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Okay, I need to slightly vent some steam and ask for advice, because my small mind just became very limited.
I have a player in a group, a family relative and a friend who always has some plans and is always last to give a feedback if he is coming on sessions (which are set at weekends).
As of recently, one player, host for our games, said that he wont be joining us next session and that he is going to the convention in other city. Sure thing, I have no objections, in fact, I presume that people will ask things sometimes or claim those moments when they cannot come to the game. It's normal and I know that everyone has his issues to solve eventually, but it's always Mr.X (lets just call him Mr.X shall we) with his plans recently.
He decided to not come on session even tho another player already said that he can't come and now I am down on three players left. His reason is "because he doesn't have much will". I tried talking, nothing proved to be wrong and I am just f***ing infuriated because of that. They are already all getting a weekend of due to Eastern Hollidays but he just can't wait.
So what's the proper way to punish a player enough so it doesn't reflect ingame to much and enough that I am not BBEG?
Find a new player?
I don't think you can punish someone for not wanting to play (or for wanting to do something else more). All you can do is set out some level of "truancy" unacceptable/undesirable to the group and ask people to commit to at least that level of attendance.
If he doesnt want to play he doesnt want to play, leave him out. I have found over the years that I needed to think out my group of flakey players. They are still my friends but if they are slow to respond and not enthusiastic they dont get involved. Better to play with 3 or 4 excited players then have one who is only sort of committed.
There is no sense in going passive aggressive and 'punishing' them. Thats just going to lead to conflict. If anything talk to him about it, ask if he really wants to play, and why he seems slow to respond to things. Maybe he is just a flakey person. It happens, and its up to you to decide whether thats an acceptable trait in a group member or not (seems like for you its not).
Players disengage for a reason. Talk to him as a human person out of game to suss it out. Leave the torture devices and heavy handed b.s. out of it.
Then cancel the game, pick it up the next week. Trying to force the player to play when he doesnt want to isnt going to help matters.
"Do you really want to play? It you can't or don't want to it's fine, but tabletop gaming groups require a measure of commitment, and I'd rather have a firm yes or no."
^What I said to a friend of mine who had the same situation.
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We have a player like this in my group. We just plan our game sessions based on everyone's availability except his. Of course, we tell everyone (him included) when our next session will take place.
This way, if he does not come (the most frequent case), it changes nothing. If there is a session and he can come, then he is welcome to it and we have one more player at the table to enjoy the game.
Note that this also means that his PC is completely peripheral to the party and that NO important part of our campaign will ever revolve around him.
Both the group of players and the party of PCs plan without taking him or his PC into account.
He has never been a jerk about this. Why should we try and punish him ?
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We sat our "Mr.x" down and told him that it was important to the group that he be able to commit. Everyone else commits to coming regularly for game night, and if he can't do that, then that's okay, but he's not a good fit for out group.
I use the analogy of being a part of a team. If one member of the team is routinely gone, or is flaky, it affects everyone. There's been lots of nights I don't really feel like going to my game, but I do, because I know that there's 4 other people counting on me being there.
In the end I push myself to go and end up having a ton of fun anyways!
Yeah. Punishing him is not the way to handle it. The objective would be to teach him a lesson and changes his behavior, right? But unless you're his parent, you simply don't have the authority to do it.
That doesn't mean that you can't try to change his behavior. You just have to do it differently. Talk to him. Find out if he's actually interested in playing the game, or if he's just coming to hang out. Explain that you feel frustrated and brushed off when he decides that he has 'plans' at the last minute, but not in a way that's going to lay blame or put him on the defensive. Use the other player's going away for a convention as an example. The key difference is that the other player let you know in advance, right? Instead of the night before, or the morning of.
If he's actually still interested in playing, then I'd follow black raven's example and keep him as a tertiary member until his attendance improves.
Meanwhile, I think it's time to start looking for another player. There are a LOT more players out there looking for a game than there are frustrated GMs wishing they had an extra player. It would NOT take you long. The biggest part of it would be introducing someone new into your circle of friends.
First, check around with your friends and associates. See if anyone else might be interested in gaming. This would be the best way, because you'll get someone your own age and close to your own social circle. Beyond that, I'd check sites like meetup.com and even the paizo forum that people use to look for games. The advantage to this is that you'll have a much better chance of getting someone who's seriously interested in playing.
