Now lets set aside the fact it would be a massive undertaking for a moment.
Assuming it was done well would you like to see the wiz and sorc further separated into separate spell lists with their own flavor.
If you do like this ides how would you do it ?
taking the existing mixed spell list and split it down the middle giving sorcs the more raw power spells and wizard the more controlled intricate spells. And then flesh both out to cover any holes created in the process.
Or
Leave this existing mixed list as is and just come out with a PF magic book that expands spell lists separately for wizards and sorcs. ?
I would have sorcerers work similar to how psions work with a spell point system. They would know less spells, but they would be better at augmenting those spells, and those spells would be more useful over the career of the character.
The wizard's spells would be more limited in scope, but since they can learn a lot more spells theoretically it would balance out.
I would have sorcerers work similar to how psions work with a spell point system. They would know less spells, but they would be better at augmenting those spells, and those spells would be more useful over the career of the character.
The wizard's spells would be more limited in scope, but since they can learn a lot more spells theoretically it would balance out.
I agree with this, I actually came up with some house rules for this and is how I run sorcerers in my games.
She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her mana per day. The sorcerer must be careful on how she expends her mana however. Whenever her remaining mana is less than or equal to her caster level, she becomes fatigued. When the sorcerer has run out of mana entirely, she becomes exhausted. These penalties last until the sorcerer has recovered her mana. Effects the remove or negate fatigue or exhaustion can temporally remove the Charisma penalty for a number of minutes equal to the caster level of the effect, but if the mana of the sorcerer hasn’t risen sufficiently, she suffers again the Charisma penalty and fatigue or exhaustion as appropriate.
Sorcery: Many spells have variable effects that only sorcerers can access and use. As they master the spells they know, they can use more mana to make the spell more powerful, based on the number of additional mana they spend when they cast them. The more mana spent, the more powerful the casting. How this extra expenditure affects a spell is specific to the spell. Some sorceries allow the sorcerer to increase the number of damage dice, while others extend a spell’s duration or modify a spell in unique ways. Each spell that can be enhanced with sorcery includes an entry giving how many mana costs to enhance and the effects of doing so. However, the sorcerer can spend only a total number of mana on a spell equal to her sorcerer caster level.
Adding sorcery to spell takes place as part of another action (casting a spell). Unless otherwise noted in the Sorcery section of an individual spell description, the sorcerer can enhance a spell with sorcery only at the time she casts it.
Table 3-15a: Sorcerer Spells Base Mana Cost
———————— Spells Base Mana Cost —–———————
Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
Mana 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17
Table 3-15b: Bonus Mana
———————— Bonus Mana (by Maximum Spell Level —–———————
Score 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
12-13 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
14-15 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
16-17 1 4 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
18-19 1 4 9 16 16 16 16 16 16
20-21 2 5 10 17 26 26 26 26 26
22-23 2 8 13 20 29 40 40 40 40
24-25 2 8 18 25 34 45 58 58 58
26-27 2 8 18 32 41 52 65 80 80
28-29 3 9 19 33 51 62 75 90 107
30-31 3 12 22 36 54 76 89 104 121
32-33 3 12 24 38 56 78 104 119 136
34-35 3 12 27 48 66 88 114 144 161
36-37 4 13 28 49 76 98 124 154 188
38-39 4 16 31 52 77 110 136 166 200
40-41 4 16 36 57 84 117 156 186 220
42-43 4 16 36 64 91 124 163 208 242
44-45 5 17 37 65 101 134 173 218 269
Monte Cook actually did what you're talking about, in the Complete Book of Eldrich Might. Honestly, it was the only way I would play a sorcerer in third edition.
I don't remember a whole lot of the explanation, but a quick example is invisibility and the attribute buffing spells. A wizard learns invisibility or "animal's attribute" and they will probably memorize it once or twice. Say they come across a situation where they need to use the spell a bunch of times...well, it's not happening. Say they think they're going to come across said situation, so all their second level spells are that spell...and well, if they're wrong, they're hosed. Not so for a sorcerer.
In the reverse, very ritualistic spells, such as some of the higher divination spells were removed from the sorcerer list, as his view of the class was more innate power, and less incense and hour long draconic chanting.
It's something I keep meaning to use in my own campaign, but firstly I need to find a group of players worth gaming with...and then find the time to game...
Example Sorceries:
Acid Arrow
Sorcery: For each additional 1 mana you spend, the duration increases by 1 round. The maximum rounds based on caster level increases by 1 as well.
Acid Fog
Sorcery: For each additional 2 mana you spend, the radius of the area of effect increases by 5 feet.
Acid Splash
Sorcery: You may enhance this spell in one or both of the following ways.
1. For each additional mana you spend, this spell deals an additional 1d3 damage.
2. If you spend 2 additional mana, this spell’s range changes to medium.
Alarm
Sorcery: For each additional mana you spend, the radius of the emanation of this spell increases by 5 feet.
Analyze Dweomer
Sorcery: If you spend an additional 3 mana, this spell’s range changes to medium.
Animate Dead
Sorcery: This spell may be enhanced in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 4 additional mana, undead created with this spell have Strength and Charisma scores 4 higher than normal.
2. If you spend 2 additional mana, the spell’s range changes from touch to close.
3. If you have the undead bloodline, you may spend 6 additional mana to create a skeletal champion instead of skeletons or zombies, you may only create one skeletal champion per casting.
One of my personal favorites:
Fireball
Sorcery: You may enhance this spell in one or more of the following ways.
