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So, then, the level 4s and 3s are going to want to push the level 1 to play up. However, if the team plays up, the level 1 is going to be facing increased risk with no...
The level 1 can play a level 4 pregen AND apply the chronicle to his level 1 at 500gp.
I know he doesnt get to play HIS character, but he has a choice. Play in-tier with another character or his character with greater risk.
MAYBE a potential solution is if you HAVE to use a pregen to play up or down, then when you apply the chronicle to your character it applies at that character's appropriate subtier instead of the pregen's level?
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So can GMs opt to take either 1 or 2 XPs with their GM credit?There is also confusion about reach weapons, cover rules, lighting conditions, AoO`s and a lot of other stuff.
I think the system as i presented it would also take care of peer pressure because you are either simply not allowed to play up or down, or if in the supposed minority case, you won´t be playing up or down long since either you or the others will catch up very quickly.
Yes you loose the possibility to play more scenarios or longer on a certain level, but if you want this you can search another in-tier group. The suggested solution only takes account when there is no other group.
That also makes a slow track advancement mostly unneccesary. It could be used if you need to play up for one evening only.Also i did not intend for this to work under the normal slow/normal track advancement, but to be an exception.
It could just be implemented on the chronicle sheets, what would make applying it for GM´s really easy too.
I would imagine that GMs would be required to 'play down', as they are now.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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At the local game that I run, we do have only one table. The PCs do range in level, because not everyone started at the same time. It's the same players every week, so if we made people play pregens instead of playing up, that's all they would ever be able to play, because they'll never catch up. I got the older players to start new characters, but then the new guy gets his PC up to level 2 or 3, then invites a friend to start at level 1, and the whole thing is about to happen all over again.At my not-so-local game where I play, just about every game day we have an entire table worth of people showing up without having registered, so things get shuffled around, and people play in...
You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.
To be fair, slow track has its own share of problems. Raise dead and restoration not costing 1/2 the amount for people in slow track is probably the main one. But topic for different thread I'd think.
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So, then, the level 4s and 3s are going to want to push the level 1 to play up. However, if the team plays up, the level 1 is going to be facing increased risk with no...The level 1 can play a level 4 pregen AND apply the chronicle to his level 1 at 500gp.
I know he doesnt get to play HIS character, but he has a choice. Play in-tier with another character or his character with greater risk.
MAYBE a potential solution is if you HAVE to use a pregen to play up or down, then when you apply the chronicle to your character it applies at that character's appropriate subtier instead of the pregen's level?
Ok, so what if Player 2 were the only one with a high tier character? Should he burn the scenario with the special faction mission just to make a legal table? That's a lot to ask a player, especially if we're only going to have 3-4 scenarios each season for each faction.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.To be fair, slow track has its own share of problems. Raise dead and restoration not costing 1/2 the amount for people in slow track is probably the main one. But topic for different thread I'd think.
But, we are only talking about a few games to get new players caught up. And, at levels 1-3 that we are talking about, they can't afford a raise dead or restoration anyway.
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.
At the local game that I run, we do have only one table. The PCs do range in level, because not everyone started at the same time. It's the same players every week, so if we made people play pregens instead of playing up, that's all they would ever be able to play, because they'll never catch up. I got the older players to start new characters, but then the new guy gets his PC up to level 2 or 3, then invites a friend to start at level 1, and the whole thing is about to happen all over again.At my not-so-local game where I play, just about every game day we have an entire table worth of people showing up without having registered, so things get shuffled around, and people play in...
Even if our veteran players went on slow track, I doubt seriously that our newer players would ever catch up. We are consistently growing at my local store, even without a con. We had an influx of people in October when we did a con, and in 2013, we've picked up about 5-7 players. When I started playing at my local lodge, we had trouble scheduling two tables and would sometimes just do one. Now, we are up to 3, and might be able to do 4 on a good night.
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Ok, so what if Player 2 were the only one with a high tier character? Should he burn the scenario with the special faction mission just to make a legal table? That's a lot to ask a player, especially if we're only going to have 3-4 scenarios each season for each faction.
If the chronicle sheet applies to the character of the correct faction, then they would get the boon as well, since technically the character who got the chronicle assigned to it played it. And/or make the pregen be the exact same faction of the character getting the credit.