You don't have to feel held hostage by your friend attending. YOU are the valuable resource here, because there aren't nearly as many people interesting in GMing as there are looking to play.
Back in the day when we were in our 20s I had a standing rule that if you miss a session without at least 24 hours notice and there's not a good excuse (work, health, or family) then your character gets half xp for the night. If you miss a 2nd consecutive session without a good reason your character came down with DM's disease (purple blotches, coughing, general malaise) and you still got half xp. If you missed 3 in a row then your character died. I never had a player die from DM's disease.
These days we are much more mature (being in our 30's and 40's) and just have a houserule that if more than 2 of the 6 players can't make it we reschedule. Everyone is good about keeping others updated on schedule conflicts and we work it out to the group's satisfaction (we play every other weekend).
As others have said, I would talk with this friend away from the game and let them know that it is important to commit to the game or else part gaming ways for the time being. Good luck!
If this player is causing problems for the gaming group, then don't confront him alone, have this brought up as a group issue to resolve so it's not you vs him, but him explaining his behavior to the group. If the group decides he's not worth it, then the group can boot him.
In the meantime, advertise online and at your local game stores for new players.
Back in the day when we were in our 20s I had a standing rule that if you miss a session without at least 24 hours notice and there's not a good excuse (work, health, or family) then your character gets half xp for the night. If you miss a 2nd consecutive session without a good reason your character came down with DM's disease (purple blotches, coughing, general malaise) and you still got half xp. If you missed 3 in a row then your character died. I never had a player die from DM's disease.
These days we are much more mature (being in our 30's and 40's) and just have a houserule that if more than 2 of the 6 players can't make it we reschedule. Everyone is good about keeping others updated on schedule conflicts and we work it out to the group's satisfaction (we play every other weekend).
Wow. Your group was generous. My last group gave out 0 xp if you missed a session (for any reason), and your character always came down with some sort of illness to "explain" why s/he wasn't participating. Although the characters never died for multiple missed games, if someone missed three sessions without a good reason, it was just assumed that they didn't want to play anymore, and their character just went away.
Back to the OP:
It's not your job to punish him. You're not his parent, you're not his spouse, you're not his teacher, you're not his counselor, you're not his priest, you're not his boss. You're his friend, and friend's don't punish each other.
Talk to him like a mature adult, like an equal. Ask him if he wants to play on a regular basis, if he doesn't want to play at all, or if he wants to play only occasionally. Be sure to stress that any of the above are fine. If he doesn't want to play at all, be sure to let him know that he's welcome to join any time, and you'll be sure to invite him to non-RPG events, such as board game nights or a drinking night. If he wants to play occasionally, set up and in-character reason that he's only there part of the time (perhaps his character works for the local king, and he has to leave to perform his duties every so often).
Not everyone enjoys gaming. Maybe your friend is one of those, and it's taken him a while to figure it out (or maybe he hasn't quite figured it out yet, but he finds other activities more enjoyable). Maybe he likes gaming, but his play style just doesn't mesh well with your playstyle, and he doesn't want to confront you or hurt your feelings (because he doesn't know how to say it in a way that is gentle).
Try not to be the unapproachable person (my last GM was very much that person; if anyone left her table for any reason other than job or school, she took it as a personal insult and would start talking trash about that person after they left). Be gentle, be mature. :)
Remember, this game is all about having fun. If someone isn't having fun, then they shouldn't be playing the game. They should be doing something else that is fun for them. That might involve changing the game rules, the setting, the campaign, or it may mean doing an entirely different activity, such as playing a different game or going out to clubs, or going snowboarding, or hiking, or reading, or whatever they want to do that is fun. Our hobbies should not be unsatisfactory work; they should be fun.
If a player is not there, I would think not getting any xp or treasure is the logical answer. Now if someone is npc'ing the character while he is gone, 1/2 or 1/4 shares may be appropriate. But a character should never get full xp when the player is not there. Falling behind is appropriate. Otherwise, the players that do show up are basically being punished, if the absent member gets the full rewards that they do.
