Well, I know DRAGON did it, and there might be an older thread that covers this, but I want to see: who thinks that Raistlin could whack Elminster into Ravenloft and out again?
Elminster would win, unfortunately. I'd probably root for Raistlin despite my FR affiliation, but cheese is cheese no matter what plane you're on.
All I know is that they could both kick the s!*!e out of Drizzt.
Can I vote for Driz'zt instead? I'd love to see him slaughter them both. I'd then have to drop a mountain on the overly-emotive drow, but I could make some serious moolah selling tickets to the massacre.
You mean wit' spells, or in a steel cage death match?
Steel cage matches are for wimps. We're going to go for Hell in a Cell. The cell will be pure Marvel Superheroes adamantium with a dimensional anchor or three attached.
Raistlin is practically a god!!! And who is Elminster? Some old geezer who gets power from a god. A mere mage-cleric. Raistlin would send him into The Demiplane of Dread, out again, back in, and then into Spelljammer.
(Wow, this one got responses fast)
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You mean wit' spells, or in a steel cage death match?Steel cage matches are for wimps. We're going to go for Hell in a Cell. The cell will be pure Marvel Superheroes adamantium with a dimensional anchor or three attached.
One, if they were in hell, Elminster would be cut off from Mystra.We saw that in 'Elminster in Hell'. Two, Drizzt would be slaughtered. That's all there is to it. One arch-mage and an arch-priest vs. some guy with rapier? Drizzt would go from Dungeons and Dragons to Call of Cthullu.
This thread is going so fast, I need to charge a toll.
Maybe Leomund could be defeated by Drizzt, maybe he wouldn't. All I know 'bout Leomund is that he made some handy haversack.
Maybe Mordankainan could be killed by Drizzt...
Let's not forget something about old El.
He's got one b@#&tch of a girlfriend.
Is it bad when the Simbul is angry with you?
Yes, yes it is.
Raistlin might win the fight, but lose the war when a mountain got dropped on him.
Then again, what is 'practically a god'? I don't seem to have stats for that anywhere.
Kirk vs Conan?
I'm in agreement with Cleaver.
Up is down, black is white, cats and dogs; living together!
Maybe Leomund could be defeated by Drizzt, maybe he wouldn't. All I know 'bout Leomund is that he made some handy haversack.
Maybe Mordankainan could be killed by Drizzt...Ugh.....
Captain Kirk would whup all there buts. Kirk teh roXX0rs.
While Heathy and Tobus are distracted, I have a few things.
One: Raistlin has a big tower with creatures that do his biding inside it, a huge really strong brother who does his bidding, and the advantage of not relying on magic items. Also, Elminster has a daughter, last I checked. Probably hundreds. If one got a hold of one daughter/friend/lover, well, he's Lawful Good. He'd surrender. And he's a fool. he probably has tons of friends. Raistlin, however, has very few friends. He's called 'the Sly One', remember? save perhaps Caramon or Crysania, nobody really cares much for him. This means that while he has enemies, he doesn't have to worry about any hostages used against him. He's Neutral or Lawful Evil, remember?Raistlin's got this fight in the bag.
This means that while he has enemies, he doesn't have to worry about any hostages used against him.Even if hostages where used against him. They'd just be collateral damage.
Yep. Elminster is dead bunny meat.
The hostages might end up dead, but El probably can just wink at Mystra and get them resurrected. The old fuddy-duddy has so many undisclosed tricks that he should be working Vegas. Oh, and he's CG, not LG.
As for allies, a tower of monsters would probably just amuse El. Caramon would probably be teleported back to Tika's bed and forget all about the fight. Cryania, well, that's a taller order, but with El, he can probably just start the fight somewhere else.
Still think El would win, curse the man.
The hostages might end up dead, but El probably can just wink at Mystra and get them resurrected. The old fuddy-duddy has so many undisclosed tricks that he should be working Vegas. Oh, and he's CG, not LG.
As for allies, a tower of monsters would probably just amuse El. Caramon would probably be teleported back to Tika's bed and forget all about the fight. Cryania, well, that's a taller order, but with El, he can probably just start the fight somewhere else.
Still think El would win, curse the man.
I still disagree. The tower of monsters would be used to threaten innocents. How would El feel if a village of folk were killed on his account? I doubt that even he would find it that easy to get an entire village restored to life, arch-cleric or no arch-cleric. Raistlin could also find Manshoon and his friends and force them to do his bidding. A previously impossible to defeat villain would only be a pawn to Raist. Caramon and Crysania would be a little easier, but Raistlin has survived worse than some dumb old priest.
Also, Raistlin could likely threaten to send some hostages to hell. As I've said, 'Elminster in Hell' proves that Mystra can't reach there. The hostages would die.All in all, Raistlin is too smart and pitiless to be defeated by some dithering fool like El.
Plus, I imagine Dalamar would some to the aid of his shalafi. He aint anything to sneeze at either.
Yeah, he's even in the Wizard's Three Club. Of course, in the Time of the Twins, his loyalty to the Tower of Sorcery is still great enough that he doesn't side against them. Then again, he had more reason to be loyal to the Tower than to some club mate. Yeah, he'd side with Raist. He is certainly nothing to sneeze at.
Kirk would be considered some kind of powerful wizard to these folk.
Yep, we won't have to worry 'bout Haethy for a while. looks like he's trapped himself in some demiplane of Captain Cork of whatever.
It's called a taunt, Charles, a taunt!!!Kobold Cleaver:
Your persistant statement that Elminster is a dithering fool or words to that effect means that you have been fooled by his facade in the same way that many other people have been tricked down through the years...