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.Even if our veteran players went on slow track, I doubt seriously that our newer players would ever catch up. We are consistently growing at my local store, even without a con. We had an influx of people in October when we did a con, and in 2013, we've picked up about 5-7 players. When I started playing at my local lodge, we had trouble scheduling two tables and would sometimes just do one. Now, we are up to 3, and might be able to do 4 on a good night.
Actually, a better solution in my book is to have the veteran players start new characters to play with the new guys until they catch up.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Even if our veteran players went on slow track, I doubt seriously that our newer players would ever catch up. We are consistently growing at my local store, even without a con. We had an influx of people in October when we did a con, and in 2013, we've picked up about 5-7 players. When I started playing at my local lodge, we had trouble scheduling two tables and would sometimes just do one. Now, we are up to 3, and might be able to do 4 on a good night.
So, if you are having an influx of people, and have 3-4 tables a night, there should be enough players that you don't have to worry about players having to play up or down unless it is a very rare situation, if the coordinator is doing a good job scheduling.
If your game day is planned around the two new scenarios released each month, you scheduled a table of each subtier for both scenarios. That gives you four tables, with four different subtiers.
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Ok, so what if Player 2 were the only one with a high tier character? Should he burn the scenario with the special faction mission just to make a legal table? That's a lot to ask a player, especially if we're only going to have 3-4 scenarios each season for each faction.If the chronicle sheet applies to the character of the correct faction, then they would get the boon as well, since technically the character who got the chronicle assigned to it played it. And/or make the pregen be the exact same faction of the character getting the credit.
I'm not talking about boons, I'm talking about roleplaying. The new faction missions, according to the podcast, will include difficult choices and require good in-character decisions. Pregen Kyra working for Cheliax for some reason isn't going to cut it as well as the Cleric of Asmodeus or Abadar that has a storyline built around Cheliax.
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Even if our veteran players went on slow track, I doubt seriously that our newer players would ever catch up. We are consistently growing at my local store, even without a con. We had an influx of people in October when we did a con, and in 2013, we've picked up about 5-7 players. When I started playing at my local lodge, we had trouble scheduling two tables and would sometimes just do one. Now, we are up to 3, and might be able to do 4 on a good night.So, if you are having an influx of people, and have 3-4 tables a night, there should be enough players that you don't have to worry about players having to play up or down unless it is a very rare situation, if the coordinator is doing a good job scheduling.
If your game day is planned around the two new scenarios released each month, you scheduled a table of each subtier for both scenarios. That gives you four tables, with four different subtiers.
...which brings us back to my point in the thread I made about a month ago. I'm sure we'd all love to schedule all the latest scenarios, but we simply can't without more 1-5s. Unless there is a 1-5 released every month, we can't reliably get them on the schedule to the point where every eligible player can play. This is getting better, but it still makes things a bit awkward. It becomes even more of a problem when you start scheduling older scenarios that half of the lodge has played and half haven't.
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I don´t think GM´s should be able to use the proposed system.
The only situation i can think of where this might make some sense is if a new GM comes to a group of higher level players where they shift gming. And then there could be still other solutions.
Of course using slow track could also already be used for that, but since slow track seems to be more gritty because of how PP and stuff work less people seem to like it and some might feel punished too.
And there also still would be the case where i have a group of level 7 chars and a newbie joining in. But that is a completely different topic probably.
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People shouldn't *be* playing up or down in an ideal world, of course. It's hard enough for authours and developers to balance scenarios for the various extra options and min-maxers and no-healer-parties and ...
The solution is to play in tier, but to build characters that are more in-game realistic Pathfinders and less one-shot wonders. Then playing in tier wouldn't be a cakewalk as some claim. We all know an Int 7 Cha 5 barbarian with no skills but murder would not have made it through Pathfinder basic training, yet I see one at almost every table. People complain that they don't have the skills to do all of their faction missions - well, why not? If you're not qualified for your job as a Pathfinder, why does the Venture-Captain even let you go on the mission?
My suggestion for the long-term enjoyment of the system: build a character that is based on the background of the campaign. Maybe you multi-class, because you need to be able to cast detect magic and a few other spells since you might not have an arcanist for a particular mission. Maybe your items are a bunch of smaller ones for every situation, rather than putting all your resources into the +3 flaming icy burst shocking ginsu of destruction. Maybe you choose several types of combat styles to be pretty good at instead of one to excel at, since you may find yourself in a spot where your main trick doesn't work (even if it doesn't happen in the scenarios you've played so far).
