Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is that players are not equal. Even if you perfectly balance it, I'm still going to be worse at PvP than others.Dude, if you can't beat me then...well, that is sad. ;)
A lot of us have picked up inferiority complexes from being out-geared in twitch games that required macros we weren't using. I know I did when I played AoC.
Then I played a mesmer in GW2 with PvP that auto balances the toons and Lo and behold i was killing it in PvP.
If the combat has the right pacing and the power curve is done right I think most of us will find we are not as bad as we thought we were.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup, they did and it should. Other hand the idea that running (and jumping) depletes stamina was pretty unpopular among some of our colleagues here.
I think anything that simulates "wading through mud" in melee is a good thing.
One of my hopes is that I will be able to examine any build B, and point out that there is a different build C that uses only 75-95% of the total experience costs of B, such that C dominates B in a duel.
I'd be happier if I could not only do that with individuals and duels, but party synergy and group battles. I'd be ecstatic if I could prove that it was possible to develop such a counter-plan, but found that it was complicated enough that I couldn't solve a couple specific cases...
I'm a big fan of the paper rock scissors system in that each build has another that it clearly superior to and clearly inferior to. In small combat it makes what build you bring more important and in large scale combat changes the tactics you use depending on the opposition.
I do realize that it will be upsetting to show up to certain battles and realize that your build has you at a clear disadvantage before the fight even starts but it makes the choice more important. (and if you can see just by the opposition that you'll get destroyed you're still left with the choice to run away)
I think given there should a wide divergence of skills everyone chooses from (eventually) and therefore during combat encounters there will be unequal encounters, but it's for each player to determine the game plan in combat eg highly specific and superior in such a context and useless in more other contexts or more general given more changeable combat encounters but still competitive.
I also think it will be a bit more interesting than just that general decision making: I think because we can switch weapons we'll be doing a sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamically changing which we are using according to what the other player uses and obviously attempting to do that at the most optimal time according to stamina? Plus not knowing what the other player has in their arsenal again I think that's going to be about gaining experience.
That's my general expectations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is that players are not equal. Even if you perfectly balance it, I'm still going to be worse at PvP than others.Dude, if you can't beat me then...well, that is sad. ;)
Yeah, I beat this guy so soundly in Viking Raiders 5 he repressed the memory. Ask him. He doesn't remember me, or ever playing Viking Raiders 5. He says he's never even heard of it.
That's how bad it was!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is that players are not equal. Even if you perfectly balance it, I'm still going to be worse at PvP than others.Dude, if you can't beat me then...well, that is sad. ;)Yeah, I beat this guy so soundly in Viking Raiders 5 he repressed the memory. Ask him. He doesn't remember me, or ever playing Viking Raiders 5. He says he's never even heard of it.
That's how bad it was!
I think that I LOVED that game....?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that I LOVED that game....?
You did until that one night you, the creators of every major search engine and game data-base, and a lot of the readers of this topic took your twinked out level 100 accounts vs my level 1 Awesomezerker in the starter gear in a 1337 vs. 1 match.
They shut down the game after that because too many were throwing themselves onto funeral pyres to avoid the shame of the aftermath. The lucky ones like you were able to repress the memory.
Yup, they did and it should. Other hand the idea that running (and jumping) depletes stamina was pretty unpopular among some of our colleagues here.
While I am not one of the people that is super annoyed by those things, as a trained martial artist it often breaks my immersion in a game quite a bit. Anyone with training in hand to hand combat knows that movement in combat is crucially important... very few people actually jump around, however. Normally, movement is part of the two combatants attempt to gain the proper position to launch an attack or part of said attack. It can also be part of a defense, of course, but no one runs in circles hopping up and down every chance they get. MMA has shown us quite well what happens to martial artists who attempt to use jumping techniques regularly enough to allow their opponent to anticipate it... and it's not pretty.
Not pretty at all. IF you don't believe me, watch some of the first UFC's, where the Brazilian Jujitsu stylist and wrestlers(Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock, mostly) completely destroyed all the karate/taekwondo/kung fu guys. It was brutal.
As long as some movement is possible during a fight, or there are maneuvers that allow us to move and attack at the same time I think it will be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Zanathos - Isn't that a combination of 2 things:
1. Most fights end up in a grapple on the floor
2. Critically dangerous attacks are not allowed in UFC eg throat, eyes, genitals etc which are core attack point in eg Jujitsu.
But that's just a discussion point, I agree totally, movement is economical and tactical - not glitchy!
@Zanathos - Isn't that a combination of 2 things:
1. Most fights end up in a grapple on the floor
2. Critically dangerous attacks are not allowed in UFC eg throat, eyes, genitals etc which are core attack point in eg Jujitsu.But that's just a discussion point, I agree totally, movement is economical and tactical - not glitchy!
1.)Yes, in real life and in MMA. I've seen someone grab a martial artist using a jumping technique and turn it into a takedown. It was ugly. I saw a Youtube video of a MMA fight, where one of the guys was a capoeirista. Hey spent a lot of time jumping around and doing flips. It was beautiful and enterntaining... until the traditional MMA timed one of his techniques and caught him with a Muay Thai style front thrust kick in the face as he was coming up out of a roll. The guy had to wipe bits of the dudes face off of his foot afterward - literally. It was ugly.
