Goblin Squad Member
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It has been said by Stephen Cheney that the disarm combat maneuver has not been designed yet, but will probably function differently than in the PnP game. He also said that monks will have to "have various gear dependencies that are comparable to armor and weapon-dependent roles". In other posts IIRC weapons and armor will require consumables to maintain their qualities at their peak. I would like to discuss how consumables might be used in the design of combat maneuvers in PFO.
Disarm in particular seems most suited for the consumable mechanic. If it is designed as a temporary Weapon Lock, a weighted cord could easily be the consumable used in executing the Weapon Lock maneuver. That cord (if successful) would be destroyed when the weapon locked character breaks the lock. The maneuver could have its own skill tree with improving levels, such as a higher success rate or a longer lock, to access an Improved Weapon Lock feat.
Grapple could also have a similar consumable. Something like a hand-held bolas (to preserve the attacker-opponent mutual grappled condition from PnP) could be used to deny a character access to material spell components or a debuff using somatic spell components as well as dexterity debuff, attack debuff, and movement restriction. Again the bolas would be damaged or destroyed when breaking the grapple. Grapple would have a similar skill tree to improve success or access Improved Grapple.
Trip might be a little tricky as weapons can be used in Trip maneuvers. There could certainly be consumables required to maintain a weapon's trip function. However, an unarmed trip might be another matter. Per Stephen monks will most likely have to "have various gear dependencies that are comparable to armor and weapon-dependent roles" so there would have to be a relevant consumable for unarmed trip. An unarmed trip may not be allowed if it gives "an effectiveness bonus while naked over other roles".
Bull Rush and Overrun would be dependent on what collision mechanic are employed.
Sunder may not be allowed without a weapon or tool designed to the task.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of a consumable being needed to execute a combat maneuver. I think consumables should be used for temporary Buffs (Potions, Oils, Dusts), Debuffs(Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks), Direct Damage(Acid, Alchemist Fire), and Heals(Potions and unguents).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of a consumable being needed to execute a combat maneuver. I think consumables should be used for temporary Buffs (Potions, Oils, Dusts), Debuffs(Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks), Direct Damage(Acid, Alchemist Fire), and Heals(Potions and unguents).
How do Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks, Acid, Alchemist Fire differ from a disarm consumable, like a weighted chain?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of a consumable being needed to execute a combat maneuver. I think consumables should be used for temporary Buffs (Potions, Oils, Dusts), Debuffs(Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks), Direct Damage(Acid, Alchemist Fire), and Heals(Potions and unguents).How do Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks, Acid, Alchemist Fire differ from a disarm consumable, like a weighted chain?
Those devices do not require any skill to use. They are a one-shot that anyone can pick up and use. Disarm requires a weapon, and requires training (a feat in pnp) to be able to use the maneuver without penalty.
If you spend xp to learn an ability that is part of your character, I don't like the idea that you need a consumable to use that ability. Hell, I don't even like material components for spells, although I can at least accept them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thought I had was to make ki the consumable for combat maneuvers. The counter thought is that in making ki the maneuver consumable you would limit those maneuvers to a monk archetype track. If GW wants to make the focus on combat maneuvers a non-trivial (high cost) skill track, then making something like ki a requirement might make the monk a more desirable build.
From the GW blog
Monks—masters of ki power. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade.
Making combat maneuvers dependent on ki would strengthen the unarmed aspect of the monk archetype.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you spend xp to learn an ability that is part of your character, I don't like the idea that you need a consumable to use that ability. Hell, I don't even like material components for spells, although I can at least accept them.
Then you do not like crafting? Crafting requires resources that must be consumed to use that ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not just have Stamina be the consumable for combat maneuvers? You only have a limited stamina pool for each six second "round", so requiring different combat maneuvers to have different stamina costs seems the best way to balance them without relying on consumables or giving monks an advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harad, I like the idea of clickies/consumables that can be used for special effects, but there's something that seems off about the ones you describe.
Leaving a disarmed weapon equipped but unusable seems to me to be a necessary evil because it might not be acceptable to actually put it on the ground. I wouldn't want to reimagine the disarm process to account for the weapon remaining equipped but unusable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then you do not like crafting? Crafting requires resources that must be consumed to use that ability....
If you spend xp to learn an ability that is part of your character, I don't like the idea that you need a consumable to use that ability. Hell, I don't even like material components for spells, although I can at least accept them.
Crafting is different. It's not combat related and it logically requires base material to be crafted into finished goods. It is possible to disarm or trip someone without having anything equipped at all, so needing a consumable item to use those maneuvers is not logical from a reality perspective, and I don't believe it's needed from a balance one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harad, I like the idea of clickies/consumables that can be used for special effects, but there's something that seems off about the ones you describe.
Leaving a disarmed weapon equipped but unusable seems to me to be a necessary evil because it might not be acceptable to actually put it on the ground. I wouldn't want to reimagine the disarm process to account for the weapon remaining equipped but unusable.
I was trying to make some sense of Stephen's comment on disarm related to not being able to take something from a character's inventory. A temporary lock would "disarm" without removing the weapon. The lock would defiantly be temporary, either time dependent or a skill check to remove. His statement that monks and casters will have various gear dependencies had me thinking about how that would apply to combat maneuvers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of a consumable being needed to execute a combat maneuver. I think consumables should be used for temporary Buffs (Potions, Oils, Dusts), Debuffs(Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks), Direct Damage(Acid, Alchemist Fire), and Heals(Potions and unguents).How do Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks, Acid, Alchemist Fire differ from a disarm consumable, like a weighted chain?Those devices do not require any skill to use. They are a one-shot that anyone can pick up and use. Disarm requires a weapon, and requires training (a feat in pnp) to be able to use the maneuver without penalty.
I think all the devices you mentioned above (Tanglefoot bags, Caltrops, Thunderstones, Smokesticks, Acid, Alchemist Fire) should require a skill, as well as the item with which to execute the maneuver. I think use of almost ANY combat item should be a trained skill. Want to learn how to deploy caltrops correctly? Study how by getting training from a professional, reading a book, or learning from someone else who is skilled adventurer. Want to learn how to find and deploy acid? Get training! Want to learn how to use a smokestick? Get training!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think use of almost ANY combat item should be a trained skill.
Im in favor of this over consumables for combat maneuvers. It would make sense that using anything correctly in combat would require some level of training. As far as consumables are concerned it should only be for things that are actually consumed and provide a benefit (e.g. tanglefoot bags, caltrops, etc)