So, it is my intention to include psionics - Telepathy only - in my campaign setting in a very specific region. I don't like the ruleset used by 3.5 or Dreamscarred's update of it (I just don't care for that system or the skill-based systems which are also prolific). The idea is highly influenced by the Babylon 5 TV series. What follows is a bit of brain storming to help form the idea and intended structure.
Telepathy can be broken down into the following four subcategories:
Telepathy
Assault: Direct attacks on an opponents mind, fear, pain, altering perception (illusions). Think attack modes like ego whip, id insinuation, though my goal is not necessarily to recreate the 2e psionic system (though I'm also not against it - we'll see where this goes).
Defense: Protecting your mind and others, blocking sense/detection. Tower of Iron will, Mental Barrier and so on.
Sensing/Detection: sensing & reading other minds & psionic use.
Communication: commanding, erasing/adding/editing minds, creating links, sending & receiving information, language.
Each category will contain a list of powers, usable by anyone with the appropriate character level, knowledge, and the Psionic feat (or "telepath" class). Appropriate character level will be defined as a static level in the telepath class, or for those just taking the feat, as follows:
BAB Based Psi-Level
Psi-Level
= 1/4 character level + ability modifier: full bab.
= 1/2 character level + ability modifier: 3/4 bab.
= 3/4 character level + ability modifier: 1/2 bab.
= full character level: telepath & monk (with psionic feat).
Each power will have a Psi level and minimum knowledge(psionics) to use consisting of something similar to the "easy, basic, tough" setup (though a bit more involved than that), for Example:
Mental Barrier
Psi-Level: 1st (easy)
At 4th level, a full bab class could use it; 2nd for 3/4 & 1/2 bab; monks and telepaths could use it at 1st (assuming a monk and the other non-telepath classes took the psionic feat).
Any constructive thoughts, criticisms, and suggestions are welcome.
Edited to Add: I'm also considering the idea that magic (divine, arcane) and psionics (mundane) do not mix and preventing those classes which have access to magic of either variety from taking psionics. I'd appreciate thoughts on this, as well, from an objective mechanical standpoint.
I'd go with a fixed 1/2 non-psionic character level adding to psionic power regardless of bab, 3/4 level for semi-psionic classes (depends upon what you would count as such - monk for example, perhaps soulknife, perhaps aberration racial HD) and full level added to psionic power for telepath classes and psionic prestige classes.
There is also important question which of two paradigms of psi you want to use:
1. Non-psionic creatures are harder to influence because they are not psychically sensitive (Witchworld). Untrained psionic creatures are easier to affect. Trained psionic creatures are easier to affect when they are not prepared to defend, forced to lower their defenses or surprised while using their abilities outwardly but harder when they are fully prepared and on defensive.
2. Non-psionic creatures are easier to influence because they lack innate ability to psychically defend themselves (Babylon 5).
If the first, non-psionic creatures would have large bonus to defense only, while psionic creatures could have a large bonus that has to be split between defense and active use of their abilities.
I'd go with a fixed 1/2 non-psionic character level adding to psionic power regardless of bab, 3/4 level for semi-psionic classes (depends upon what you would count as such - monk for example, perhaps soulknife, perhaps aberration racial HD) and full level added to psionic power for telepath classes and psionic prestige classes.
I think I like your arrangement far better than my original. I'll add this to my current notes and try to get a working google doc up tonight, after the gym.
There is also important question which of two paradigms of psi you want to use:1. Non-psionic creatures are harder to influence because they are not psychically sensitive (Witchworld). Untrained psionic creatures are easier to affect. Trained psionic creatures are easier to affect when they are not prepared to defend, forced to lower their defenses or surprised while using their abilities outwardly but harder when they are fully prepared and on defensive.
2. Non-psionic creatures are easier to influence because they lack innate ability to psychically defend themselves (Babylon 5).
If the first, non-psionic creatures would have large bonus to defense only, while psionic creatures could have a large bonus that has to be split between defense and active use of their abilities.
My gut tells me to go with your 2nd option, as it is very easy to accomplish and takes less work (it is my nature to be lazy). However, my head tells me the 1st option you present might add a dynamic to this I hadn't even considered.
