First off, I'd like to say I'm very new to Pathfinder Society, but I've played Pathfinder for over a year and a half.
A buddy of mine, whom also is a player on my weekly games, is playing a level one human summoner. At level one his eidolon was able to charge and deal 30 damage to a boss. His build is as follows...
Feats - Spell focus (Conjuration)[Human feat] and Augment Summoning
First Prestige points (Wand of Enlarge Person)
[Works on him due to the share spells ability]
Eidolon: Build - Biped (Bite: 1d6)
Evolution - Pounce and Claws x2(Claw: 1d4)
Feats - Multiattack
When mixed together, his pet attacks at a +6 Bite (1d8+5), +4 Claw (1d6+5), and +4 Claw (1d6+5).
I have been trying to find out how this is not legal because everyone at the table seems to feel very under powered. For the most part, this is most peoples very time playing. Let me know if this is legal, and if it is, then I suggest heavy combat players should put away their barbarians and pull out a summoner. (JK)
have to have quad form to use the pounce evolution.
I mixed that up, it's quad build and only +5, +3, and +3 for attack rolls
You don't need multi attack if your only using primary attacks. How is he getting a +5 to attack with +0 bab and 14 strength? It should be +2 for all 3 shouldn't it?
Summoners are capable of having pounce and 3 natural attacks from the start. Its perfectly legal. I don't think its that overpowered. A little startling if anything. Summoners tend to attack a lot, but they don't have much strength and are attacking at 3/4 BAB and reduced HD.
Answer to first question is usually. Answer to second question is no. It looks legal based on a quick glance.
Welcome to the backseat.
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Let's see...
First, Augment Summoning says it applies to creatures you "conjure with any summon spell". This won't apply to the eidolon (unless there's an exception I missed somewhere).*
Second, Share Spells might not allow enlarge person. It reads: "The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider)." The second sentence could be read as being a further addendum to the first, which would mean the spells being talked about in the second sentence are only the ones already mentioned in the first sentence. However, it's possible that's not the case, and I don't know whether there might be clarification somewhere.
Also, Multiattack doesn't affect the build you described at all, since all of his attacks are already primary.
But yes, summoners are ridiculously broken and I wish they were banned.
Thanks, I'll bring all these concerns to the table.
Good to know. I very much appreciate everyone's help.
Sniff Sniff... I smell... Summoner hate! Understandable though, you get 2 PCs, an expendable creature to take all the risk and a caster to buff him up or summon in more expendable creatures.
I think pounce is an issue with all the other martials more than the eidolon personally.
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A wand can't be used with Share Spells - you're not casting the spell, you're triggering it. Scrolls work though, and Enlarge Person does work.
Scrolls are out as well
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n9yEnlarge person does work... if the summoner casts it using one of her spell slots.
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A wand can't be used with Share Spells - you're not casting the spell, you're triggering it. Scrolls work though, and Enlarge Person does work.
I'm with Jiggy on banning them. And Pounce, for anything but animal companions.
I just think the rules for natural attacks need a hard looking into. Having 5 attacks all be primary attacks with full to-hit and damage bonus is a bunch of :bleep:. There should only be 1 type of natural attack(per creature) that is considered primary, everything else should be secondary.
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Also, Multiattack doesn't affect the build you described at all, since all of his attacks are already primary.Jiggy forget to mention that the listing for the Bestiary in the additional resources bans the multiattack feat unless another book specifically says that they can take it.
Eidolon's receive automatically multiattack at level 9.
From what is posted it appear the summoner was applying augment summoning to his eidolon and forgetting the -1 attack penalty for large size.
I just think the rules for natural attacks need a hard looking into. Having 5 attacks all be primary attacks with full to-hit and damage bonus is a bunch of :bleep:. There should only be 1 type of natural attack(per creature) that is considered primary, everything else should be secondary.
Natural attacks suffer their own set of issues. Overcoming DR, for example, can be a huge problem for natural attack builds. One that cripples their damage output.