1. For each additional mana you spend, you can increase the maximum dice by one.
2. For each additional 2 mana you spend, you can increase the radius of the spell by 5 feet.
3. If you spend 3 less mana, the damage changes to 1 per caster level(maximum 10).
4. If you spend 4 additional mana, the fireball bead may make one turn up to 90 degrees on the way to its range.
5. If you spend 4 additional mana, the fireball becomes explosive. Any creatures that fail their save against this spell are ejected to the nearest edge of the effect and knocks the creature prone. Any creature moved in this mana takes an additional 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet moved. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If some obstacle intervenes to prevent the blasted creature from moving to the nearest edge of the effect, the creature stops at the obstacle but takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier (in addition to any damage taken from being forcibly moved to the barrier).
I think the core of this question should be:
What spells are intrinsically only sorcerer based and should these be a sorcerer only spell list?
I don't see a reason to limit the Wizard's spell list - that's their core ability - but the nature of Sorcerers could allow unique spells that cannot be cast except spontaneously.
I don't know if it's worth the work but I can see the logic.
Wizards too could have ritual and contractual spells which are too situational to ever by spontaneous spells. Unfortunately I think the game magic would have to get more detailed for this sort of distinction to work.
Sigurd
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No. (to the thread's question)
Wizards and Sorcerers already have different spell lists. In fact, two wizards generally have different spell lists. The only difference between the two are the mechanics. There's no reason to prune their list or add special sorcerer-only spells, at least, no more than they already have. Some things lend themselves to book learning, others more than innate magical power. But their lists are determined by what they learn, not the source list. They'll always have different lists, especially now that bloodlines determine the sorcerer's flavor.
Does anyone have a copy of the Dragon Magazine that featured 'Spell Paths'?
That's what I'd like to see - either applied to Wizards regarding research (i.e spell access from leveling is constrained within a focused 'path' of development to reflect the nature of research and how one discovery leads to another) or Sorcerers (to reflect an 'organic' development of spells/powers drawn from their ancestory.)
Either/or...
Capsule: Have one class's spell list constrained (x leads to y leads to z) while the other is flexibile (caster may choose x, y, z).
....Briefly summary of Spell Paths from sketchy memories:
Spells were gained from researching/learning 'paths'. Each path followed a themed progression. For example, the path of Mists and Shadows* would start with Unsessn Servant, Obscuring Mists, Disguise Self, Cause Fear (essentially spells that fitted with the path's chosen theme) and would then lead into higher-level spells that also fitted the theme.
Paths could cross/lead into other paths and certain spells could only be learned from following a path into another path (say, Illusion/fear spells into Necromancy spells that dealt with summons which would cross into Shadow Evocation etc ).
I can't recall the details and I don't beleive there was any inherent in-game benefit from structuring the spell progression in this way but...
...it made 'sense' - at the moment Jim the Wizard can learn this spell, that spell, any spell as they level and choose from an even wider list once they access other spellbooks/scrolls.
..
Now, I was thinking this kind of structure would benefit sorcerers -- each developes their powers from a spell list (path) that ties in within their initial theme..
...but you could also play it where Sorcerers have the advantage of a wide, open spell list (the standard spell list) while wizards have to research/learn spells along a theme/within a structured system, i.e spell paths.
A tenious real-world example would be: Jim the Scientist(Wizard), Master Biologist(Conjuration Specialist), discovers a research paper(scroll) on Advanced Polymers(Transumation)..
...and, while he can identify the nature of the paper and grasp the general principles addressed, the research is so far removed from his field of learning that it's useless to him/beyond his abilites to incorperate the infomation into his existing skill set.
Um...
[i]...ok, this is sketchy but I think(hope) you get where I'm coming from..
*Name/path idea pulled rapidly from rectum
Now lets set aside the fact it would be a massive undertaking for a moment.
Assuming it was done well would you like to see the wiz and sorc further separated into separate spell lists with their own flavor.
If you do like this ides how would you do it ?
taking the existing mixed spell list and split it down the middle giving sorcs the more raw power spells and wizard the more controlled intricate spells. And then flesh both out to cover any holes created in the process.
Or
Leave this existing mixed list as is and just come out with a PF magic book that expands spell lists separately for wizards and sorcs. ?
No. By the gods of magic, no.
The point of being a wizard is that you can cast any spell, but you have to prepare it before time.
The point of being a sorcerer is that you can cast any spell you know, but you are limited to a limited palate of spells known.
Perhaps the sorcerers spell list can be limited to exclude all those spells that sorcerers never take any way, but what's the point in that?
Part of making any spellcaster is determining their personal list. Whether they are just rejecting the use of particular spells or whether they're denied them is only a matter of degree.
The problems occur, of course, when you deny a spell to a caster not when you reserve their favourites.
And Utgardloki is perfectly correct the wizard\sorcerer list is more of a catalog than an actual game list. I think in most games variation should be the norm.
I remember an ill-fated attempt to use 'Mana Points' for all Casting Classes, but classes such as the Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin and Ranger, all of whom had 'set' spell-uses per day could only spend Mana Points on spells they had prepared that day, giving them a touch of the Sorcerer/Bard freedom. Thus a Wizard could prepare three 3rd level spells but spend the mana points freely between those classes.
Then again the Bard and Sorcerer got half as much again Mana Points and got a +2 Bonus on fatigue checks when casting (In that campaign casting any spell necessitated a DC 5+Spell Level Fortitude Check to avoid taking nonlethal damage) and could learn spells from any spell list, so *shrug* it was hideously unbalanced towards Casters.
I think "mana" has probably been represented somewhat by school/bloodline/domain powers.
you get a useful ability e.g. elemental wall, that you can throw out 10+ times a day one round at a time. you can leave it on all fight burning up a good chunk of uses or just pop it up as needed