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If a player is not there, I would think not getting any xp or treasure is the logical answer. Now if someone is npc'ing the character while he is gone, 1/2 or 1/4 shares may be appropriate. But a character should never get full xp when the player is not there. Falling behind is appropriate. Otherwise, the players that do show up are basically being punished, if the absent member gets the full rewards that they do.
Great. Now in addition to having to work overtime this weekend (and not getting any extra pay, because I'm salaried), I also have to be "punished" in my hobby that is supposed to be fun.
A friend who makes and then breaks commitments is simply unreliable. If that's how he is, make your plans accordingly. Don't count on him, don't plan anything special for him, and don't feel obligated to include him if he 'happens' to show up sometimes.
If he doesn't show up when he says he will, you have to assume he's going to be absent on a regular basis. So leave him out.
So what you're saying is that this "friend" isn't really a friend at all, because friends don't make assumptions about each other. They talk to each other like rational and mature adults to see if they can resolve any perceived or real issues.
Obviously, if his character is supposed to be present for a story and he bails, his guy 'stayed behind' and gets zero XP and treasure. I mean, that goes without saying! You NEVER get credit for a session you didn't attend, unless you make advance arrangements for someone else to run your character.
The ultimate breaking of verisimilitude and metagaming: if the player is unable to attend, their character stops interacting with the world.
So what you're saying is that this "friend" isn't really a friend at all, because friends don't make assumptions about each other.Yes, that is what I'm saying. A friend who breaks promises is not a friend at all.
Obviously, if his character is supposed to be present for a story and he bails, his guy 'stayed behind' and gets zero XP and treasure. I mean, that goes without saying! You NEVER get credit for a session you didn't attend, unless you make advance arrangements for someone else to run your character.The ultimate breaking of verisimilitude and metagaming: if the player is unable to attend, their character stops interacting with the world.Yup. Because not rewarding unreliable behavior is much more important than story realism in a game.
I'm not really keen on games that punish people for having a life. I have a wife, I have a kid. I have a job, and I attend school. I have weddings to attend, family BBQs to attend, work to get done, and exams to study for.
This game is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be an escape from reality. People have lives and shouldn't be "punished" just because they can't make it to every session. I am already being punished by having to work overtime or having to study for an exam. Why should I be "punished" again in the one thing that's supposed to help me relieve stress in my life?
When you have a choice to "break a commitment," what would you choose: your job, your education, your family, or your hobby?
Bookrat, I do not see the act of not giving an absent player xp or treasure as punishment. Personally, I would not want to receive rewards I did not earn. What I did say, that giving such rewards to an absent player, is punishing the players that did show up, and did all the "work" without the absent player.
Now if your own groups feels that it is acceptable that everyone gets the same xp and treasure, regardless of whether or not they participated, then that is great. In almost 30 years of playing, I have never seen a group where that worked though.
I've recently joined a group full of age 30+ adults with busy lives. They use evite to track who will be attending which session, and simply reschedule if a low attendance is expected. In that group, players that miss session don't get experience. However, players who talk to the GM about it ahead of time can arrange to post on the group's message board about what their character was doing during that time and get partial experience that way. It's a good alternative.
Bookrat, I do not see the act of not giving an absent player xp or treasure as punishment. Personally, I would not want to receive rewards I did not earn. What I did say, that giving such rewards to an absent player, is punishing the players that did show up, and did all the "work" without the absent player.
Now if your own groups feels that it is acceptable that everyone gets the same xp and treasure, regardless of whether or not they participated, than that is great. In almost 30 years of playing, I have never seen a group where that worked though.
This is a game. The point of the game is to have fun with your friends. At least, that's what it is for me. I don't view the game as a contest or as a set of punishments and rewards based on people showing up to play pretend with fake characters in an imaginary game.
Why does it matter that someone who doesn't show up once in a while still gets to play the same character level as everyone else? How does this somehow make the game less fun?
I've also been playing for multiple decades (so don't try to pull some "I've been playing a long time, so I know better" card). I'm going on two and a half decades of table top RPG gaming. There is absolutely no detriment to a game that levels everyone up at the same time regardless if the player shows or not. But I most certainly see a detriment to a game that punishes people for having a life - the entire group gets punished because one or two characters can't contribute as well as they could if their character were the same level as the rest of the party.
