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Hey everyone. Hope you're all doing well.
My friend recently invited me to play in his Curse of the Crimson Throne game he'll be running soon. I wasn't sure what to play at first, and was fiddling with the idea of a magus, and then to zen archer (until I found out the party had a monk already), then to the idea of a human paladin, since we were rolling for stats and I got quite a good roll.
If I recall, my rolls were:
11
12
15
14
14
16
They can be placed in any slot, of course, and I didn't put them in that order, because ew.
Anyway, I've been taking a look at all the archetypes, and decided I might be a Warrior of the Holy Light, since I've never been too tied to spellcasting with paladins and I like lay on hands and interesting abilities like that. Thinking my Campaign Trait will be the Religious Unhappy Childhood one; I used to be raised by Lamb, but found a holy symbol of Sarenrae and started attending sermons in the church and became quite dedicated to the worship of her. After Lamb beat me and wrecked my holy symbol, I decided to flee his care and became adopted by the church where I assisted in healing the sick and injured. Was a rough childhood, but my character found great joy in helping those who needed help.
So my traits are: Unhappy Childhood (Religious), Strength of the Sun, and Caretaker (Our GM is allowing us one campaign trait and two of our choice).
I took a look at the Holy Tactician which seemed really cool, until I noticed I lost my Divine Bond. I didn't much like that idea, so I backed out of it. As far as my role in the group goes, I wanted to be something of a protector and someone who could actually take hits, because the party seems to so far be: A monk, a sorcerer, a melee bard, and a rogue. None of which seem readily able to take a few hits and live too long. I don't really want to forsake defense or combat ability one way or the other if I can help it, but with certain things, I'd probably be convinced of their worth.
Just curious, without spoilers or too much assistance (cuz I don't want to be literally prepared for everything, metagame style), anything cool anyone else has made as far as paladins go, or mix and match archetyping? Any feats anyone has used that they find quite interesting, fun, or useful?
Thanks everyone! :)
Your ideas are appreciated!
I've mentioned it before, but I play a Divine Hunter/Gunslinger in the campaign I'm playing in which I very much enjoy, but it's something of a very specific build. Divine Hunter by itself is good but has a higher Multiple Ability Dependency than going Gunslinger for your first 5 levels (thus allowing you to add Dex to damage and skip strength).
If you want a protector type character, you could always play a Sacred Shield, which get some VERY nice defensive and party support abilities.
I recommend staying away from Empyrial Knight because it gets rid of Divine Grace and replaces it with the ability to speak Celestial. You lose Charisma to saves, and gain a %(#)ing language. That's just insulting!
Another holy warrior style character that I have played and liked is a Cleric/Holy Vindicator. If you want to be Lawful Good the class supports it quite well, and the defensive abilities of the class are not insignificant. However, one of the better options is to be Lawful Neutral and channel Negative Energy making your Channel Smite a lot more useful since it will be useable against things other than Undead.
it totally depends on what role you want to play with your group, personally i like to be the party face, and wield a 2 handed weapon
maxing out diplomacy and intimidate and taking the feat antagonize, i also like to take a trait that gives me intimidate as a class skill, though it isnt necessary, extremely fashionable works well and also gives a boost to diplomacy, and antagonize basically makes you the center of attention drawing all the aggro
i also like getting access to fly and bear's endurance, so i often praise an oathbound variant against the wyrm, though im not sure if it conflicts with your deity
other important feats to look at are Power Attack and Unsanctioned Knowledge
Ah. I don't think my GM wanted to allow guns in this particular campaign just because neither him or I are very familiar with them or the technology level in the campaign, exactly. I also felt like playing a melee character for the most part. Sacred Shield did look pretty cool...
Agreed, Empyrial Knight... they get some cool stuff LATER, but earlier on, losing Divine Grace to gain a language sucks...
Two handed weapon may be a choice I can go for. Perhaps use a great sword, cuz I haven't used one of those in a long time. Antagonize would be good, but my lowest stat (11) was in my Int, so I only know Common, so I would only really be able to threaten a very small amount of creatures properly, unfortunately... Otherwise, that is a very cool feat.
I would have taken an oathbound archetype, but the Warrior of Holy Light archetype that I've been eyeing completely removes spellcasting from the paladin. I kind of wanted to be a more martial paladin with abilities to buff and protect the party, as well as doing some healing on occasion. (Lay on hands use is increased with the Holy Light).
So I guess that makes Unsanctioned Knowledge also useless for me.... Though those are quite good spells.
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I have to admit, I wouldn't give up spells for anything, especially giving up the ability to use wands too. If like me you aren't a big fan of dallying around too much with magic it is still worth keeping spells and simply picking very Paladinish ones.
Lvl 1 spells give you the ability to use Lay on Hands as an immediate action if you drop below 0 HP - awesome ability (best enhancement to LoH you can get I think!)
Lvl 2 spell there is one which as an immediate action allows you to take the damage instead of an ally - also amazing.
Lvl 3 I think gives Greater Magic Weapon (might be 4) which lasts hours (pretty much the day) and boosts your weapon nicely. Amazing ability and not something you have to think about or use up valuable combat actions for.
