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I feel as though sometimes we assume that Evil Deities are one-dimensional and their followers insane. I made this topic for everyone to give input about what aspects of the Evil Gods appeal to them. Some evil deities seem inconceivable centers of worship to me but that's because of my personal beliefs. Please don't simply say that Evil gods have no benefits, I'm interested in what in them appeals to you as a human.
Let me start with my take on Lamashtu. To me Lamashtu is the breaking of social conventions in the realization that EVERYONE is actually a monster on the inside. The more holy a person is, the more miserable they truly are. It's better to be honest with yourself about who you are and quit trying to pretend you're better than what you are.
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Norgorber, from what I see, seems to embrace the inner corruption of humanoids. Kind of similar to what you speak of when it comes to Lamashtu, but not exactly the same. The "ideal" for a Norgorberite seems to be knowing better and being quicker than others, all so you can step on them, preferably in a way from which they can't retaliate. And really, that just sounds like how capitalism works nowadays.
*Rimshot*
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Asmodeus can be said to have social darwinist and Nietzschean undertones. I can easily see his faith appealing immensely to those with a strong sense of personal ambition and manifest destiny.
This strikes me as being precisely the root of his appeal to Chelaxians.
I'd say Asmodeus is more on the "Hobbes was Right" side of philosophical debates as well as supporting misogyny. I wouldn't say Asmodeus invokes the Übermensch ideology at all, since he wants to lay low all mortal souls instead of letting them become individual, to choose their own paths and become unfettered by those norms set by the Other.
Actually, Norgorber seems to encourage people to such a path.
So Asmodeus in your opinion is about trying to corrupt the situation to your benefit?
One of them, anyway. He also innately appeals to people who believe sincerely in the necessity of a powerful hierarchy. I can see his faith appealing both to ambitious ladder-climbers and to those who desire above all else to express their superiority and dominance over others.
I'd say Asmodeus is more on the "Hobbes was Right" side of philosophical debates as well as supporting misogyny. I wouldn't say Asmodeus invokes the Übermensch ideology at all, since he wants to lay low all mortal souls instead of letting them become individual, to choose their own paths and become unfettered by those norms set by the Other.
Actually, Norgorber seems to encourage people to such a path.
My point was that I can see him holding appeal to ambitious people who believe that they're the ones who should impose that order over others. It's not the "free yourself from the constraints of society" aspect of the Übermensch concept as the "Now enforce your vision upon the world by virtue of your superiority" aspects.
Your version is another way that seems perfectly legit to me.
"Freedom begets weakness. Submit and be strong."
Fair enough. Philosophy isn't black and white after all.
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To tackle a deity with some less obvious "positive" appeal, I'll take on Rovagug. His primary appeal is to anyone so battered, rejected, and hurt by the world that they'd rather see it burn. He is ultimate vindictive childish spite. Anyone whose ever felt truly, deeply beaten down without any conceivable recourse can imagine being so angry that the whispers of the violence beneath the earth can be felt urging them onward to do unto others as has been done to them.
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I personally feel that Rovagug is a religion of fear. Worship me or you will suffer far more when I escape.
Not particularly positive, but I can't see much positive in it.
For me Zon-Kuthon teaches a reverse Buddhist faith: The more you suffer the happier you are. Live for strongest emotions, the strongest experiences imaginable because death is terrible. It focuses on the relation of suffering art and knowledge IMO.
This is an interesting discussion, one that warrants a better response than I'll likely give at this point.
One key aspect to divine worship is the ability to receive spells despite some level of divergence from the deities alignment; clerics can be within one step of their patron's alignment, which on the surface may not seem like much, but it offers a huge level of malleability to the Faith.
It would seem to suggest that a deity is influenced to some degree by his worshipers; Asmodeus himself is Lawful Evil, and yet he has followers are can ignore the evil aspect and focus solely on the lawfulness; I can imagine a lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus bringing much good into the world simply by upholding the laws of the land, assuming those laws don't already favor or encourage evil. If a cleric of Asmodeus does good in the land, does that mean that, in some vicarious way, Asmodeus does good?
My point is that, at some point, it stops being about the god itself, and the focus shifts to the cleric, whom is a representative of their god, but also a human being with free will.
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Urgathoa.
Disease is necessary. All death is necessary but disease is not simply death. Disease is suffering, is the weakness that leads to new strength, is the scythe that culls the old and the weak from the herd.