I just think the rules for natural attacks need a hard looking into. Having 5 attacks all be primary attacks with full to-hit and damage bonus is a bunch of :bleep:. There should only be 1 type of natural attack(per creature) that is considered primary, everything else should be secondary.A wand can't be used with Share Spells - you're not casting the spell, you're triggering it. Scrolls work though, and Enlarge Person does work.
I'm with Jiggy on banning them. And Pounce, for anything but animal companions.
I should probably note that its all at 3/4 BAB and reduced HD. It takes a bit of dedication to bring that up, and the static 14 strength for quads isn't the best for hitting things. Now when they grow large its a different story, but I should note that 3/4 bab needs a static source of damage or a lot natural attacks to be good.
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Enlarge Person as a wand won't affect the Eidolon.
Multi-attack isn't an allowable feat, but doesn't do anything anyway. Gaining a feat at a later level isn't the same as it being selectable.
Augment Summoning doesn't work on the eidolon unless summoned using the Summon Eidolon spell. Specifically spell, and not available until level 4.
PS. This eidolon has 14 AC (12 when pouncing) and 6 hit points. This changes to 12 AC (10 when pouncing) when the summoner uses one of his spells per day to cast Enlarge Person on it. When it drops into negative hitpoints it doesn't disappear, and the summoner has to spend a standard action to dismiss it before he can summon anything else.
When done properly, its attack routine when enlarged (which takes a full round to cast, remember) is:
Bite +3 (1d8+3) and 2 Claws +3 (1d6+3).
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I just think the rules for natural attacks need a hard looking into. Having 5 attacks all be primary attacks with full to-hit and damage bonus is a bunch of :bleep:. There should only be 1 type of natural attack(per creature) that is considered primary, everything else should be secondary.A wand can't be used with Share Spells - you're not casting the spell, you're triggering it. Scrolls work though, and Enlarge Person does work.
I'm with Jiggy on banning them. And Pounce, for anything but animal companions.
That and a more strict limit on how many total attacks they can get
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I hate summoners, I think they are overly-complicated, difficult to adjudicate in a short time slot like PFS, and easy to overshadow other PCs with.
I've liked the players I've seen use them, they do a good job of roleplaying and ensuring that they don't overshadow other PCs, and are a good addition to my tables.
I like the magus class. I think they are fun, fill a unique roll, and are a blast to play with in a game.
That said, they are easy to abuse, and I've often seen them overshadow other PCs. They take the center stage in many games, and often make everyone else feel less important.
The point of this simple comparison is that, as Andrew said, it's the player, not the class, that is the problem in the equation. Those of us that dislike summoners, gunslinger, magi, and alchemists do so because of personal preference -- but ultimately its the player that chooses what they do and how they are built.
Alchemist have hate? Huh. Why hate the alchemist?
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and easy to overshadow other PCs with.
If I wanted to overshadow other players at low level, I would bring a barbarian with a 20 STR and dumped CHA.
Chug an enlarge potion (accelerated drinker), rage on and wreck havok with 3d6 + 15 at level 1. While that eidolon is struggling with a +3 to-hit bonus, I'm rocking a +8 at 1st level. DR? Who cares when your minimum damage is enough to one-shot most tier 1-2 encounters right through DR.
I like the magus class. I think they are fun, fill a unique roll, and are a blast to play with in a game.
Trust me, my magus is far more dangerous than he ever was in his prior life as a synthesist. He also puts my current summoner to shame.
Alchemist have hate? Huh. Why hate the alchemist?When you miss precise bombs doesn't work, I've knocked party member unconscious from it before. So now my alchemist is way more cautious with his bombs, that instead of focusing on buffing his bombs he is now more focused on buffing his party.
They get feat taxed to buff the party, and taxed again to bomb without hitting the party, and they removed the one archetype that gets rid of bombs from society play. Its an awkward place to be an alchemist sometimes. I could see being bothered by taking a bit of splash damage, but usually if anyone's at risk they don't let me bomb anyway.