Those spells alone make it far more beneficial to you than any abilities you give up and they require no real thought (the first 2 are simply thoughts that go through yourh head when something goes wrong ' damn, if only I could...' with them you can).
Taking nothing but them will make the difference between life and death, missing and hitting a monster. All take and forget kind of spells, none wasting combat time.
the best alternative i can offer that isnt 2hw or archery is shield master sword and board, but the feat progression is tight and you're character wont shine until lvl 11
its also very equipment thirsty, though it is superior as far as DPR goes, assuming you get your full round
if you wanna give up spells, its a decent route since you're playing a paladin and dont really have much else to do
Hmm... I'll have to look at and compare some stuff...
Hey, there! I'm actually going to start an adventure path soon (Kingmaker) in which I'll be a paladin as well, and I'm also looking at the same race, and archetype! Haha.
Doing some research, I found that I really like the Falchion. 2d4 two handed weapon, with an 18-20 crit range is just amazing. Take Improved Critical and you'll have no problem hammering out DPS to match any of the party. Other than that I'd just recommend taking the divine bond with your weapon as opposed to your mount.
Hey, there! I'm actually going to start an adventure path soon (Kingmaker) in which I'll be a paladin as well, and I'm also looking at the same race, and archetype! Haha.
Doing some research, I found that I really like the Falchion. 2d4 two handed weapon, with an 18-20 crit range is just amazing. Take Improved Critical and you'll have no problem hammering out DPS to match any of the party. Other than that I'd just recommend taking the divine bond with your weapon as opposed to your mount.
never take improved critical
you get it for free when you bond with your weapon as you can pick the keen special ability, thus paladins unofficially gain a free feat if you choose not to go with a mount, which most do because the mount style is very limitingits one of the little things that people dont notice at first about them, but simply giving them improved crit as a bonus feat wouldnt work either, the way its done you can use any slashing or piercing weapon and still have the improved threat range, thus making it pointless to get improved crit, and also making it pointless to spend the gp on the +1 enchantment on a weapon, and its one of the most valuable assets any class gets as far as combat goes, and it just couples with how good paladins already are in pathfinder
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My Paladin of choice right now:
Background:
That day came when agents of the Incubus found the temple while Ashur and one of its priests were away. They returned to find every one of its members slaughtered and a pair of dretches lurking in ambush amongst the corpses. The fiends were slain, but the cleric suffered wounds too great to be healed, and as he died he shared with Ashur all that had been hidden from him. The youth remained behind to bury his former friends and teachers before devoting himself to Torag and to vengeance on his sire and all fiends that plagued this world, gathering what he could and setting out on his own.
Build:
Demon-Spawn Tiefling 1st level Oracle (Lore, Legalistic) / 19th level Paladin of Torag (Oath of Vengeance)
Favored class option for Paladins, Fiendish Sprinter, Clawed, Prehensile Tail
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 18
DEX - 10
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 7 (+1 at 20th level)
CHA - 18 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level)
Traits:
Suicidal (make yourself the target of an attack directed against an adjacent creature as an immediate action 1/day)
Purity of Faith (+1 Will saves, +1 saves vs. spells and effects originating from evil outsiders)
Feats:
1st - Fey Foundling (re-flavored as Mother's Sacrifice)
3rd - Power Attack
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
9th - Extra Lay on Hands
11th - Extra Lay on Hands
13th - Extra Lay on Hands
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
17th - Greater Mercy
19th - Radiant Charge or Ultimate Mercy
Mystery: Lore
Revelation: Sidestep Secret (replace Dexterity with Charisma for purposes of AC and Reflex saves)
Curse: Legalistic (become sickened for 24 hours if word is broken, gain +4 morale bonus to 1 roll/day when keeping word)
Skills: (2 ranks/level, 4 at 1st)
Craft: Blacksmith* - 1/1st level
Knowledge: Religion* - 1/1st level
Knowledge: Planes* - 1/1st level
Linguistics (Dwarven) - 1/1st level
Ride* - 1/even level 2nd - 20th
Handle Animal* - 1/odd level 2nd - 20th
Diplomacy* - 1/level 2nd - 20th
Languages:
Common, Dwarven, Abyssal
Racial Abilities:
Cold Resistance: 5, Electricity Resistance: 5, Fire Resistance: 5
+10 movement when running, charging or withdrawing
Darkvision 60'
Claws (Primary natural attacks 1d4/1d4)
Prehensile Tail (retrieve items as a swift action)
Basic Equipment:
Falchion, Bardiche, Light Armor (or Mithril Armor or Bracers of Armor), Cloak
The character has more Smites than he can use, can self-heal as a swift action for more damage in a day than most foes can dish out, and has incredibly high saves even for a Paladin. He adds his Charisma to his AC instead of his Dex, doubling it when he Smites. He's a mobile, nearly unkillable tank who hits very, very hard when faced with particularly dangerous evil foes.
I really like the flavor of the Tiefling for the character and the significant benefit of its favored class option for Paladins, but a lot of the core principles of the build could just as easily be used for a human instead... Oath of Vengeance is absolutely the way to go - while I added in Oath against Fiends for flavor purposes, its not really necessary for the build.