Disease spreads through the herd, brought by one little human and spread to the rest of them. They have so many ways of propagating, so many different vectors. So many different kinds of death and suffering and new beautiful strengths to be bestowed to those who accept her gifts and grow strong because of it.
By testing the herd the strongest grow stronger. The weakest are culled, brought to the bosom of the Lady. And she has plans for them. Undeath, the continuation of a life too strong to die. Undeath to spread the diseases, to strengthen those worthy of her gifts. Those who are strong will grow stronger, will feed on those who are weak.
And thus... even weakness is necessary.
It is all necessary.
Zon-Kuthon
Pain is the essence of life itself. Without pain, there can be no striving for betterment. Pain is what makes us cleave to life, and it hones us into sharper, quicker, smarter versions of ourselves. Pain is not to be avoided, but embraced as the most effective teacher you will ever study under. Embrace your pain, for it is what makes you truly alive!
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Szuriel, Horseman of War.
For some that have nothing left, all they can do is take away from others.
And yet others still, while they may see themselves as worthless, may have others who they see as worth everything in the world. So if something has hurt them or tries to hurt them what little price such as your worthless souls as you see it to make sure they never hurt anyone ever again.
It is the ultimate act of Altruism, this wrath.
With Destruction you bring Protection to those you care for.
Whether an overwhelming victory so powerful and complete as to cowe any creature from even thinking of slighting your cherished, to pyrrhic wars so horrible as to drive all involved to despair and an end to their ways.
This is not case of avenging yourself, but of avenging those who should have never have been hurt. To make the offenders hurt. Much. Much worse than antyhing they could have conceived versus others.
Because when you only count yourself, all you are is skin housing rage and spite and resentment, and may the gods have mercy on those who try to take those brief bright spots away from you. Because you will not.
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Any of the Horsemen.
You are either uncertain of the future or know every step you will take, but you don't want any of that.
The memories are too strong, too painful, too real to you.
You do not seek paradise nor praise, or redemption.
You merely wait for the darkness the comes after everything.
An endless dream from which nothing escapes and nothing is created, that never ends.
You desire peace.
You desire the end of all the suffering and existing.
You desire Oblivion, and nothing more.
Abraxas
Knowledge is powerful, whatever that knowledge may be. But it can also be dangerous. For this reason the so-called 'civilized' cultures demand the destruction of this dangerous knowledge.
There is no greater sin than the destruction of knowledge. Every thing, every thought, every Word has power, has meaning, has worth. Knowledge must be preserved, must be kept safe, must be used so it is not forgotten. But it must be used with wisdom.
We have that wisdom. And so it is our divine duty to learn everything, to save it from destruction, to keep it safe, and in the end use it to destroy those who would destroy such Words...
Nothing is more important than knowledge. Than Words. Than power.
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Asmodeus represents a rational check on the horrors that can occur when creatures are only governed by their base desires. Freedom and free will sound great on paper until someone does something awful with their ability to choose. Asmodeus isn't terribly thrilled to have to take on the parent role for all of creation, but it's a sacrifice he's willing to make to ensure that everything doesn't just fall apart.
Control for supposed safety in exchange for freedom. why does that sound familiar....
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I kind of turned that around in my homebrewish alt-FR game. In the Moonsea there, they worship the Dark Gods, but they basically get lied to - they don't think they're evil, just harsh in response to a harsh world. So Loviatar, for example, takes on the suffering of her flock, and teaches wisdom through painful experiences. Her clerics flog themselves in return for donations to the church, sending the pain of those donated for to Loviatar through their own suffering.
For another example, Bane is seen as a savior, rescuing the flock from false gods who would make them too weak to survive in their harsh environment. His "might makes right" rule comes naturally to them because their whole culture is based on it. And submitting to authority (Bane's authority, of course) both strengthens his church and makes people work together more in a chaotic frontier, ensuring more little Banites eventually.
I don't have any experience twisting the Golarion gods this way, but I'm sure it could be done. Because, who wakes up and goes, "Welp, gonna worship a crazy evil god from now on."
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Groetus: Everything must come to an end. Everything. While you may certainly make theories of what will happen then and discuss them, the very basic truth is that the truly big things are valuable partly because they will end one day. The very existence of Groetus is such a reminder to all: Live today.
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I kind of turned that around in my homebrewish alt-FR game. In the Moonsea there, they worship the Dark Gods, but they basically get lied to - they don't think they're evil, just harsh in response to a harsh world. So Loviatar, for example, takes on the suffering of her flock, and teaches wisdom through painful experiences. Her clerics flog themselves in return for donations to the church, sending the pain of those donated for to Loviatar through their own suffering.