In my experience, these types of characters are well-balanced for the subtiers as presented in the scenarios, and are often tested to the limits in the newer Season 4 scenarios. This results in the best stories, things that people remember as part of their character's history, the time we barely escaped with our lives from the sewers under Korvosa, through ingenuity and a bit of luck...
Try it. It really fixes a lot of the "problems" that people find by playing up for challenge or for reward.
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And we are looking at what we can do about more 1-5 scenarios. But, if you only, are playing new season scenarios, you have already have five, 1-5 scenarios. If you schedule one module or one previous season scenario, that gets enough xps to get to level 3, where you then have more options to play the 3-7. I'm not sure why people are stuck in a perpetual 1-5 rut, and not advancing to the 3-7 and 5-9 scenarios where it seems alot of these scheduling problems are happening. But, that is another discussion better for its own thread.
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.
I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
And you can always ask the new guy to play up but you can't make them do that either.
And then we come full circle and I will quote Jiggy's post from last page.
"Unless I'm missing something, every single situation used as a case against the "Podcast System" can be solved by one or two people just deciding to NOT be the most important person for one day."
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Re 1-5 scenarios, locally I suspect it's because we a steady trickle of new players, so at least some people who have been around longer are playing alts so tables can make and they don't have to play down/force people to play up (and it happens anyway, as the some people are on their 2nd-3rd alts in the 1-5 range and have reached levels 4-5). As a result, I know a few people who have almost reached the end of playable 1-5 scenarios. We have just enough people in the 7+ range that on at least one weekly game day, we've got a couple of people left over who can't make a table at their main subtier, so they end up playing their lower level alts regularly. (Edit: I will add that this is at least partly a physical table issue, as we've grown enough that we've filled almost all available space).
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You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Re 1-5 scenarios, locally I suspect it's because we a steady trickle of new players, so at least some people who have been around longer are playing alts so tables can make and they don't have to play down/force people to play up (and it happens anyway, as the some people are on their 2nd-3rd alts in the 1-5 range and have reached levels 4-5). As a result, I know a few people who have almost reached the end of playable 1-5 scenarios. We have just enough people in the 7+ range that on at least one weekly game day, we've got a couple of people left over who can't make a table at their main subtier, so they end up playing their lower level alts regularly.
If you have that many people trickling in, then the last 4-6 that have trickled in should be at or near the same levels so they can play together, allowing your vets who have sacrificed their time to be able to play together with other vets and go back to their original characters they stopped playing to help the trickle of new players. And once those vets get to 7+, your community would be working together so the same players aren't having to consistently play alts to help out new players. Everyone pitches in to help the new players trickling in.
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And then we come full circle and I will quote Jiggy's post from last page.
"Unless I'm missing something, every single situation used as a case against the "Podcast System" can be solved by one or two people just deciding to NOT be the most important person for one day."
He's right, that would solve all our problems. But that's not something the campaign staff or an event coordinator can enforce, so it shouldn't be an assumption that we base campaign rules on.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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He's right, that would solve all our problems. But that's not something the campaign staff or an event coordinator can enforce.And then we come full circle and I will quote Jiggy's post from last page.
"Unless I'm missing something, every single situation used as a case against the "Podcast System" can be solved by one or two people just deciding to NOT be the most important person for one day."
If you energize your local player base with that attitude, you don't have to enforce it.
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Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?
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At the Asheville Pathfinder Lodge, we do have event sign up via Warhorn, we do post the scenarios/modules that will be run in advance, we run 6-10 tables on any given APL Saturday ... and we have folks who walk up for the games. Unless you are playing private games, you are going to have that wildcard thrown into the mix quite often.
As it stands right now, we do have folks who will hop out of a mid/high tier table to help make up a low level table, even if they end up having to play down for the new table. With the current system, they can make up for any loss of wealth by playing up at a later date. I can see some of these folks not being quite as willing to fill that gap, at least not as regularly, with the proposed system.