The character has more Smites than he can use
i think this is my main issue with oath of vengeance, and i dont think giving up valuable alternate abilities is really worth a bunch of smites that i wont need
i truly hate that build, it has no flavor beyond its background story and i think it shows one of the worst ways to play the paladin class, just as a big beatstick, where they usually can shine in more ways than that
@DesolateHarmony: Correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't think it can stack with Warrior of the Holy Light because it affects the Paladin's Spells, and Warrior of the Holy Light also affects spells (Removes them completely). I don't think they can use two archetypes if either one affects the same ability or skill that the other does.
@Damocles: I couldn't find what he has that causes his Charisma AC bonus to double when he smites. I might just be missing something simple, however.
So, I forgot to mention, there is a bard in the party that could easily take over my role as a wand-healer. Looking at the Paladin spells, there are a few that are rather cool, but Paladins get a very small amount of spells per day, enough for me to kind of say "meh". A lot of their spells' abilities can be gained through their Divine Bond, or other abilities of the Warrior of the Holy Light. Not that their spells are bad, particularly. Their spellcasting is just so diminished that I'm not exactly enthralled. Their class abilities are what really make me look at this class seriously. There are some other feats that made me really like lay on hands, such as the one where if the person being healed by Lay On Hands doesn't need a mercy you can bestow, they just get extra healing. Rather nice.
Well, that's fine either way. I don't intend on using a bow, despite many people saying it works REALLY well for paladins, so it's kind of a toss up. Taking Improved Crit may be good if I want a static crit increase without having to use a +1 bonus of my Divine Bond. But if I feel it's a waste, I can always use the feat elsewhere.
Lots of people seem to go for two-handed weapons as opposed to sword and board. Any particular reason?
Low feat investment, high damage
Makes sense. Efficient, I suppose. I kind of wanted to be more tanky, but I guess the simple fact of Full Plate can kind of circumvent that. Though people do say Smite can end up making all the difference as far as damage goes.
Also, crits seem to be quite important to higher damage output with smite, by the sounds of it.
The character has more Smites than he can usei think this is my main issue with oath of vengeance, and i dont think giving up valuable alternate abilities is really worth a bunch of smites that i wont need
i truly hate that build, it has no flavor beyond its background story and i think it shows one of the worst ways to play the paladin class, just as a big beatstick, where they usually can shine in more ways than that
Wow, that's um.... unfortunate.
The character can play as Smiting threat, certainly, but...
...he can also serve as the best Tank in the game, able to self-heal as a swift action and use Divine Bond to enchant his armor as well as his weapon. Suicidal helps as do all the auras he shares with teammates.
...he can also serve as a potent secondary healer - not all those extra LoH's need to be funnelled into Smites, after all, and Paladins offer one of the best options for condition/disease/poison/curse removal out there.
...he can also serve as a face (high Diplomacy + high Charisma).
...he can also serve as a useful source of knowledge (Oracle spell choices includes Know Thy Enemy).
...he can also serve as a solid buffer for the group, especially once he gets Blessing of Fervor offered by Oath of Vengeance.
This character has depth of story and can fill a wide variety of roles effectively. I think its a shame that your bias against Oath of Vengeance leaves you in a place where you're unable to appreciate all the things a particular character can do - perhaps you can elighten us on 'the best ways to play the Paladin class' since collectively a Smiting threat/Tank/healer/face/buffer is one of the worst...
two handed weapons cost less than sword and board and the feat chain only requires power attack, and maybe furious focus later on
it leaves your feats open for whatever you want, it also yield high damage output in a single attack so you can move and still get high damage output
taking improved critical on a bow is so pointless that i honestly forgot it was possible, an extra 5% chance to threaten a crit is so not worth a feat
and trust me that divine bond getting you the keen ability is the best thing you have, especially at lower levels when your divine bond can only get you +1 or +2
you also get GMW later on, and there are ways to bump you CL for it
many people recommend the falchion for its high crit range, or a couple of exotic weapons that you can nab proficiency with by taking the heirloom weapon trait
personally with the traits that you chose, i would say taking additional traits to get magical knack and heirloom weapon proficiency for either the fauchard or falcata would be fun, but its by no means a staple or necessary
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@Damocles: I couldn't find what he has that causes his Charisma AC bonus to double when he smites. I might just be missing something simple, however.
So, I forgot to mention, there is a bard in the party that could easily take over my role as a wand-healer. Looking at the Paladin spells, there are a few that are rather cool, but Paladins get a very small amount of spells per day, enough for me to kind of say "meh". A lot of their spells' abilities can be gained through their Divine Bond, or other abilities of the Warrior of the Holy Light. Not that their spells are bad, particularly. Their spellcasting is just so diminished that I'm not exactly enthralled. Their class abilities are what really make me look at this class seriously. There are some other feats that made me really like lay on hands, such as the one where if the person being healed by Lay On Hands doesn't need a mercy you can bestow, they just get extra healing. Rather nice.
I may have worded that poorly - the Oracle mystery allows the character to use Charisma to boost his AC rather than his Dexterity. When Smiting, a Paladin gets an AC bonus equal to his Charisma. Those two bonuses stack.