For another example, Bane is seen as a savior, rescuing the flock from false gods who would make them too weak to survive in their harsh environment. His "might makes right" rule comes naturally to them because their whole culture is based on it. And submitting to authority (Bane's authority, of course) both strengthens his church and makes people work together more in a chaotic frontier, ensuring more little Banites eventually.
I don't have any experience twisting the Golarion gods this way, but I'm sure it could be done. Because, who wakes up and goes, "Welp, gonna worship a crazy evil god from now on."
Slim Shady and Marilyn Manson :3
Dot for later perusal and perhaps addition... maybe.
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To tackle a deity with some less obvious "positive" appeal, I'll take on Rovagug. His primary appeal is to anyone so battered, rejected, and hurt by the world that they'd rather see it burn. He is ultimate vindictive childish spite. Anyone whose ever felt truly, deeply beaten down without any conceivable recourse can imagine being so angry that the whispers of the violence beneath the earth can be felt urging them onward to do unto others as has been done to them.
Exactly. I also feel like this can work with Zon-Kuthon but in reverse, i.e. followers of Zon-Kuthon are ones who become so beaten and broken but instead of annihilating others seek to mutilate and annihilate themselves until the only thing left is the monster that can survive their miserable world. To them the mutilation is transformation, killing and mutilating themselves in order to give birth to something new and more adapted to the harshness of their reality. And when they accomplish that "joyous" ascendance all they want to do is share it with others, usually with brutal and tragic results.
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To tackle a deity with some less obvious "positive" appeal, I'll take on Rovagug. His primary appeal is to anyone so battered, rejected, and hurt by the world that they'd rather see it burn. He is ultimate vindictive childish spite. Anyone whose ever felt truly, deeply beaten down without any conceivable recourse can imagine being so angry that the whispers of the violence beneath the earth can be felt urging them onward to do unto others as has been done to them.Exactly. I also feel like this can work with Zon-Kuthon but in reverse, i.e. followers of Zon-Kuthon are ones who become so beaten and broken but instead of annihilating others seek to mutilate and annihilate themselves until the only thing left is the monster that can survive their miserable world. To them the mutilation is transformation, killing and mutilating themselves in order to give birth to something new and more adapted to the harshness of their reality. And when they accomplish that "joyous" ascendance all they want to do is share it with others, usually with brutal and tragic results.
Ooooh. I've always thought of Zon-Kuthonites as being sadists, sometimes scary, but one-dimensional. Expanding that to the truly self-loathing, I like that. Torturer as the self-loathing one-time weakling trying to purify themselves, now that's interesting.
The thought of a genuinely kind-seeming man or woman whose been through the gauntlet and is out to mutilate and violate the people they love in order to awake in them the same peace-through-pain that gave them their own cathartic self-actualization is bloody terrifying.
"I know it hurts, child. Shhhh. I know. Take heart, soon your chrysalis will open in a cacophony of glorious screams, and from the lattice of pain you will rise anew."
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To tackle a deity with some less obvious "positive" appeal, I'll take on Rovagug. His primary appeal is to anyone so battered, rejected, and hurt by the world that they'd rather see it burn. He is ultimate vindictive childish spite. Anyone whose ever felt truly, deeply beaten down without any conceivable recourse can imagine being so angry that the whispers of the violence beneath the earth can be felt urging them onward to do unto others as has been done to them.Exactly. I also feel like this can work with Zon-Kuthon but in reverse, i.e. followers of Zon-Kuthon are ones who become so beaten and broken but instead of annihilating others seek to mutilate and annihilate themselves until the only thing left is the monster that can survive their miserable world. To them the mutilation is transformation, killing and mutilating themselves in order to give birth to something new and more adapted to the harshness of their reality. And when they accomplish that "joyous" ascendance all they want to do is share it with others, usually with brutal and tragic results.Ooooh. I've always thought of Zon-Kuthonites as being sadists, sometimes scary, but one-dimensional. Expanding that to the truly self-loathing, I like that. Torturer as the self-loathing one-time weakling trying to purify themselves, now that's interesting.
The thought of a genuinely kind-seeming man or woman whose been through the gauntlet and is out to mutilate and violate the people they love in order to awake in them the same peace-through-pain that gave them their own cathartic self-actualization is bloody terrifying.