Personally, I am not a fan of the pregens. Yeah they are the iconics, but they are not a product of the player's creation, there is no investment to who the PC is, why they are there, why they do what they do, etc. And if a player is repeatedly faced with the possibility of playing a pregen, playing up with no benefit (or playing down with no chance of closing the resulting WBL gap) or not playing, I can see folks becoming disillusioned with PFS Organized Play.
The one question I would raise is why should the system that is put in place penalize anyone? Ideally, you want to push towards greater game balance and the currently proposed solution does not do that (and obviously neither does the current set up as evidenced by the wealth disparity issue at higher levels); it simply makes the inverse of the current problem the new problem.
With the double XP/PP/FP suggestion you at least have more balance (it is not fully balanced, but it is closer than the other two options. In truth, a player who plays down will still not "catch up" to WBL except in the sense they will reduce their level of consumables use (their GP level will still be on track with others of their level).
"With great risk comes great reward" holds true in the APs and modules ... if folks decided to play a PC that was lower level than recommended for the adventure, the payout for defeating the more difficult critters is not reduced. Why would this be the case for PFS. Additionally, since the level advancement in PFS is linear instead of exponential (well, not truly exponential, but you get the idea), having a double of XP fits the model of the core game as well (you will level up faster in a home game if you take on more difficult critters. Doubling the FP/PP fits with the greater risk ... if you fail in one aspect, you have doubled your loss. If you succeed, you gain additional points, but they would not put you in excess of anyone else at your XP level.
As to the second primary concern, the proposed solution also does nothing as far as the player coercion issue goes either, it simply makes that coercion occur in the other way. Instead of folks being pressured to play up, they will be pressured to play down and "take one for the team". In truth, there is not in game mechanic that will cause this issue to go away. It is up to the GMs to enforce the "do not be a jerk" rule, which certainly includes coercion to play up or down. They can do so by giving players warnings that they are violating the "DnBaJ" rule, they can override the decision to play up (informing the players of such due to the coercion) or they could expel players from the table if they cross the line (a last resort to be sure). The GMs are the ones who need to be enforcing the stance against coercion with full support from Mike, Mark and John. Outlining what steps a GM can take when they witness coercion would be the best way to handle this aspect rather than create new problems for PC wealth. But, this, like all else, is just my 2CP.
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Well, regardless of whether or not players will walk, do we really want to put them in a tough situation like that? Do we really want to foster those sorts of difficult discussions among players? I was under the impression that this rule was designed to move us away from that discussion/
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So can GMs opt to take either 1 or 2 XPs with their GM credit?There is also confusion about reach weapons, cover rules, lighting conditions, AoO`s and a lot of other stuff.
I think the system as i presented it would also take care of peer pressure because you are either simply not allowed to play up or down, or if in the supposed minority case, you won´t be playing up or down long since either you or the others will catch up very quickly.
Yes you loose the possibility to play more scenarios or longer on a certain level, but if you want this you can search another in-tier group. The suggested solution only takes account when there is no other group.
That also makes a slow track advancement mostly unneccesary. It could be used if you need to play up for one evening only.Also i did not intend for this to work under the normal slow/normal track advancement, but to be an exception.
It could just be implemented on the chronicle sheets, what would make applying it for GM´s really easy too.
No, why would they? The rules currently require GMs to either apply their credit to an in-tier character or assign the lower-tier. I see no reason to change this regarding GMs.
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If it was not for some players who often go out of there way to seat at tables in such a fashion that allowed them to constantly play up, this change and discussion would not even be necessary. This is not meant as a bash. I do not fault player's for seeking the greatest advantage they can within the boundaries of the rules. But because this is happening, it means the rules need to change.
I still think a hard WBL cap is a fantastic idea that will solve all concerns.
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You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.
It's the same players, but they did not all start PFS at the same time (RDN also plays at the APL).
Hell, my first PFS PC was created in 2009 for PaizoCon and I was not able to play her outside of Cons until the end of 2011 when we set up the APL (at which point I think she was 3rd level). It is not an uncommon scenario to have a small group with divergent leveled PCs.
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What if we gave people playing up 2XP, then split the difference in the gold as I suggested earlier? So if low tier is 500, high tier is 1000, people who play up will get 2XP and 750gp. This discourages them from playing up.