What I did say, that giving such rewards to an absent player, is punishing the players that did show up, and did all the "work" without the absent player.
What "work" did they do? They sat there, talked to each other, and rolled dice. Depending on the game, perhaps they did a bit of critical thinking, too (this is really the only "work" involved in the game). The players who showed up are already rewarded with experiencing the storyline and hanging out with friends while playing a hobby they enjoy, while the players who were unable to show were punished because they could not experience the storyline and could not hang out with friends while enjoying their hobby. Now you want to add additional rewards and punishments on top of that? For what? Is "not hanging out with friends" not a good enough "punishment"?
Do you also consider it punishment to the rest of the employees at a company if someone gets paid for sicktime off work? My wife just went to a convention, all expenses paid by her company. Were the other people in her department "punished" because they stayed behind to do work while she got paid to go to a convention (no work involved, just had to walk around, visit the booths, and attend interesting talks)? What if her coworkers couldn't go because they had kids and couldn't get (or afford) a sitter for a week? What's the difference between that and claiming that the other players are "punished" for doing all the work because one player had to stay home to watch the kids (or work overtime or study for an exam)?
Personally, I do not want to receive rewards I did not earn.
This is a nice sentiment, but I don't believe it for a second. You're telling me that you would refuse money from the lottery if you won? You would refuse a Christmas bonus from work (it's not part of your contracted pay, so you didn't "earn" it)? You would refuse money or gifts given to you on your birthday? You would refuse receiving a higher grade in a class? If you became homeless, you would refuse shelter or food given to you? If you were stuck out in cold weather, you would refuse a blanket?
I sincerely doubt it.
P.S. It amuses me quite a bit to talk about "earning" a reward in a game so strongly attached to the randomness of dice. I really hope you're not also one of those people who think that players should be punished for character deaths by having a new character start at a lower level then the rest of the party (all because they were unlucky in their dice rolls), while simultaneously believing that the players who were lucky somehow "earned" and "deserve" their rewards. After all, they both put in the same amount of effort - they both showed up and rolled dice. (Caveat: this assumes all other things are equal and only the dice rolls determine life or death, so don't try to pull the card of "the player who died must have made bad decisions").
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To nullify some comment's regarding player,
He is familyand blood is blood. You don't ditch family, well maybe if he was complete jerk, which he isn't, but I am not searching for new players. I have 5 already and it's a sweet spot for me, since if one person is missing, we can continue with other 4 perfectly, but effectively giving me gimp with a reason like "I don't feel like it" for one day only isn't good enough for me, even if it was told two days before. It doesn't really matter in end, I don't plan to cripple his character, deny XP, punish his character in any way. I want him to UNDERSTAND IT, that you don't quit when other's depend on you. That's all I am trying to do.
"Punishment" was maybe rough word which I used in title, but I am good guy usually, just nerves blow sometimes.
To nullify some comment's regarding player,
He is family friend and blood is blood. You don't ditch family, well maybe if he was complete jerk, which he isn't, but I am not searching for new players. I have 5 already and it's a sweet spot for me, since if one person is missing, we can continue with other 4 perfectly, but effectively giving me gimp with a reason like "I don't feel like it" for one day only isn't good enough for me, even if it was told two days before. It doesn't really matter in end, I don't plan to cripple his player, deny XP, punish his player in any way. I want him to UNDERSTAND IT, that you don't quit when other's depend on you. That's all I am trying to do.
"Punishment" was maybe rough word which I used in title, but I am good guy usually, just nerves blow sometimes.
If you want somebod to understand...than you got to explain it to him. I recommand a letter or e-mail...as it is sometimes easier.
If he is still jerking you around after repeated attempt on your part...that I suggest saying there is a game x day at y time...than take your group out to movie or something before he gets there. I doubt it will work either...but sometimes people need this kinda of thing to learn.
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This is why I own Forbidden Island, Kill Doctor Lucky, Carcassone, Settlers of Catan, two Munchkin sets...
If people can't make it or flake out we just play board games.
However, to get Mr. Flakey on track, I would suggest making it so that whoever misses a session without fair warning has to arrange a catch-up session at their house.
They have to do all of the phoning round and sorting out for you then.
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"Family is an accident of DNA"
- Dear Abbey