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I admit, I get a sinking feeling when a summoner shows up at my table. Not because the Summoner class is overpowered, but because it's very hard to design and play one by the rules of the game, and I know that, for the next four hours, they may be running a seriously over-powred character because I won't have time to look up the rules. (See the original post.)
I love sitting down with players and auditing summoners and eidolons, though. They can show me the cool things the character can do, and I can double check things like Augment Summoning and attribute arithmetic.
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Enlarge Person won't work on an Eidolon because the target is not "You". It will if it's a humanoid eidolon, however (but then no pounce).
Enlarge does work.
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
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This is one of those rare occasions when I agree with some of the people on this thread who I often don't agree with... my biggest problem with summoners as a class is that where the argument about gunslingers or alchemists being OP can go on and on - they have to be close enough to the "action" so that there's actually a personal risk to playing such a character. Even a musket master with a distance weapon has to stand closer than an archer-fighter or zen-archer in order to be effective. A summoner, on the other hand, can stay far enough away from the fight to be out of range of everything except "long range" spells, and let his/her eidolon do everything. No personal investment from the character (I've seen some people role-play very personal attachments in-game to their eidolons, but I've seen far more people not really care and just use their eidolons as attack-bots).
I do agree, to a point, that the class is less of an issue than how players use them. If someone sits down at the table and openly states that all they want to do is "win the scenario", it almost doesn't matter what class they're playing - it's not as much fun to play, or GM, with people who bear that mindset, in my humble opinion.
Rage chemist is one of the worst archetypes. They are suicidal because they have to roll a will save or they lose 2 intelligence and take -2 to every will save after, until they hit 0 intelligence and go comatose. Its also standard action to drink, only 20 minutes of mutagen, and a lengthy cool down.
*alchemist weak save and wisdom isn't one they have class synergy with..
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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and easy to overshadow other PCs with.If I wanted to overshadow other players at low level, I would bring a barbarian with a 20 STR and dumped CHA.
Chug an enlarge potion (accelerated drinker), rage on and wreck havok with 3d6 + 15 at level 1. While that eidolon is struggling with a +3 to-hit bonus, I'm rocking a +8 at 1st level. DR? Who cares when your minimum damage is enough to one-shot most tier 1-2 encounters right through DR.
Indeed, there are many ways to overshadow other PCs. That is why with character creation we must be mindful of the others that can make up a table.
I like the magus class. I think they are fun, fill a unique roll, and are a blast to play with in a game.Trust me, my magus is far more dangerous than he ever was in his prior life as a synthesist. He also puts my current summoner to shame.
I am aware of the strengths of this class. In great detail.
;-)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Rage chemist is one of the worst archetypes. They are suicidal because they have to roll a will save or they lose 2 intelligence and take -2 to every will save after, until they hit 0 intelligence and go comatose. Its also standard action to drink, only 20 minutes of mutagen, and a lengthy cool down.
*alchemist weak save and wisdom isn't one they have class synergy with..
Indeed. That said, I still find the combination to be one that overshadows other players at the table and makes games less fun for those not playing level 3 character with a STR 30. (I was incorrect on my math a bit...the Mutagen adds +6 strength.)
With a +1 greatsword and power attack, they are rocking a +12 to hit at level 3, that hits for 2d6+19.
Let's add enlarge person and bull's strength to the equation. +6 more STR.
Now he has a +14 to hit for 3d6+23. At level 3.
That's pretty inappropriately powerful.
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and easy to overshadow other PCs with.If I wanted to overshadow other players at low level, I would bring a barbarian with a 20 STR and dumped CHA.
Chug an enlarge potion (accelerated drinker), rage on and wreck havok with 3d6 + 15 at level 1. While that eidolon is struggling with a +3 to-hit bonus, I'm rocking a +8 at 1st level. DR? Who cares when your minimum damage is enough to one-shot most tier 1-2 encounters right through DR.
Indeed, there are many ways to overshadow other PCs. That is why with character creation we must be mindful of the others that can make up a table.
