Vassals, Hargulka, etc.

[pennywit]

I've downloaded the first couple modules in the Kingmaker adventure path, and I'm kind of impressed, both with the setting and with the immense amount of fan-created material here.

I'm thinking about running this for my regular gaming group, but I have a couple questions/thoughts:

If there's one bit of consistent commentary here, it's that kingdom-building gets a little unmanageable after a while. Are there any rules anywhere (homebrew or elsewhere) regarding vassalage? That is, PCs start their capital, then start a town in another hex. When the town reaches a certain size, they grant the land to a lesser baron who then manages that town as his own fiefdom. Are there rules for covering vassals? If my players don't want to be bothered with building the fifteenth tradesman's shop in their home city, I don't want to play accountant for four or five vassalages as GM. I was thinking of something like for the rules, if there are no rules already out there:

1) PCs' kingdom must have reached the "duke" level before they can award lands to vassals. When they create a vassal, they must designate at least one town and three adjacent hexes to be the fiefdom, and must appoint an NPC as lord.

2) Each hex in the fiefdom generates 1 BP that will be sent to the PCs as liege-lords each turn. Any town in the fiefdom will generate additional BPs sent to the PCs, based on the size/population of the town (not sure how much this should be). Additional BPs and other benefits are assumed to be used by the vassal to administer his fiefdom.

3) Each turn, each fiefdom makes its own stability check, based on the stats of its vassal. If the fiefdom fails its stability checks, it will slowly fall into anarchy.

4) The fiefdom has Economy, Unrest, etc. stats independent of the liege-lord's domain, dependent on the stats of its vassal.

5) Any fiefdom on a frontier (defined as adjacent to unsettled or unclaimed hexes) will gain 1 hex every third turn. A fiefdom not on a frontier will gain some bonus (unsure what) as its internal cities grow.

6) If any fiefdom grows to more than one-third the size of the liege-lords entire kingdom (including both the core kingdom and all fiefdom), that fiefdom's vassal will declare independence of his liege-lord.

7) Disputes between vassals, or between vassals and their people, will arise at the GM's whim.

I will admit I'm not totally set into the kingdom rules. Would something like this be workable? I think I would use these rules for settlements, etc., that PCs specifically award to vassals. If they give certain rights to the Sootscales or other players, I would probably treat those as relations with foreign nations.

Second question:

Hargulka.

I've read some of the ways that people expand on his role here, and I like it. Somebody else remarked that as written, he seems like a very passive villain. I agree. He seems too much like a standard dungeon monster who sits in his lair and waits for the PCs to come kill him.

I was thinking of taking a different tack. I'm considering adding an NPC and his retinue to the mix: Gr'Kellik, a Lawful Neutral half-orcish cavalier. I was thinking of introducing him as a highly honorable enemy early in the campaign (maybe as a guest stopping over at Oleg's).

This half-orc would show up a couple times during Stolen Land, perhaps helping defend Oleg's from bandits or competing with them in the hunt for Tuskgutter.

Then I'd give him a starring role in Rivers Run Red. At the same time PCs build his kingdom, Hargulka will build his own kingdom to the south. As the PCs try to deal with the various entities in the Stolen Lands, they'll occasionally run across Gr'Kellik acting as Hargulka's emissary to various folks, trying to persuade them to join Hargulka's Grand Trollish Doman. Gr'Kellik might even visit the PCs and help them defend their own home from invaders. (Note: If there is an attack on his host, as a guest he would be obligated to take up arms and defend his hosts).

(As an aside, I'd probably add an orcish or goblin village or three somewhere in the Stolen Lands. These folks would not directly challenge the PCs to combat, though they might be openly hostile).

I think Gr'Kellik might be an interesting addition, especially if he leaves Hargulka's service late in Rivers Run Red; after all, trolls are not exactly known for their honor, and Gr'Kellik wouldn't want to serve a lord who breaks his oaths.

What do y'all think of these?

[Orthos]

First off, your orc fellow. I like it, I like the idea of someone the PCs have come to respect standing in as Hargulka's face-man and providing a viewpoint of "how can this guy be as bad as we think he is if this guy we're cool with is okay with working for him?" And then of course when things go sour the PCs get the satisfaction of being proven right in the long run.

This of course is riding on the hopes that your PCs won't just up and gank the cavalier before he gets the chance to check out of Hargulka's service; some groups would be so incensed by the perceived "betrayal" of a would-be allied or friendly NPC joining the chapter villain's side that they'd attack immediately. If your players won't do that, run with it; if they might, would probably be well advised to think up contingencies and escape plans for him in advance, just in case.

RE: the kingdom building bit - my group isn't up to that level yet so I don't know off the top of my head, and I'm at work at the moment so no books on-hand. I recall something on the mention of vassals, but nothing beyond "this group of people/monsters pledges fealty to you, have a BP bonus" on the random events chart; everything beyond that is pretty much assumed to be left to roleplay out. Your rules seem simple and pretty workable, though I wouldn't know without testing.

[pennywit]

Thanks. I would hope that PCs don't kill Gr'Kellik right away. (CF: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1280) I'd try to walk a fine line, actually, between establishing him as an ally vs. a worthy opponent. I kind of like the idea of setting him up as somebody who's having his own adventures during Stolen Land, then coming into Hargulka's service during Rivers Run Red ... and, if he survives, becoming a competing lord in his own right during the ensuing modules. ("Yes, you're fighting an evil, insane fae queen. That's very nice. But if you want support from my Worg cavalry, then you must grant fishing rights to the town of Orcwallow for the next ten years").

I'm also toying with adding the debate rules from Atlas Games' Dynasties and Demagogues to the mix.

Edited to add: I think the first key is that if/when PCs storm Hargulka's lair, Gr'Kellik won't be there. The second key is, at least during RRR, to put the PCs in situations where killing Gr'Kellik is a bad option. Say he is lord of a village, and hosts the PCs in his home for talks with Hargulka. Are the PCs really going to kill their host, especially after he has sworn an oath to defend them as if they were members of his household for the duration of their stay?

[Eric Hinkle]

There are rules for handling vassals and vassalage in one of the free Wayfinder fan-produced magazines here on the site. It should be in number 5, along with lots of other fun material for a Kingmaker campaign.

EDIT: And here's the link for it.

[GM_Solspiral]

I have rules for it as wll search GM_Solspiral's Compiled houserules...

Basics pay cost of knights estate, commander's upkeep, and sacrifice 2 hexes of development and gain a vassal lord with a 500 man army in return best part they pay their own upkeep off the land sacrificed (idea of farmland for soldiering.)

[pennywit]

There are rules for vassals in Ultimate Campaign.