It's about time to fully unify divine and arcane spell lists

[Natan Linggod 972]

Just taking a quick look at classes that "break" the arcane/divine divide, Bard, Witch, Adept (npc class I know but still), Wizards with the right specialisation (Wood for example), Oracles with Haunted or some Mysteries and Clerics with the right Domains.

Really there is no real reason to divide the spell lists any more. Healing is no longer the province of divine casters only. If it ever was as Bards have been casting healing spells since forever.

Sure, keep a handful of spells as Divine only, ones that require the direct intervention of their deity and such, (ones that specify sacred/profane effects maybe?). Maybe a few that are arcane only, such as ones that affect an arcane caster level?

Otherwise, I don't see any real reason to keep the lists separate.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Power to the people!

[Byrdology]

If you combine the spell lists then why play a wiz at all? Clerics and Druids would have much better survivability.

[Rynjin]

Exactly.

May as well combine the two classes in that case.

3/4 BaB, d8 HD, choice of either Arcane school or Domain?

But that would lolunbalanced, so whatev.

[R_Chance]

As Byrdology and Rynjin pointed out, not a good idea. Unless you're a huge fan of Clerics or you have some other method of limiting access to spells for Clerics (ie. custom lists per deity, or portfolios / spheres / domains that limit what spells the Cleric can use). Or, hey, you just hate Wizards...

[proftobe]

Because all of your examples only really get a few spells generally along a theme rather than access to the complete spell list. One is a neat loophole.for specific types.of characters the other would be pretty unbalanced since there would be no reason to play a wizard since a.cleric.would have access to all his spells and.better hit die saves and Bab woo while wearing a breastplate.

[DrDeth]

No thanks.

[Natan Linggod 972]

Why play a wizard? So I can cast the spells I want, take actions I want and generally live as I want without being worried that my source of power is going to disapprove and take away all my abilities.

And if your GM allows clerics to get away with everything without looking at it through the lens of their particular deities purview, they're doing it wrong. Or at least lazily.

Or change the levels of spells. Have the "traditional" clerical spells be a level or two higher when used by a wizard and vice versa.

[Ascalaphus]

The divide isn't about arcane vs. divine. The druid list is very different from the cleric list, but both are divine. The witch and bard both pick from traditionally divine and arcane lists, but their spell lists are fairly different.

Every class list is significantly different.

[Natan Linggod 972]

I don't see why though. Why would a cleric of a god of nature have different spells from a druid of the same god?

Why can't a wizard learn to cast positive energy spells to heal? After all, they can cast negative energy spells in necromancy. why can a bard learn to remove poisons but a wizard can't?

I suppose my thinking is this way after reading so many fantasy novels where wizards CAN cure ills, at least in a small way.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not wild about the divided spell lists either. I think BAB did a good job on harmonizing multiclassing among martials, but the separate spell progression, caster levels and spell lists made spellcasters much harder to multiclass.

However, changing that has major obstacles
* spontaneous vs. prepared casters; can't really blend them together for spells per day
* spell knowledge: clerics knowing all the wizard spells would be bro-ho-hoken. Wizards with freedom to learn some key cleric spells would also be broken.
* full and partial casters vs. the level of spells: if a spell (Tongues for example) is level 2 to a bard and 4 to a cleric, what level does it become in the unified system?

[ElyasRavenwood]

Natan Linggod 972 if you want to combine both lists for a home game go for it.

“The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Mastershave a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.” Page 9 Core Rule Book.

And admittedly this game is one of the few places you see a division between Arcane and Devine magic, however, this division has been there, I believe since the beginning of the game.

Bards, haven't been casting healing spells forever. Bards, way back in 1st edition were what we now would refer to as a prestige class. First one had to take 5 levels of fighter, then you switched to thief. and sometime before 9th level, you switched over to Bard class, gaining acess to druidic spells, because you were under their training. In second edition Bards had access to arcane spells. And in third edition Bards got their own spell list which had cure light wounds on it.

But I digress. The question is why not merge the two lists? It would cause many more problems then it would solve as it was mentioned up thread. Being able to cast what you want when you want to hardly seems like a sufficient reason to make a such a drastic change.
The spell lists the various spell casting classes have are there to help define one class from another.

I know we all like to tinker with the game. For example, I myself would like to align spell casting access with base attack bonus, just has hit dice has been aligned with base attack bonus
.
+1 good base attack bonus=d10 hit dice= Paladin/ranger spell schedule
+3/4 Medium base attack bonus=d8 hit dice=Bard/Magus/inquisitor spell schedule
+1/2 base attack bonus=d6 hit dice= wizard sorcerer (cleric druid) spell schedule

I would like to cut the cleric druid and oracle's full spell schedule out and replace their spell schedules with the spell schedule of a Alchemist/ Bard/Magus/inquisitor/summoner spell schedule but this would mean crafting new spell lists for a 3/4 bab clerical divine spell caster and druidic spell caster. I want to make this change because i think the Cleric/Druid/Oracle are a cut above the other classes, and I want to bring them "back in alignment" with the other classes in the game. Well it is a work in progress.

I guess all I am saying if you are going to make such a drastic change to your game take the time to look at what the repercussions will be.