Really, though, why is it a problem if some people get 2XP and WBL-appropriate gold while others get 1XP and WBL-appropriate gold? I wouldn't want to play up because I like playing my characters, but I don't want to play slow because frankly I have a lot of character ideas and I like variety. Others might be more committed to variety; they could cycle through characters faster. No skin off mine, y'know?
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You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?
Because they didn't all start at the same time. For the first game day, I had 6 core players start coming. When they got to level 3, one guy dropped out and a couple of new guys joined the group. Then when the original players got to level 5, some of them had to take a months-long break, and another new guy wanted to join in. We all started new characters with First Steps, but that guy never came back after the first part. Then after a couple more sessions, another new guy found out about the game and joined in, a level behind the other new characters. Now that he's in the middle of level 2, he invited one of his friends, and so on...
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.It's the same players, but they did not all start PFS at the same time (RDN also plays at the APL).
Hell, my first PFS PC was created in 2009 for PaizoCon and I was not able to play her outside of Cons until the end of 2011 when we set up the APL (at which point I think she was 3rd level). It is not an uncommon scenario to have a small group with divergent leveled PCs.
Then you schedule a night specifically for 1-5. You schedule the next game day specifically for 3-7. And you continue. This gives everyone a heads up of what is scheduled, when it is scheduled, and they plan accordingly. If someone can't play in one game session out of four, that is not necessarily a bad thing. This allows everyone at the game day to play a character they created, and to even plan balanced parties and the like.
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If it was not for some players who often go out of there way to seat at tables in such a fashion that allowed them to constantly play up, this change and discussion would not even be necessary.
Exactly. If we want to say "These problems would be solved if people were just less self-centered," let's apply that to the handful of people gaming the current system.
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What if we gave people playing up 2XP, then split the difference in the gold as I suggested earlier? So if low tier is 500, high tier is 1000, people who play up will get 2XP and 750gp. This discourages them from playing up.
Really, though, why is it a problem if some people get 2XP and WBL-appropriate gold while others get 1XP and WBL-appropriate gold? I wouldn't want to play up because I like playing my characters, but I don't want to play slow because frankly I have a lot of character ideas and I like variety. Others might be more committed to variety; they could cycle through characters faster. No skin off mine, y'know?
This one is too complicated, sorry.
I'm still all for the double experience option. I also don't think offering the higher levels the slow track as an option is viable, because slow track is not really worth it. People want to be nice, but not when they can feel their character getting significantly weaker for it.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?Because they didn't all start at the same time. For the first game day, I had 6 core players start coming. When they got to level 3, one guy dropped out and a couple of new guys joined the group. Then when the original players got to level 5, some of them had to take a months-long break, and another new guy wanted to join in. We all started new characters with First Steps, but that guy never came back after the first part. Then after a couple more sessions, another new guy found out about the game and joined in, a level behind the other new characters. Now that he's in the middle of level 2, he invited one of his friends, and so on...
So, if the ones who took a months long break come back, they should theoretically be at the same level of the new guys who just started and continued to play. And if heis in the middle of level 2, and he wants to play with his friend, you encourage him to play slow track when he hits level 3. You advise him it is only for one level, it will allow his friend to catch up to him, and they can play characters very close in level range with no problem. Since it sounds like he wants to play at the table with his friend, I'm not sure why he would have a problem slow playing for one level. Did you ask?
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Micheal, don´t you guys have some system to statistically evaluate reported games for things like that? I mean you said it´s important to report games so you know what people are playing and how the campaign develops. If you don´t why not also evaluate HOW people are playing?
I think it could be really interesting for you how groups and tables are composited, what levels which scenarios play, which classes with which archetypes, which stuff is bought and how many of which expendables etc.
This could help develop the campaign a lot and also help game developers and scenario writers.
P.S.: I was really looking forward to Dungeoneers Handbook, but i have to say i´m a little disapointed there. I expected more PFS value out of that, especially regarding the archetypes too. The ranger and the monk should have really gotten trap finding, that would have made them shining archetypes.
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Additionally, in a perfect world, you play up if no other chance to play. We currently have people who play up every game of their character's career. I don't think instituting double of XP and gold is going to convince them to only play up if no other chance to play.
In a perfect world, there would be multiple tables running at range of tiers. In my local area, there is typically only a single table running with characters at a range of levels.
I ran a game with a level 2 and a level 7 at the 3-4 sub-tier. Neither player had another character with them. Neither player wished to play a pregen.
