on recommendations], heavily encouraging the rise of so many petty kingdoms in the region and other would-be lords like Hargulka and the Stag Lord) and to revise her history for my own setting.

[Gargs454]

I haven't gotten to Sound of a Thousand Screams in my reading yet, but everything that I've heard certainly suggests that they writers did a fairly poor job of foreshadowing N. I mean the DM knows it from early on, but odds are the players won't -- if you run the path as written.

That said, I personally like what you have laid out. The potential problem with bringing Brevoy into the mix is that Brevoy is going to be pretty fractured as it is (though it would be easy to try to show N's influence in that as well). Certainly, going after all of the River Kingdoms could make sense, and much of Book 5 could be about N's plan being to simply weaken the River Kingdoms. She doesn't really care who wins the war, so long as those that are left are noticeably weaker, and thus, less resistant to her plans.

As for Vordekai, I think he represents a perfect place for notable foreshadowing. Both because of who he is and because of his placement in the path (i.e. he represents more or less the halfway point of the campaign). However, someone (and I can't remember who) had an interesting idea on these boards. Rather than make him some sort of ally of N, make him a long-time foe. Thus, by offing Vordekai, the PCs are actually helping N.

As for using him to foreshadow, I'm not a big fan of monologues. One, the players can potentially ruin it with "I shoot him in the face." and two, it is just one of those tropes that has never set well with me. However, as a wizard, it is certainly likely that Vordekai has spent a tremendous amount of time researching and studying N (particularly if they are enemies). When the PCs defeat him, perhaps they find a journal with some of his notes about her. Maybe he even went so far as to lament the harshness with which he has had to treat others, including turning into a lich, but believes it was necessary "for the greater good". etc. I wouldn't necessarily lay it all out for the PCs, but certainly he could give them a big head's up.

[Orthos]

Gargs454 wrote:

As for using him to foreshadow, I'm not a big fan of monologues. One, the players can potentially ruin it with "I shoot him in the face."

One of the best ideas I've heard is that V has magic mouths and visual ports placed around his dungeon (I forget the spell referenced, but the way it was used in this case basically gave him magical security cameras - not scrying I think, but something weaker, as a permanent construction in each room), where he can communicate with the party as they make their way through. Up to the GM if these messages are in real-time or pre-programmed stuff by V in the event of an intruder before he's fully awakened (and now that he has, he's been too busy dealing with the Varnholders to disarm them, and they're already keyed not to react to him and his zombies - or perhaps anything undead or daemon, period).

There were of course a few rooms that were "safe" and unobserved, where they could bar themselves in and set a watch if they needed to rest, but otherwise V could taunt and exposit throughout the dungeon as necessary without waiting for a villainous monologue just before the battle that could be interrupted by an overzealous attacker.

[pennywit]

It's going to be a few months yet before I think I can get my regular group to let me GM them through Kingmaker, so I'm still spitballing ideas. Orthos, thanks for the rewrite of Nyrissa's background. The Sumemr/Winter conflict is one theme to play with. I'm also toying with other things. I just re-read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, too, so that's given me some ideas to play with.

Three story ideas really appeal to me:

Powerful objects. "Thousand Screams" briefly mentions that Nyrissa might have several objects from past modules in Fable. Among them the Stag Lord's helm, the Oculus of Abaddon, and so forth. Why would she need them? Perhaps these items of power are necessary in order for Nyrissa to draw the Stolen Lands into her snowglobe. And what makes these items powerful? Yes, the Stag Lord's helmet gives its wearer that nifty insightful shot ability, but that's not why it's important for our purposes. It's important (and powerful) because, for a time, people in the Stolen Lands feared the Stag Lord. That fear turned it into a legendary object, and that legend means Nyrissa can use it for her deeds.

The objects could be any number of things that the PCs acquired over the years, especially objects they sold or threw away as they replaced them with more valuable gear. All that occurred: Pitax, Hargulka, even the PCs' triumphs, was to create items of power by channeling peoples' dreams and fears into those objects.

When Nyrissa or her minions possess these objects, they can work powerful (i.e. epic or deity-level) magics that manipulate the very land itself through the power of dreams, legends, and stories.

Places of Power. In classic high fantasy stories, places of power often play a role, either as symbols or as places of actual power. Rivendell in Lord of the Rings. The Stone Table/Aslan's How in The Chronicles of Narnia. Yoda's tree in Star Wars. I'm thinking that certain places in the Stolen Lands and beyond might play similar roles. The Stag Lord's fort might be one. The Observatory in Brevoy might be another. Vordakai's tomb could be such a place. But controlling at least some of these places of power would be necessary to any great working.

And ... oh, look, did the PCs build their capital on top of one of these places of power? Isn't that a coindence?

Gathering of forces. As I alluded to with politics above, I rather like the idea of something big and apocalyptic. The First World blooms (which might space out over a year or two, rather than a month) are about Nyrissa sending her forces to invade Golarion and to secure places and objects of power. At the same time, she starts gathering to herself whatever allies she can -- and she might even try to sway some of the noble houses of Brevoy or some of the River Kingdoms to throw in with her.

At the same time that Nyrissa is doing this, the PCs could gain a sense of the gravity of the threat she represents ... so they should also begin gathering their allies. They could call in old favors. Attempt to resolve long-festering political disputes in neighboring countries ... or even conquer neighbors who aren't cooperating.

Where does it lead? I have no idea if this would work in actual play, but I have this vision of giving the players each a couple characters to play with. As their original PCs invade Thousandbreaths, their allies (also played by the players) simultaneously challenge her dominion in her places of power, probably through the mass combat rules. Leading up to the final confrontation with Nyrissa, For each place of power that the PCs' allies conquer in the Stolen Lands, they would gain some bonus in their final combat against Nyrissa. Perhaps she loses some of her immunities. Or perhaps she vanishes mid-combat to attend to one of the places of power, giving the PCs time to recuperate.

But the idea is to tie together both aspects of Kingmaker -- the epic story of the PCs kingdom, and the more personal struggle between the PCs and Nyrissa.

Maybe it would work. Maybe not. But like I said, I'm just kind of spitballing here.

[Orthos]

It definitely sounds like a good start for a framework. Looking forward to where you take it.

[pennywit]

Thanks. I think I'll need to figure out the faction rules as well as the kingdom building rules. As far as the game, I've been really inspired by RedCelt's Brevic Game of Thrones. Mortal politicking really appeals to me.

[CalebTGordan]

I don't have time to really post a response but I do have one. The short of it is to consider the history and nature of the BBEG and make changes from there.

She is a First World creature that has been stuck in Thousand Voices for thousands and thousands of years. The Stolen Lands have been touched by her influence for a very long time. She is very, very powerful but has very very power enemies that work to keep her from her goals.

Figure out what she wants, what her plans are, why they are going to be suddenly coming together in the PCs lifetime, what her enemies have been doing to fight her, and how she has operated the entire time she has been in the Stolen Lands.