Paladins get a bum rap when it comes to spells - sure you don't want to rely heavily on being a caster, but the trick here is action economy... Paladins have some really great swift or immediaqte action spells. The few spells you do get you can REALLY maximize your effectiveness as a character. A few examples:
1st level - Heroic Defiance allows you to use Lay on Hands as an immediate action. This spell will absolutely save your life, allowing you to put yourself into harm's way more often. I always keep two on hand. Divine Favor is a very useful buff when facing non-evil foes.
2nd level - Litany of Righteousness is a swift action spell doubles all of your damage against a target (as well as that of any other character with a good aura) for 1 round. Your Smite deals double damage against certain foes its opening round - this in turn doubles that. Talk about taking the head off of a dragon or fiend for a single swift action 2nd level spell. Paladin's Sacrifice is an immediate action spell that lets you absorb damage or effects that you can heal or might even be immune to, potentially saving a TPK.
3rd level - Oath of Vengeance gives you access to one of the best group buffs in the game - Blessing of Fervor. Check it out. Deadly Juggernaut is another potentially fun spell and is one of those difference-makers when you're battling non-evil foes.
4th level - Sacrificial Oath allows you to keep an ally alive through almost anything. Bloodsworn Retribution is so potentially powerful its almost game-breaking.
The character has more Smites than he can usei think this is my main issue with oath of vengeance, and i dont think giving up valuable alternate abilities is really worth a bunch of smites that i wont need
i truly hate that build, it has no flavor beyond its background story and i think it shows one of the worst ways to play the paladin class, just as a big beatstick, where they usually can shine in more ways than that
Wow, that's um.... unfortunate.
The character can play as Smiting threat, certainly, but...
...he can also serve as the best Tank in the game, able to self-heal as a swift action and use Divine Bond to enchant his armor as well as his weapon. Suicidal helps as do all the auras he shares with teammates.
...he can also serve as a potent secondary healer - not all those extra LoH's need to be funnelled into Smites, after all, and Paladins offer one of the best options for condition/disease/poison/curse removal out there.
...he can also serve as a face (high Diplomacy + high Charisma).
...he can also serve as a useful source of knowledge (Oracle spell choices includes Know Thy Enemy).
...he can also serve as a solid buffer for the group, especially once he gets Blessing of Fervor offered by Oath of Vengeance.
This character has depth of story and can fill a wide variety of roles effectively. I think its a shame that your bias against Oath of Vengeance leaves you in a place where you're unable to appreciate all the things a particular character can do - perhaps you can elighten us on 'the best ways to play the Paladin class' since collectively a Smiting threat/Tank/healer/face/buffer is one of the worst...
holy warrior of light gives up spellcasting, so all the spells he gets comes from oracle
and he's a potent secondary healer anyway, as well as being a good party face anyway, your build does nothing to change that from any other paladin
not that extra lay on hands is bad, i like it, but i think that much of it is overkill and a waste of feats and resources
unsanctioned knowledge grants access to Haste, which is arguably better than blessing if only for the duration being in minutes rather than rounds, it also gives access to divine power, and blur or displacement
im always a fan of the feat antagonize for paladins since you draw the attention to yourself so you can tank more and tank better
radiant charge is also a poor choice since the player cannot choose to allocate all those loh uses, making taking all that extra loh that much more useless since all of his feats then become worthless on one attack that probly would have killed the thing anyway with less loh invested, its very counter-intuitive
personally, radiant charge builds are better for lancers and channelers, since taking extra channeling gives you a separate pool of uses for heals, it also means you cant do it with oath of vengeance
Fey Foundling Feat for that +2/Hit Die of Healing. With a sword and board Paladin with 16 Charisma....he will methodically whittle down any opponent and with his 4 LOH at first level.
I did look carefully at Warrior of the Holy Light. Early on it is pretty powerful buff for the party; a combo of Bless and Divine Favor for everyone for 1 minute. Once you start to get (or, not get) 2nd level spells you do realize the Archetype's limitations. The bonuses don't go to +2 until 20th level.
If you know your party is going to get beyond 7th level then stick with the Vanilla Paladin. As stated earlier, it seems the most powerful.
Hmm... this is what makes it difficult for me to pick between spells and Warrior of the Holy Light.
I love the many extra lay on hands I get with the Warrior of Holy light, as with the alternate uses of it as well. There was another archetype that went well with it that allowed further uses of Lay on Hands to do some pretty spiffy stuff.
Those spells do seem rather nice, however. I just dislike how I get to start curing light wounds and level 4+. Kind of 'last horse' fashion. Though to be honest, by the sounds of it, I wouldn't be focusing on healing with my spells, rather than buffing myself and using interesting effects with them.
And it occurs to me, is your Paladin also a Divine Shield or whatever archetype it is? I can't remember if base paladins get their cha to AC without that other type of smite.
The coolest thing to do with a Paladin is Sacred Servant. Just so insanely cool, get that unicorn with lots of nice SLA's, later that even cooler - almost ridiculous Cuoatl! Whats better to have as mount? Add growths or tactics domain and if you're missing those smites get oath of vengeance.
This planar ally stuff is just so incredibly wonderful as long as your DM isnt a jerk:D
Hmm... this is what makes it difficult for me to pick between spells and Warrior of the Holy Light.