It is not an ideal situation, but in areas with only a single table, it does happen. If you start punishing players at either extreme, few playes will be willing to participate.
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Then you schedule a night specifically for 1-5. You schedule the next game day specifically for 3-7. And you continue. This gives everyone a heads up of what is scheduled, when it is scheduled, and they plan accordingly. If someone can't play in one game session out of four, that is not necessarily a bad thing. This allows everyone at the game day to play a character they created, and to even plan balanced parties and the like.
Mike, I feel like the solution you're giving could be utilized keeping the WBL options in scenarios exactly the same. I also truly feel that this option will cause more animosity, while powergamers still play up whenever in mid-tier. There is still a vast amount of gold to be achieved by playing at level 3 in a 4-5 three times, playing at level 5 in a 6-7 three times, and playing a level 7 in a 5-9 three times.
The solution proposed on the podcast won't stop that. However, if you give a player 2 xp when they play up from low tier or mid tier, you are eliminating one of those advantageous sessions, while at the same time letting Rainydayninja's new players catch up with the older players. You are reducing the WBL exploitation while allowing catch-up, and all without the very disadvantageous slow track.
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Hello Mike,
I support the idea of increasing experience for playing up to 2 exp, and increasing the prestige for playing up to 3pp, as well as providing the high tier gold. Essentially when a character plays up I think it should count as providing two scenario’s worth of stuff for them. The pro’s of this are as follows:
1) Provides a reward for the added risk/increased expenditure or resources
2) Does not increase characters wealth past expected wealth by level
3) Allows for players who start later or can’t play regularly to keep up/catch up with their friends.
The con’s (which I can see) are:
1) May lead to intentionally playing up as a means of level farming
2) Adds another layer of complexity to the record keeping.
Now with regard to the first negative I don’t really see that as being a big problem. With the modules being available and offering 3exp and 4pp people are already able to level farm. Level farming also has its own disadvantage of retiring the character faster.
With regard to the second negative I do agree it makes the system a little bit more complicated. But I don’t think it makes it very much so. All the GM would have to remember is to award an additional exp and PP to people at their table who played up. I know that this would not be difficult for me to keep track of. Now I don’t know how difficult it would be to implement this online. I don’t think it should be very difficult because we already have to enter PP gained with filling the records online.
There are some interesting things that come up if we follow this rabbit trail. Since we are doubling rewards for playing up it only makes sense to half rewards for playing down, essentially treat them as if they were playing slow track. This leads to many of the same problem that slow track runs into with how to handle PP. Also fractional exp can be a pain the butt to deal with (although easily corrected by playing on slow track briefly).
Another issue is what do GM’s credit for their character. I think the obvious answer is that we do the same thing we have been doing. Apply credit that is appropriate in tier to the character who it is being applied to.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Just to make sure, you're saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing if somebody gets excluded from a game day for their level?
If the game days are announced in advance, and the person has full knowledge he has no character in the level range and would have to play a pre gen to participate, then I'm saying he has the option to play the pregen or find something else he can do for that one game day.
Additionally, if a game day is scheduled, the player shows up thinking one thing is scheduled to run at a particular tier, and it is changed the day of, this allowing him nothing in level of any of his characters. That isn't cool.
So, to sum up, if the coordinator posts all game days scheduled for the next month, and the player doesn't have a character for the level of one of those game days, then it isn't a bad thing they have to skip one day or use a pregen if they refuse to miss a game.
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Then you schedule a night specifically for 1-5. You schedule the next game day specifically for 3-7. And you continue. This gives everyone a heads up of what is scheduled, when it is scheduled, and they plan accordingly. If someone can't play in one game session out of four, that is not necessarily a bad thing. This allows everyone at the game day to play a character they created, and to even plan balanced parties and the like.You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.It's the same players, but they did not all start PFS at the same time (RDN also plays at the APL).
Hell, my first PFS PC was created in 2009 for PaizoCon and I was not able to play her outside of Cons until the end of 2011 when we set up the APL (at which point I think she was 3rd level). It is not an uncommon scenario to have a small group with divergent leveled PCs.