Assuming a character's will saving throw is their "defense" (possibly in the form of 10 + modified will save + character level or simply being allowed to just make the save), I believe you are suggesting a psychic attack roll and psychic defense score, or am I mistaken? I want to make sure I'm on the same page.
My gut tells me to go with your 2nd option, as it is very easy to accomplish and takes less work (it is my nature to be lazy). However, my head tells me the 1st option you present might add a dynamic to this I hadn't even considered.
I am fond of the 1st model thanks to my early reading of Witchworld where telepathy, while apparently related to magic is something separate - it also shaped my stance toward psi in fantasy settings (I am quite ok with them unlike the crowd that cries "begone foul sf") and my stance toward psi and magic (those are forces that might interconnect at some points but are generally separate).
Assuming a character's will saving throw is their "defense" (possibly in the form of 10 + modified will save + character level or simply being allowed to just make the save), I believe you are suggesting a psychic attack roll and psychic defense score, or am I mistaken? I want to make sure I'm on the same page.
Something like that.
One of the possible implementations: everyone has basic psychic bonus (e.g. equal to half their character level or maybe to their full character level). At the beginning of their turn a psychic character determine how much of that psychic bonus is applied to psychic attack/skill roll and how much is applied to psychic defense. This can be changed at the beginning of any of the following turns (non-psychic characters automatically apply all of it to psychic defense). I think there could be a catch that psychic character can't shift the points around if some effect is preventing him from taking actions (daze, stun, unconsciousness but not paralysis) - there could be special psychic talents that allow overcoming that limitation.
Each character has psychic attack/skill bonus that is equal to Charisma bonus plus base psychic bonus dedicated this turn to attack plus any other bonuses. For example telepath specializing in probing minds could pick ability that grants bonus to probing.
Each character has psychic defense score that sets the DC of using psychic abilities on him and would be equal to 10+Wisdom bonus+psychic base bonus dedicated to defense plus any other bonuses. Again, abilities and feats could add to general psychic defense or psychic defense against specific abilities.
The problem I see with this model is that it uses separate psychic defense from Will save which creates unnecessary redundancy. Maybe if any bonuses to Will save would apply to defense as well it could be feasible?
On the other hand it could be made simple and each psychic character would have psychic attack/skill bonus equal equal to their Charisma modifier, plus base psychic bonus (1/2 non-psionic level, 3/4 semi-psionic level or 1 per psionic level)* plus other psionic attack bonuses. It would be rolled against Psychic Defense equal to 10 plus the target's Will bonus plus any psionic defense specific bonuses. No spliting of psychic bonus between.
*or maybe base psychic attack bonus should be 1/3 for non-psionic, 1/2 for semi-psionic and 3/4 for psionic? If the Psychic Defense would be based on Will bonus then it would be competing against the highest base will save of 2+1/2 level - with base attack of 1 per level it would quickly outpace psychic defense.
From all the way back to First Edition AD&D, I never really liked how they worked out psionics. I never understood why psionics needed to have a completely different ruleset, when it could work just like magic. Why reinvent the wheel?
If I needed to introduce psionics in my game, I'd want it to work exactly like magic. I would build a new base class that was very much like a spontaneous arcane caster. In other words, my psionicist base class would look and feel very much like a sorcerer. They would need to pick a psychic specialization, which would work much like a sorcerer's bloodline.
I'd put together a custom spell list comprised mainly of existing spells that have the right feel. I'd probably group psychic spells by school (e.g. "Telekinesis", "ESP", "Telepathy" "Psychometabolics"). A psionicist would be able to use one bonus spell per day per spell level from his or her specialization.
Much like sorcerers, psionicists would not need to use any material components. (i.e. they would have the "Eschew Materials" feat at first level.) For spells with expensive components, I'd probably work something out that requires the psionicist to use some kind of personal energy to make the effect happen, rather than using money. Maybe something like... i don't know... 1d4 temporary hit points per 100 gp of the material cost. Or temproary Strength damage, or something like that. That just seems to fit the literature of psi: sometimes using psi is physically taxing.
Other than that, psionicists would work pretty much exactly like other spontaneous arcane casters.
If I had a need to include a psionicist immediately, I'd just re-skin a standard sorcerer and choose appropriate spells.