"I know it hurts, child. Shhhh. I know. Take heart, soon your chrysalis will open in a cacophony of glorious screams, and from the lattice of pain you will rise anew."
Yeah I know really makes Nidal and all the written encounters people have with the Zon-Kuthonites all the more terrifying. Second I felt like it matched the theme the Kytons lay down as well, for further proof check out the termigant?(I believe that is the correct name) kyton from inner sea bestiary. The content just writes itself.
Ohhh also now I want to see a character built around your aforementioned parental relationship, ohh maybe a monk of some kind. I can hear him now "I was born a mortal weak in body and feeble in mind. Through my training and craft, I have ascended beyond the creature I was before."
Hmmm I needed a reason to play a monk in pfs...
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Droskar: Things are not as good as they were. Everyone is poorer now, there is less food, the children that are born, few and far between, are sickly. And yet... We DID follow the old traditions. We made the proper sacrifices. Torag got his due, like clockwork, every day. The ancient stories of the heroes of old feel like nothing more than bitter taunts. And the lands are fallen to our old enemies and the mines are drying up. Torag deserted us. Last year, the treacherous youngling priest and his followers left our home of a thousand years to seek new lands as beggars and outcasts.
But I know the traditions given to me by my father, once given to the first dwarf by Torag himself, are true and strong. We can make weapons to kill the goblins. We can survive off our mushroom beds for as long as it takes. In an exceptional situation, we must all see through the suffering and pain, accept our lots in life, and sacrifice for our community. So what if Torag ignores us now? We can show him we held to the traditions and survived. So what if we don't have time for art? Plenty of time after the crisis is over. So what if our children don't laugh? What matters is that they survive.
I still wished Droskar was Lawful Evil like his awesome 3.5e counterpart Laduguer.
Dotted. These are pretty interesting takes
Dotted.
"Freedom begets weakness. Submit and be strong."
I had an Asmodean NPC use this exact quote in my game session last night.
Thank You.
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"Freedom begets weakness. Submit and be strong."I had an Asmodean NPC use this exact quote in my game session last night.
Thank You.
I have a friend with a LN Chelaxian inquisitor of Asmodius in PFS. His favorite line is "The innocent have nothing to fear. Of course, no one is truly innocent."
Urgathoa:
Nothing is more important than the goals, desires, and pleasures that cross your path. Chase them with the greatest zeal and let nothing stand in your way. Not even death itself.
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Evil is essentially selfish. Evil gods seem much more eager to grant power. Selfish power hungry types have a lot to gain from aligning themselves with evil gods.
This is not necessarily true in game terms in a game like Pathfinder where good deities dole out power as well but from a literary/historic perspective the allure of evil is that it often provides a seeming easier or faster path to power. God does not grant magic but the devil does, that sort of thing. Just ask Yoda.
"Freedom begets weakness. Submit and be strong."I had an Asmodean NPC use this exact quote in my game session last night.
Thank You.
You're quite welcome!
Asmodeus: Law is the only shield verus Chaos. Law has to be applied without the mercy of good...which allows chaos to exist. Those who enforce the Law must defeat chaos with whatever means neccessary...for if chaos exist...How can you be safe? How can you prosper?
Lamashtu: So you are reject because of a deformity....'society' shuns you in digust. But it is not realy disgust that they shun you...it because of the power that your deformity gives you. Come serve the Mother....she will protect you and love you...teach you to sttrike back at 'civilation' that rejected you. And if you learn her lessons well...you can deform the whole world....and in a world where everyone is deformed...no one is.
Norgorber: The world considers you weak...you don't have the fighting ability or the magical ability to be really 'powerful'...but real power are not those thigs. What is powerful a secret that will cause 'good' men ashamed to the point where they are runned out of town? The mightiest of wizards or warrior all fall to the power of knife thrust while they sleep or the poison in their drinks. Why should the clever be subjurgated by these bully boys?
Rovagug: Everything comes to a end. The world is falling apart anyway...why don't we end the suffering?
Urgathoa: They say the death is inevitable. I say that people are to corwardly to do what is neccessary to do what they must to fight death. In undeath we ultimately spit in Death's face. Don't listen to the propganda about theundead...because vampires, ghouls, etc. all are ready and willing to share their blessings with you...all you have to be is brave enough to accept.
Zon-Kuthon: Life is Pain. That is the only truth out there. So to enjoy life...you must learn to enjoy pain. Those who don't experience the bliss of pain and embrace it...don't really live.