That might work for a single table game, but you would need buy in from all players and whoa be unto you if you have someone decide to join the group with their new 1st level PC when you are playing tier 4-5 in a 1-5 scenario. Or their 9th level PC when you are playing a 3-7 on the 3-4 tier? ;)
Also, what if a player is wanting to level up a PC in time for an event or to play out a specific swan song scenario and the scheduled events do not coincide with the PC that needs leveling?
As to a larger venue where you have walk ups who are not on the schedule and probably did not check to see what was being played, do we turn those players away then? Force them to play a pregen?
The main issue with the suggestion you made is it really does not take walk ups into account. If you are going to grow your local gaming base, you cannot ignore this segment.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Additionally, in a perfect world, you play up if no other chance to play. We currently have people who play up every game of their character's career. I don't think instituting double of XP and gold is going to convince them to only play up if no other chance to play.In a perfect world, there would be multiple tables running at range of tiers. In my local area, there is typically only a single table running with characters at a range of levels.
I ran a game with a level 2 and a level 7 at the 3-4 sub-tier. Neither player had another character with them. Neither player wished to play a pregen.
It is not an ideal situation, but in areas with only a single table, it does happen. If you start punishing players at either extreme, few playes will be willing to participate.
That's an easy fix. If you run into that problem, you don't schedule one of the very few 1-7 scenarios that are available.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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That might work for a single table game, but you would need buy in from all players and whoa be unto you if you have someone decide to join the group with their new 1st level PC when you are playing tier 4-5 in a 1-5 scenario. Or their 9th level PC when you are playing a 3-7 on the 3-4 tier? ;)Also, what if a player is wanting to level up a PC in time for an event or to play out a specific swan song scenario and the scheduled events do not coincide with the PC that needs leveling?
As to a larger venue where you have walk ups who are not on the schedule and probably did not check to see what was being played, do we turn those players away then? Force them to play a pregen?
The main issue with the suggestion you made is it really does not take walk ups into account. If you are going to grow your local gaming base, you cannot ignore this segment.
If you have three walk ups, then you run a table of first Steps, We Be Goblins, whatever. If you have one or two, you explain to them that your current tables are full or not really new player friendly due to level discrepancy. As someone advised above, our playerbase is intelligent and a reasonable person will realize and understand that reasoning for what it is. You invite them back for the next game day and make sure you set aside a table specifically for them, as well as any new walk ups you get.
Trust me. i have experience scheduling local game days that barely managed to scrape one table together, and that was with walk-ins. ive also scheduledmlocal game days that had 9 tables running in three different slots, for a total of 27 tables on a Saturday. In the more than 200 game days I coordinated in Atlanta over 12 months, we did this on at least 10-15 occassions. Only 3-4 times did the new player not come back. D you really think the new player is going to have a positive first experience playing a level 1 character at a table full of level 4-5s?
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...That might work for a single table game,Then you schedule a night specifically for 1-5. You schedule the next game day specifically for 3-7. And you continue. This gives everyone a heads up of what is scheduled, when it is scheduled, and they plan accordingly. If someone can't play in one game session out of four, that is not necessarily a bad thing. This allows everyone at the game day to play a character they created, and to even plan balanced parties and the like.You advised it was the same players every week. Why didnt everyone start a character at the same level at the same time if it is the same players every week?In the meantime, while I'm still trying to grow the community past one table per day and get someone other than me to GM, then yeah.Just so I'm clear your argument is that low level characters need to get high tier gold so that they can contribute when playing up?You say the new players will never catch up. Why aren't your vets playing on slow track? After a few game days, the newer players catch up and are at the same level as the vet players, and every one can then play normal.I can always ask them to, but I can't make them do slow track. If they aren't that selfless, then playing up for increased gold at least lets the new guys buy that +1 armor, pearl of power, etc. a little sooner, and stay a viable member of the team when they have to play up.It's the same players, but they did not all start PFS at the same time (RDN also plays at the APL).
Hell, my first PFS PC was created in 2009 for PaizoCon and I was not able to play her outside of Cons until the end of 2011 when we set up the APL (at which point I think she was 3rd level). It is not an uncommon scenario to have a small group with divergent leveled PCs.
One of my first PFS experiences was playing a 5-9 with a level 7 pregen. I can honestly say that it was one of the best experiences I've had with the campaign. Sure, I didn't know how everybody else's characters worked...but it gave me some perspective in building my characters, and it let me see how experienced players tackle a scenario.