I love the many extra lay on hands I get with the Warrior of Holy light, as with the alternate uses of it as well. There was another archetype that went well with it that allowed further uses of Lay on Hands to do some pretty spiffy stuff.
Those spells do seem rather nice, however. I just dislike how I get to start curing light wounds and level 4+. Kind of 'last horse' fashion. Though to be honest, by the sounds of it, I wouldn't be focusing on healing with my spells, rather than buffing myself and using interesting effects with them.
And it occurs to me, is your Paladin also a Divine Shield or whatever archetype it is? I can't remember if base paladins get their cha to AC without that other type of smite.
paladins shouldnt ever prepare healing spells, buy a wand since you dont need to make a check to use it, and LoH is a better healing mechanic than the clerics channeling if only because you can choose your target and do it as a swift action
and ftr rangers get the worst healing progression in the game
paladins always add their CHA as a deflection bonus during a smite
the spell progression doesnt show up til lvl 4 because it isnt really needed that bad tbh, i like it because its a buff your caster doesnt have to waste on you or even better its one they can cast on someone else giving the party better action economy
you are a melee character, and you should never feel bad about the amount of spells you get because they are not the focus of your character, that said, they are still an extremely useful pouch in your utility belt and i would advise not ignoring it
of all the full BAB classes the paladin is the most powerful, albeit the most restrictive (save for maybe the gunslinger on both those fronts) and without some looking into it you will end up with a very one-dimensional view on it like taking extra lay on hands 13 times which is an atrocity in my book because the class has so much more potential than that
I didn't notice that. Indeed, they do get the deflection bonus with smite, therefore making it almost unnecessary for me to have a shield. Pretty cool there.
Suppose it might be better then for me to do a two-handed weapon, not sword and board, and perhaps stick with spells that buff me or help others. The lay on hands stuff is rather cool, but I guess I can always take Extra Lay On Hands feats if need be.
Paladins don't do cure spells - that's what wands and lay on hands are for. But there's a lot of very nice spells that they can have fun with boosting their attacking or survivability.
holy warrior of light gives up spellcasting, so all the spells he gets comes from oracle
and he's a potent secondary healer anyway, as well as being a good party face anyway, your build does nothing to change that from any other paladin
not that extra lay on hands is bad, i like it, but i think that much of it is overkill and a waste of feats and resources
unsanctioned knowledge grants access to Haste, which is arguably better than blessing if only for the duration being in minutes rather than rounds, it also gives access to divine power, and blur or displacement
im always a fan of the feat antagonize for paladins since you draw the attention to yourself so you can tank more and tank better
radiant charge is also a poor choice since the player cannot choose to allocate all those loh uses, making taking all that extra loh that much more useless since all of his feats then become worthless on one attack that probly would have killed the thing anyway with less loh invested, its very counter-intuitive
personally, radiant charge builds are better for lancers and channelers, since taking extra channeling gives you a separate pool of uses for heals, it also means you cant do it with oath of vengeance
Okay, first off I never said anything about Holy Warrior of Light anywhere in my post. Secondly, Paladins are NOT qualiuty secondary healers on their own as their spells are used otherwise and they don't get enough LoH's to keep themselves alive if tanking AND heal their allies. Sorry, but I'm always going to consider someone with 20+ LoH's to be a better secondary healer than someone with less than a dozen.
As far as 'that much of it' - what are you using Lay on Hands for in this build?
Swift action self-heals in combat
After combat secondary heals
Condition removal
Healing poison, curing disease and removing curses
Gaining Extra Smites
Granting your entire party a Smite-like ability
Using them as a targeted Dimensional Anchor against evil outsiders
...that's a LOT of uses, a lot of versatility from just a single feat. You're not getting extra uses of Lay on Hands with those feats, you're getting extra uses of an entire host of abilities, some offensive, some defensive and some utilitarian based on what you need from fight to fight and campaign to campaing. That makes it about as efficient and versatile a use of feats as there is in the game if you actually pay attention to everything you can do.
Unsanctioned Knowledge in order to take Haste is a waste in my opinion as I've never been on a party that relied on its Paladin to cast Haste - let one of your actual casters (Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Summoner, etc.) do that. Moreover, Unsanctioned Knowledge requires a higher Intelligence score which takes a MAD character and makes him even moreso.
There are far better ways to protect your allies than burning a feat for Antagonize, some of which I've already illuminated - have you ever looked at the feat's inherent limitations?
Radiant Charge is optional and comes at the very end of the build - kind of like a pocket nuke should you ever need it. Lots of options for the 19th level feat out there if you ever even get the character that high - hardly an integral part of the build...
...but then, I thought we were discussing how my build was nothing more than a 'beatstick' and 'one of the worst ways to play a Paladin'... still waiting for an explanation on that considering all of the things I've pointed out.
No no, the Warrior of Holy Light was my original wanted archetype. That's why I keep bringing it up.
These all sound quite valid. Odd, I've never had this much trouble deciding on how I wanted to play a class lol
I heard sword and board pallies tend to get ignored by DMs in combat if your AC is too high. With LoH you can afford a little lower AC and make yourself a bigger threat with a two hander. I took Die Hard and endurance with my pally since we don't have a combat healer so if I get critted, I can stay up and swift action LoH myself.