2.)Most martial art styles teach strikes that are aimed at vital spots when you get far enough into them. Most of these techniques are taught with the caveat of 'don't use this at home kids' because they're lethal techniques. The human body is a very fragile thing, to be honest. There are more ways to maim and kill a human being with nothing but your bare hands than most people really understand. Many of them don't even require large amounts of force to be applied. The only techniques that aren't allowed in most MMA fights are strikes to the throat, top of the head and back of neck and head, eye gouges and strikes to the spine or kidneys, or directly to joints. Most of these can be lethal or crippling if applied with sufficient force and proper technique. Those are direct strikes, throws and takedowns are different. About the only ones of these that are illegal that I know of are the ones that land the target of the technique headfirst(normally top of the head) into the mat. MMA is still a sport, so it makes sense that they disallow lethal and crippling techniques. Even with that, most of the arm and leg locks that are used to submit opponents can be lethal or crippling...
Sorry if I wrote a book... it's a lifelong passion. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as some movement is possible during a fight, or there are maneuvers that allow us to move and attack at the same time I think it will be fine.
You're probably already aware of this, but the devs have already described some combat abilities that will function like the 5-Foot Step. I'm quite hopeful that a number of other combat maneuvers will eventually be modeled like this.
As long as some movement is possible during a fight, or there are maneuvers that allow us to move and attack at the same time I think it will be fine.You're probably already aware of this, but the devs have already described some combat abilities that will function like the 5-Foot Step. I'm quite hopeful that a number of other combat maneuvers will eventually be modeled like this.
Actually, I missed that somehow. That's kinda awesome, and it's good that they're sticking with concepts from the game. I wouldn't want them to try to adapt Pathfinder 100% to PFO, but the closer they keep it to Pathfinder the more the fans will be happy about it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if it drove away some of the whining drooltards that populate most MMO's, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The human body is a very fragile thing, to be honest.
Sorry if I wrote a book... it's a lifelong passion. :)
Yes, that's the problem with a lot of movies, the hero gets kicked to kingdom come and then "laaa!" (Dumb & Dumber ref!) jumps back up and kicks ass with a single uppercut to the chin of the enemy. Also think it is a bit of a problem with mmorpgs especially tab-target hot-key where characters hit each other then heal then hit in a boring rote pattern.
More realistically characters would become more and more worn out. I think PFO has taken this up and will have seriously walking wounded who'll need shrines to fully shake off serious injury (I certainly hope so) ie there will be longer-term arc of incapacitating damage the more beatings an avatar takes the bigger the toll to healing paid. All good in my book.
I know in Aikido you can grab someone's arm and then throw them to ground or down back-first onto your kneeling position which I remember being told is completely illegal, maybe it's called a "knee-breaker" in other martial arts. In fact iirc correctly Aikido comes from an old martial art that was mainly used when a Samurai had lost their sword and therefore may need to disarm* another sword-wielding Samurai - a karate flying kick would no doubt have been skewered in half! ;)
*Speaking of which: That might be a very interesting skill for Monks one day. ;)
The problem with techniques that cause your opponent to fall onto you in that they always have the potential to injure you as well. Even sacrifice throws(a throw where you land on top of you opponent) can be risky because there's always a chance that the opponent partially counters it to the point where you take damage as well.
Aikido is partially developed from several martial arts(this is from reading about it, aikido is one of the few martial arts I'm really interested in that I've never found a sensei I wanted to study with), and one of the main influences is jujitsu(which I have studied) which is the art that you are speaking of - it comes from the style that some samurai practiced for self defense when unarmed or disarmed. I believe it also borrows from tai chi chuan and a couple of other chinese styles. It's one of the reasons that jujitsu and aikido are so effective even today. They were designed to be used by an unarmed person versus someone holding a friggin' katana! While a gun is not a katana, if you're inside of 5 feet away from them it's practically the same thing from a practical point of view. Heck, at that range a katana is probably MORE dangerous in the hands of a trained person than a pistol is in the hands of a normal person...
I do agree with you, I'd love to see some throws and takedowns added to the monk class... something besides just a hip toss or a leg sweep, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The circling, bouncing style of MMO combat comes from manipulation of the medium, pure and simple. It has little to do with anything that would happen in a real, physical fight, and everything to do with the programs, the controls, and the players.
Many players never use the strafe movement keys. Strafing is sometimes faster than turning in place. Many MMOs don't have an option to make a character automatically spin to keep an enemy in view. Even if that option exists, some people become nauseated when their character starts spinning automatically to keep an opponent in view. Some keyboards and control pads can be customized to make spinning and strafing much easier than the default keyboard settings in most MMOs. Jumping movement is often faster than walking/running movement. Most MMOs have no built-in limit on movement during combat. Most MMOs do keep track of facing, and attacking an opponent who is not right in front of you is penalized or impossible.
Put all those factors together, and jump-circling becomes an incredibly powerful way to attack PCs. Add in the amusement factor of a savvy, practiced attacker (sometimes with specialized real-world equipment) utterly humiliating an unprepared opponent, and the current situation in most MMOs seems almost inevitable.
I'm so, so glad that Goblinworks is working to give jump-strafing a gigantic Achilles heel in the form of Opportunity and Stamina.
Edit: One more factor: In most MMOs, NPCs don't strafe, so players who rarely fight other players don't get any practice in strafing and spinning or in reacting to opponents who do.