From all the way back to First Edition AD&D, I never really liked how they worked out psionics. I never understood why psionics needed to have a completely different ruleset, when it could work just like magic. Why reinvent the wheel?
Because the (A)D&D magic mechanics is far off of the feel and flavor of psychic powers.
I want to start off by apologizing for not fulfilling my commitment of posting the doc last night - it was a long day (I have a very active 2 year old daughter) and I was at the gym far longer than I anticipated (had to wait on a lot of the weights/machines - was very crowded).
I am fond of the 1st model thanks to my early reading of Witchworld where telepathy, while apparently related to magic is something separate - it also shaped my stance toward psi in fantasy settings (I am quite ok with them unlike the crowd that cries "begone foul sf") and my stance toward psi and magic (those are forces that might interconnect at some points but are generally separate).
We're in agreement here. I've always loved psionics. Once Dark Sun was released in 2e, it was pretty much all I ran until 3.5 was released. I may have to pick up the "Witchworld" series.
On the other hand it could be made simple and each psychic character would have psychic attack/skill bonus equal equal to their Charisma modifier, plus base psychic bonus (1/2 non-psionic level, 3/4 semi-psionic level or 1 per psionic level)* plus other psionic attack bonuses. It would be rolled against Psychic Defense equal to 10 plus the target's Will bonus plus any psionic defense specific bonuses. No spliting of psychic bonus between.
*or maybe base psychic attack bonus should be 1/3 for non-psionic, 1/2 for semi-psionic and 3/4 for psionic? If the Psychic Defense would be based on Will bonus then it would be competing against the highest base will save of 2+1/2 level - with base attack of 1 per level it would quickly outpace psychic defense.
I think we can start simple and mix it up a bit once the system is a bit more solid. I added in the google doc with the notes thusfar this morning and I think the math for the psychic attack bonus will now work at a fairly even pace with the Will save. In essence, the psychic attack roll in it's entirety will set the DC for the Will save. The document is here Psionics Document.
From all the way back to First Edition AD&D [...]
Truth be told, it is actually a shame Pathfinder didn't take some ideas from the 3.5 system of Psionics. A conversion to spell points and the ability to augment your spells on the fly is a great system for magic.
I'm with Drejk on this one. The 3.5 psioncs are just reskinned casters with a spell point system in place. It really doesn't have the flavor or feel of psychic powers.
YMMV. I've always been a fan of Vancian magic, and have never liked spell-point systems at all. Which is why I have never been a fan of the official 3.5 Psionics system-- it felt tacked-on, and didn't flow with the rest of the game. Again, there was a perfectly workable existing system of magic (spontaneous casting) that could have easily been re-skinned as psionics.
But, I'm not here to argue right or wrong-- I was legitimately brainstorming a different way to put psionics into a game with a minimum of rules redesign.
Sounds like this line of discussion isn't welcome here, so I'm bowing out.
Good luck!
YMMV. I've always been a fan of Vancian magic, and have never liked spell-point systems at all. Which is why I have never been a fan of the official 3.5 Psionics system-- it felt tacked-on, and didn't flow with the rest of the game. Again, there was a perfectly workable existing system of magic (spontaneous casting) that could have easily been re-skinned as psionics.
It is a love-hate thing for me. I've always liked the House Rule (from memory, not the complete wording) for Wizards, as follows, which gives Vanacian a little more versatility:
Casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day. They need not prepare multiple copies of the same spell; they can cast any combination of their prepared spells each day (of the same level).
In essence, if you have 4 spells of 1st level and memorize magic missile and shield, you could cast 4 magic missiles or 4 shield spells (any any combination there of) as a wizard.
Using a separate system sets clear lines between magic and psionics, it gives each a unique feel, flavor, and ultimately identity.
But, I'm not here to argue right or wrong-- I was legitimately brainstorming a different way to put psionics into a game with a minimum of rules redesign.
Sounds like this line of discussion isn't welcome here, so I'm bowing out.
Good luck!
Your perspective was and is, very welcome here or in any thread I start. You were attempting to be constructive and provide a legitimate means by which to include a form of psionics with a light investment. I both respect and appreciate that.