I ended up taking Leadership to get a healbot cohort and later form a group of Knights to purge Geb. Getting a buttload of extra LoH may be useful when we're swimming in undead...
I like the Divine Defender/Oath Against Savagery combo, although giving up Divine Grace for Holy Reach is a difficult decision. You can still tank, give nice defensive bonuses to your allies, and your overall offense remains strong.
I used to look over Holy Tactician. Having struggled with Paladin builds recently, the extra Feats, etc. seem worth sacrificing Smite. It's not for everyone. Teamwork Feats are fun too.
I heard sword and board pallies tend to get ignored by DMs in combat if your AC is too high. With LoH you can afford a little lower AC and make yourself a bigger threat with a two hander. I took Die Hard and endurance with my pally since we don't have a combat healer so if I get critted, I can stay up and swift action LoH myself.
Consider grabbing a Heroic Defiance or two and freeing up those feat slots - it grants a use of LoH as an immediate action.
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When I first opened this, I was planning to suggest exactly what Damocles suggested. There is no better paladin tank in the game. You are one of the greatest threats period. You have an insane to hit, since you're mostly damage oriented, but you are far from defenseless. You have some of the best saves in the game, and unparalleled self healing.
For example: At 10th level you have 5d6 LoH. With Greater Mercy (which should be taken at 5th level) you get: 6d6. Add in +10 for your favored class (seriously, every FC point gives me one more healed. Thats basically and extra hit point for each LoH that STACKS!). Then add +12 for Fey Foundling. 6d6 +22???? Insane. All this while you have a No-dachi or falchion, doing 15-20 crit threats with power attack and smite up.
Your spells also make you a tanking god. I personally prefer the Oath Against the Wyrm for this build. It gives situation evasion (hey, who's going to complain about that. Plus, channeling is especially bad for you, you lose out on a lot of your bonuses to do it). Divine bond doesn't hurt, and neither does the Dragon-Slaying Strike (especially if you do the oracle of lore dip. Also, don't go dual-cursed, it steals you swift for the next round). Instead, you get an insane amount of spell versatility. Enlarge Person before combat? Fly? Stoneskin?
If you want to take some variation on Damocles build, I suggest a few more versatility feats, and a few less extra LoHs. Namely, the step ups are nice if an enemy is trying to get away from you. If you're willing to be a bit more MAD (highly unoptimal given how little you need dex for) take combat reflexes and stand still or something. Hell, take improved trip! You're still an invincible damage god, and now you have versatility.
P.S. Hi Damocles! I didn't see you at DunDraCon, I was all ready to call you a munchkin.
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Also, for spell choices I know they;ve been mentioned previously but here's my take (I played a sword an dboard paladin before I realized 2H was better, so I still know the good tank spells)
1st: Heroic Defiance, pretty much all slots unless you need a versatility one like veil of positive energy or something for a day. Grace maybe. An enlarge person is also nice if you get prep rounds. Seriously, Heroic Defiance is GODLY. Heh, godly.
2nd: Litany of Righteousness x10000. This spell is swift action double your damage. My 11th level sword and board pally did over 200 damage in one round thanks to this, and he's certainly not optimized damage wise (smite was up, it was undead, and scored crits every time so I got x3 damage). The only other spell I'd suggest for this slot is Paladin's Sacrifice. In a PFS scenario I was in, if I had been paying better attention, this would have saved us a ton of pain. Even then, it kept a character from dying. The wizard was hit with feeblemind. If I'd used this, the wizard would have been fully functional rather than throwing alchemist's fires all the time.
3rd: Fly. At least one (assuming Oath of Wyrm.) This slot I generally use for versatility. Daylight so the primary casters don't need to prep it. Burst of speed to save an ally. Litany of escape (Note: Litany of sight would be good if it weren't for 1 freaking round!) I've also prepared blade of bright victory (which got me that 200 damage earlier, seriously, first time prepping it and we're fighting multiple incorporeal encounters)
4th: If you want to pay for it, Stoneskin. That + your self heals is just too good. Litany of Thunder and Vengeance are very useful (vengeance is a toss up with righteousness. Righteousness give you more bang for your buck, but if you have a flurrying monk this will be better) Generally, more versatility. Sacrificial Oath is Shield other on steroids. You might actually want shield other instead of this. King's Castle is a short distanc e standard action teleport trade, but it's just not worth it. Break Enchantment is very useful in this slot.
P.S. Hi Damocles! I didn't see you at DunDraCon, I was all ready to call you a munchkin.
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft!
I ain't no munchkin. I believe in coming up witha great character concept and backstory and then doing everything you can to make your character as effective as possible within the framework of that concept. Can I help it if I'm so good at making builds? :-P
Seriously though, I keep meaning to set up a folio of my favorite builds, just the top couple dozen across all races and classes... maybe via Google docs or something so they can be linked here.
I wish I could have made DunDra Con - any Con, really. Situated here in southern Louisiana I'm really in the armpit, the black hole if you will of RPgaming. I mean really, Arkansas to the north, Mississippi to the East and a vast expane of Texas landscape to the west... so sad.