...'Elminster in Hell' (and by the way, he only ended up stuck there because he has a special ability 'get sucked into an outer plane at a moment of crisis with no spells or items left by the time that the rift closes' which nobody ever seems to list in his stat block)...
That was because he chose to go there, in order to close the rift thing that had been opened. I assume that it was some sort of plane where good clerics (and similar spellcasters)can't cast their spells, on account that good deities can't reach into hell. Maybe some FR thing, I don't know.
...only proves how PSYCHOTICALLY CUNNING, MANIPULATIVE, and DANGEROUS Elminster is. With minimal assistance, and in the face of all of Nergal's supposed advantages over a 'dithering fool' who has no spells left, and whose memories he is steadily drainging off for himself, Elminster still beats Nergal. (And by the way, Elminster's annoying Silver fire, despite being cut off in Avernus from his goddess and home-world, still works JUST FINE.)...
My point was, Mystra can't help him there, or anybody else. Perhaps El did could escape (of course he did, but to be honest, i never finished that particular book) but could Mystra raise him from there? No.
...And Elminster is much to full of himself to let someone holding a village full of people hostage use that against him. He'd just let them be killed, since he would regard what he was doing as MUCH MORE IMPORTANT- and it wouldn't be him committing the act that drectly led to...
Are you sure? Remember, he is good. Evil guys are all about 'the greater good', but would a good guy really want that on his conscience? And what if Raist's victim was Shandril, or Storm Whats-her-name (I think it's Silverhand)? Would he really be so careless with them? Storm is an important character, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want her dead. And Shandril has Spellfire. He wouldn't want THAT falling into the wrong hands.
Man, that took ages to type.
I thought that Raistlin needed some heavy-duty kender assistance with that one?But wasn't Nergal an Arch-Devil?
Raist had the cojones to move against the Head Goddess of a pantheon by himself. With travel to the future, it was shown to us that he would have succeeded too.
That's power.
Har har. Very funny.
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I thought that Raistlin needed some heavy-duty kender assistance with that one? [Please correct me if I am misinformed on that point.]
It has been over a decade since I last read the Legends Trilogy so let's see if I remember this correctly...
The presence of Tasslehoff in the past allowed Raistlin to overcome the laws of magic which made one unable to change the past. With Tasslehoff he was able to slip out of Fistandantlus' mistakes when he assumed his identity.
As for the actual battle against Tak, Crysania was the only one who entered the portal with him for the battle. She was injured fighting Tak's minions and Raist told her "K thx later".
The actual battle was designed to be 1 on 1.
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I thought Nergal was the god of Hamburglars.But wasn't Nergal an Arch-Devil?
Raist had the cojones to move against the Head Goddess of a pantheon by himself. With travel to the future, it was shown to us that he would have succeeded too.
That's power.
While the Hamburglars do indeed worship him, he has yet granted them any spells.
I think the only fair way to settle this would be to have Olympiad of sorts that included events that play to the strengths of both mages. The events should go something like this:
Channeling power from more powerful beings: Both of them have some experience with this, and they could both kind of sit back and let their "riders" compete while they rested up for the next event.
Cross dressing: Elminster would be the knee jerk favorite in this one, since he spent time as a woman, but Raistlin has skin that accents his clothing much better than Elminster, plus, I have to favor a guy with a full head of hair in a cross dressing competition over one with a beard and a thinning hairline.
Picking up women: Again, Elminster appears to have the advantage, but two things would work for Raistlin. One . . . the crowd would be seeded with lawful good female clerics with bad boy affinities, and two . . . if the females get disintegrated by the Simbul before they make it to the "goal line," the woman doesn't count.
Pass the Cataclysm: A series of several world altering cataclsyms is set up by the WOTC judges, and each mage has to write an essay about why the Cataclysm makes more sense if it hits the other guys world rather than his. The guy whose world blows up the least by the end of this competition is the winner.
Recruiting Voice Talent: Raistlin has the clear edge, with is voice being being officially rendered by Jack Bauer. In fact, to make the competition more interesting, one voice actor could off another voice actor, and whomever has a voice actor closest to the A list by the end of the competition wins (El is kicking himself that Khelben got Patrick Steward before the old Blackstaff joined the choir frolicking).
Shadow Puppet Recognition: Lhaeo and Caramon will stand behind a white sheet with a candle behind them, and make various shadow creatures and whichever mage can identify the most shadow puppets wins the event. Lhaeo's shadow Phaerimm is a killer asset here. Caramon is good with bunnies . . .
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The presence of Tasslehoff in the past allowed Raistlin to overcome the laws of magic which made one unable to change the past. With Tasslehoff he was able to slip out of Fistandantlus' mistakes when he assumed his identity.
I thought Tasselhoff drove around in a cool black car that could talk.
That guy would beat Elmister, Raistlin and Conan without even mussing his hair.
Hell yeah.
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Cross dressing: Elminster would be the knee jerk favorite in this one, since he spent time as a woman, but Raistlin has skin that accents his clothing much better than Elminster, plus, I have to favor a guy with a full head of hair in a cross dressing competition over one with a beard and a thinning hairline.
As long as it is not a bikini contest. If it is? No matter who wins, the rest of us lose.
...If it were *The Simbul* being held hostage, that might cause him pause, but if someone could take The Simbul hostage, then I doubt that Elminster would give them a problem anyway...
Oh, great. It seems to me that we're back where we started: who's more powerful, without any hostages, though Shandril is really a different matter. Spellfire in the wrong hands is dangerous. If Raist caught her (which he could. He's too clever to be defeated by a girl. He'd send in his tower minions, and fight her on his own terms. He is not about to be defeated by a girl, Spellfire or no Spellfire. He's not called The Sly One for nothing)he'd be able to destroy much before El at last surrendered.