I think the real difference here is that your method is very practical and would save a lot of headaches in hammering out any potential issues, as it uses a pre-existing tried & true mechanic for implementation, where as the method of rules redesign is inconvenient and time-consuming (but I hope will be rewarding).
Add to that, I think both Drejk and I like coming up with new rules/systems.
By all means, if you notice something we're doing that is ultimately flawed or otherwise poor design, please point it out. I'd really like to see where this road goes and if, in the end, it is practical, provides a unique feel and flavor, or at the very least inspires someone to come up with something better.
I added a basic "power template" to the document (Psionics), as well as a few potential feats in the rough draft phase.
One thing, as a nod to 2e psionics, I'm considering is a passive bonus on certain powers which were considered attack and defense modes in that system. In essence, if the psion has learned these powers, he gains a passive bonus equal to the number of attack and defense modes he knows against and with other powers of that Discipline.
A couple brief examples are:
Psion A knows the defense mode Mind Blank, Thought Shield. He knows the attack modes of Ego Whip, Psychic Crush, and Psionic Blast. He would receive +2 to his saves against mind affecting psionic powers and and +3 bonus to his attack with mind-affecting psionic powers.
Psion B knows all 5 defense modes, but only one attack mode. He would receive a +5 on is saves against mind-affecting, while only receiving a +1 on his attack.
Thoughts?
YMMV. I've always been a fan of Vancian magic, and have never liked spell-point systems at all. Which is why I have never been a fan of the official 3.5 Psionics system-- it felt tacked-on, and didn't flow with the rest of the game.
I like Vancian magic too and I didn't like 3.0/3.5 Psionics as well, but for different reasons - not because of use points-based system but because it used poorly re-skinned spells.
Again, there was a perfectly workable existing system of magic (spontaneous casting) that could have easily been re-skinned as psionics.
I am not sure about Da'ath but for me re-skinning D&D magic as psionics fails to be 'perfect' solution for psionics. At best it is medicore at capturing the flavor and feel of psionics.
Personally I'd get rid of manifestations. Instead I'd go with B5-like circumstances where non-psionics are unaware of psychic activity unless directly affected by non-subtle powers, psionics would be aware of psychic activity used on them, and psionics who picked sensory abilities would be capable of detecting nearby psychic activity not directed at them.
I am not sure about Da'ath but for me re-skinning D&D magic as psionics fails to be 'perfect' solution for psionics. At best it is medicore at capturing the flavor and feel of psionics.
I'm too much of a fanboy of psi abilities for a reskin to work for me.=)
Personally I'd get rid of manifestations. Instead I'd go with B5-like circumstances where non-psionics are unaware of psychic activity unless directly affected by non-subtle powers, psionics would be aware of psychic activity used on them, and psionics who picked sensory abilities would be capable of detecting nearby psychic activity not directed at them.
I can definitely dig that. I removed the visual/auditory/olfactory entries (which pretty much just helped make psionics more spell-like) added in a "subtle" descriptor for powers, which will (hopefully) prevent any arguments at the gaming table with the pre-defined powers and detection.
Also, relink of the original document, as well as a first run attempt at a power. I picked up the Babylon 5 d20 RPG last night on the way back from the gym for some inspiration. There are some aspects of the "brainstorming" done thusfar which are very similar to the system they present, and some of our ideas and mechanics are very different, as well.
o Psionic Notes & Basic Rules So Far
o Psionic Powers
I added in a set of basic psychic combat rules and am going to start working on putting things into a more logical arrangement. As far as powers, feats, and class go, I'm really not happy with the "templates" I'm using.
The basic premise for psychic combat can be found here: Psychic Combat.
With this as a base, I'll be revising some of the other material I'm not happy with, keeping in mind the overall paradigm.
I ended up doing a bit more brainstorming over the course of the day and have two separate systems for handling "psychic combat". The original system which is fairly simple and a new one which is a little more complex. Both systems are available for review:
Psychic Combat
o Original - Fairly Simple.
o New System - A Little More Complex.
I'm curious as to which one folks prefer/think is better. There are still a few kinks to work out of the newer system, but I do think I like it better overall, as it captures a little of the old 2e system, but there is definitely something to be said for simplicity.