Hm. I'm starting to very much rethink my character to use spells and 2 handed weapons then. With the right work-arounds... possibly an oath of some sort. Not certain I want to take it against the wyrm because I dunno how often I'd actually be fighting dragons in this campaign. Then again, I'm not sure. Oath of Vengeance just sounds cool.
I'm planning on a human Ninja/Pally build for a campaign starting at level 5 soon. I posted it on the board a couple of days ago and, based on the feedback, came up with this:
Lv.1 (N1): Dodge, Mobility, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (N2): Ki Pool, Slow Reactions
Lv.3 (P1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Power Attack
Lv.4 (P2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Lv.5 (P3): Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy, Combat Reflexes
Lv.6 (SD1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (SD2): Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Cornugon Smash
Lv.8 (P4): Channel Wrath, Smite Evil/2 Day
Lv.9 (P5): Divine Bond, Extra Lay on Hands
Lv.10 (SD3): Summon Shadow, Intimidating Prowess
Lv.11 (P6): Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands
Lv.12 (SD4): Shadow Call, Shadow Jump 40 ft.
Lv.13 (P7): Smite Evil/3 Day, Unsanctioned Knowledge
Lv.14 (P8): Aura of Resolve
Lv.15 (P9): Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands
An Oath of Vengeance vigilante type. I call it, with a nod to paladin gaming lore, "The Holy Avenger." ;)
I playtested it in a little one-shot with my DM the other day and it was super fun. Smites and LoH lag somewhat, but damage is still pretty good and it plays pretty well with others thanks to slow reactions and intimidation tactics. Plus, what with tossing smoke pellets around and sneaking up on the baddies -- and those big numbers from blowing ki on extra attacks, it felt sort of like playing a comic book hero. Probably not nearly as mechanically powerful as Smitey McLays-on-Hands above (That's a great build, btw, makes me want to play a tankier pally at some point!) but an absolute blast to play.
The nodachi does give me a cool idea for maybe making a Tieni paladin who was abandoned in Korvosa at a young age with nothing but his sword or something. Which Lamb took from him, but he eventually regained when he fled.
Oath agaisnt the wyrm offers the most versatility for certain, tbh I've never needed more than 4ish smites in a game day, but I use them sparingly
You simply cannot argue that dumping all your feats on extra loh is a good idea when theres so much more you could be doing
Oath agaisnt the wyrm offers the most versatility for certain, tbh I've never needed more than 4ish smites in a game day, but I use them sparingly
You simply cannot argue that dumping all your feats on extra loh is a good idea when theres so much more you could be doing
He can. And has - very, very effectively in fact.
What is it exactly that having so many LoH's is preventing him from doing?
Offense? No, since he can burn LoH's for Smites.
Team Offense? No, since he can burn LoH's to give his entire team Smites.
Self-Healing? Nope, he can do it as a swift action almost at will.
Group Healing? Nope, as those extra LoH's mean he's more likely to have some to spare for his teammates.
Defense? No, since Smite boosts his AC against his target.
Team Defense? Nope since those Smites can be used for a variety of condition removal to get his teammates back into the action.
Whats great about taking so many is that you have the versatility to use them however you need them - offense, defense, healing, condition removal - and in his case even as a Dimensional Anchor. Call me confused, but I'm trying to figure out what all that versatility is preventing him from doing... name another feat that offers so much on the offensive AND defensive side.
Its okay if you don't like it - or don't get it - but that is a VERY solid and versatile Paladin build. Oath Against the Wyrm on the other hand... talk about a limiting option. What can you do if you're not fighting dragons? You're better off with a standard Paladin than that. You get Evasion but ONLY against dragon breath weapons and for a class with traditionally low Reflex saves no less. For that you lose the ability to heal all your teammates at once. Your Weapon Bond ability becomes less useful against anything EXCEPT dragons. Whoopee.
Oh, and I like the noble scion of war feat that lets you use charisma for initiative. Combined with sidestep secret my dex is in the toilet. If I want to do a ranged attack I have to use a wand of magic missile. Good thing UMD is charisma based eh?
Noble Scion of War means no Fey Foundling though...
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Look up Champion of Irori PrC. THen imagine The possibilities. THier near endless!!!
Afterall, who wouldnt want to be able to spend Ki for additional Lay on Hands or Smites as well as Smiting chaos, whirlwind Smiting, resolving Meless as Touch attack and being able to do the most unarmed damage of anyone bar none!!