I like the magus class. I think they are fun, fill a unique roll, and are a blast to play with in a game.Trust me, my magus is far more dangerous than he ever was in his prior life as a synthesist. He also puts my current summoner to shame.I am aware of the strengths of this class. In great detail.
;-)
I know you are.
It just rankles me when people, in general, put down a class they don't understand as overpowered.
If there is any class in this game overpowered at low level, it is the barbarian. Yet, I never see any "Barbarians are Overpowered" threads.
Barbarian isn't overpowered. He's just got nice things. Casters say hi.
Barbarian isn't overpowered. He's just got nice things. Casters say hi.Hello. My level 1 burning hands did 4d4+8 damage. =D
My color spray has ended encounters before the foes have moved. My create pit has done the same. My haste controls your heart beat and the pace of battle. My hexes have made GMs walk away from the table. I don't roll the dice, when I can make you roll one for me. I can even make you roll again if I didn't like the first try. Who needs damage? The power of magic is versatility and having more options than straight damage. Talking about that talks about the core of the game and about martials and casters. Probably too deep for this sort of thing.
Back to summoners, they have a lot of versatility and the eidolon has a very nice build your own nature to it. I've seen some amazing ideas for eidolons and I enjoy seeing that. I have nothing against a character who doesn't put himself at risk, that was his decision and it shouldn't interfere with your fun, unless your fun is killing the player anyway. Its his character. The OP got his answer right?
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My color spray has ended encounters before the foes have moved.Barbarian isn't overpowered. He's just got nice things. Casters say hi.Hello. My level 1 burning hands did 4d4+8 damage. =D
My level 2 barbarian/oracle has ended encounters before they moved. Without buffing.
She still had her sword for the next 5 encounters.
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I think Summoner is the most powerful, and ptoentially scenario dominating class in PFS.
Mine covers high damage fighter, skill monkey, Face, and high AC "tank" roles without really expending any resources.
I have shelved my summoner completely, I like his character and I like the class. I try not to step on other peoples toes, but the class is simply too powerful.
Also, it's incredibly easy to do things wrong with evolution points, herolab is actually quite good at curbing those issues.
My color spray has ended encounters before the foes have moved.Barbarian isn't overpowered. He's just got nice things. Casters say hi.Hello. My level 1 burning hands did 4d4+8 damage. =DMy level 2 barbarian/oracle has ended encounters before they moved. Without buffing.
She still had her sword for the next 5 encounters.
Missed the point.
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My level 2 barbarian/oracle has ended encounters before they moved.Hello. My level 1 burning hands did 4d4+8 damage. =DMy color spray has ended encounters before the foes have moved.
Bards end encounters before they begin. Most powerful class in the game. ;)
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Missed the point.
Not really.
I play a variety of characters. Casters, partial casters, pure melee. I have wizards, sorcerers, magi, summoners, sythesist, fighters and barbarians.
At low level the barbarian dominates them all. She reliably one-shots anything thing she starts within 40' of. Every single encounter. The oracle spells have so far just been out of combat healing.
My wizard hoards spells for when they are meaningful. He spends a lot of time with ray of frost/acid splash taking a -8 penalty to attack rolls. He spent level 1 in a module that had exactly 1 encounter that was not either undead or a construct. A barbarian and fighter killed everything. He never had the option to cast color spray (it was memorized).
Magus is good, after a few levels. Starts more slowly.
The summoner's eidolon has a good AC, after I buff with mage armor, but only mediocre damage. In fact, damage output is less than half my barbarian's. Against something with DR5 (very common to date)? He deals almost no damage. If he does get hit, he's toast. The eidolon has 19 hp at 3rd level compared to the summoner's 30. At 4th level the eidolon will still have 19 hp and the summoner will have 39.
Fighter starts weaker, but eventually catches up and passes the barbarian (weapon training, fighter only feats, etc.).
I disagree with most of that, if not all. The topic was about whether a summoner's build was legal or not anyway.