Plus you can choose Divine Hunter/Ki Archer for expert switch hitting. or going Sensei and eliminating your MAD making you ever only need Wis and Cha and maybe Dex
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Its okay if you don't like it - or don't get it - but that is a VERY solid and versatile Paladin build. Oath Against the Wyrm on the other hand... talk about a limiting option. What can you do if you're not fighting dragons? You're better off with a standard Paladin than that. You get Evasion but ONLY against dragon breath weapons and for a class with traditionally low Reflex saves no less. For that you lose the ability to heal all your teammates at once. Your Weapon Bond ability becomes less useful against anything EXCEPT dragons. Whoopee.Oath agaisnt the wyrm offers the most versatility for certain, tbh I've never needed more than 4ish smites in a game day, but I use them sparingly
You simply cannot argue that dumping all your feats on extra loh is a good idea when theres so much more you could be doing
I honestly don't see Wyrm losing that much. Situational evasion isn't great, I'll agree. But it is much better for people who are more conservative with their smites (or often find only 1-2 fights that have a single bad guy, there's often a lot of mooks). Instead of that, they get quite the versatility. At low levels, this is reach and higher damage from enlarge. At higher levels, it means you don't have to find some other means of flight, and stoneskin can lead to a very high defense when combined with the spam healing. The aura of justice from vengeance is flat WORSE than wyrm's, since it denies the bonus to AC and attack. Sidenote: I just realized powerful justice only costs one smite, not two. The damage bonus is still great. How many paladins really put Brilliant energy, merciful, or disruptive on their weapons? Keen and flat +s, maybe holy, are by far more common. And in the situation versus a dragon, wyrm wins hands down.
Oath agaisnt the wyrm offers the most versatility for certain, tbh I've never needed more than 4ish smites in a game day, but I use them sparingly
You simply cannot argue that dumping all your feats on extra loh is a good idea when theres so much more you could be doing
He can. And has - very, very effectively in fact.
What is it exactly that having so many LoH's is preventing him from doing?
Offense? No, since he can burn LoH's for Smites.
Team Offense? No, since he can burn LoH's to give his entire team Smites.
Self-Healing? Nope, he can do it as a swift action almost at will.
Group Healing? Nope, as those extra LoH's mean he's more likely to have some to spare for his teammates.
Defense? No, since Smite boosts his AC against his target.
Team Defense? Nope since those Smites can be used for a variety of condition removal to get his teammates back into the action.
Whats great about taking so many is that you have the versatility to use them however you need them - offense, defense, healing, condition removal - and in his case even as a Dimensional Anchor. Call me confused, but I'm trying to figure out what all that versatility is preventing him from doing... name another feat that offers so much on the offensive AND defensive side.
Its okay if you don't like it - or don't get it - but that is a VERY solid and versatile Paladin build. Oath Against the Wyrm on the other hand... talk about a limiting option. What can you do if you're not fighting dragons? You're better off with a standard Paladin than that. You get Evasion but ONLY against dragon breath weapons and for a class with traditionally low Reflex saves no less. For that you lose the ability to heal all your teammates at once. Your Weapon Bond ability becomes less useful against anything EXCEPT dragons. Whoopee.
but all of those things are things he can do anyway, thats the point, its overkill and the feats (at least some of them) could be better spent
i wouldnt burn all my feats on extra loh unless i planned on being the dedicated healer, and even then greater mercy at least would be a good idea at some point
what happens when an adventuring day is over and you realize you still have over 20 lay on hands left and the healer has already patched everyone up
its a waste if you do it too much
i think you are failing to realize here im not saying dont take extra loh, im not even saying dont take it more than once, im just saying there are more feats worth taking
my personal favorite paladin build:
Oathbound Paladin (Oath Against the Wyrm)
Versatile Human (Cosmopolitan Human) (+2 STR, +2CHA)
20 point buy
STR 15(17) +1 lvl 4
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15(17) +1 lvl 8
25 Point Buy
STR 16(18)
DEX 12
CON 15 +1 lvl 4
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15(17) +1 lvl 8
Feats:
[trait] Extremely Fashionable (Intimidate as class skill) Magical Knack (+2 CL)
[lvl 1] Power Attack
[lvl 3] Antagonize
[lvl 5] Unsanctioned Knowledge
[lvl 7] Extra Lay on Hands/Greater Mercy/Toughness/Word of Healing
[lvl 9] Death From Above
Skills:
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Spellcraft/Knowledge(Religion)/Sense Motive/Perception
and the build is pretty much done by lvl 10, when you get access to 3rd level spells like fly and haste, i personally like crafting feats if for no other reason than to guarantee that i get the items i want, so normally i do that at lvl 7, and my priorities usually include an orange ioun stone so i attain full CL for buffs like GMW simply because it saves my wizard a spell, assuming i have a wizard, death from above is great for the build because you should be planning on flying around a lot, and making charges at a +5 instead of +2/-2 is really nice
later levels i like furious focus because its basically another +5 to hit from a feat, earlier its not that good, but number jumps like that are hard to come by
also, evasion against dragons isnt a bad ability, and admittedly the vengeance oath is better for that particular reason, in fact, that alone is the only reason why people take it instead
saying that oath agaisnt the wyrm isnt useful against anything but dragons is well.... did you even read it? i can make my weapon dragonbane instead of merciful, and i no longer have access to brilliant energy or disruption, brilliant energy doesnt even become available until way late, and disruption isnt even that good, especially when i need to use it on a bludgeoning weapon anyway
and you do realize that vengeance also cant heal multiple allies at once right? i mean, if you were arguing the case for a straight core paladin sure, but come on, at least have a feasible argument
i feel i must reiterate because you guys arent getting the message, im not saying vengeance is bad, and if i were to play a vengeance paladin i would also take more extra lay on hands, but its still not the best way to play it by taking only extra lay on hands
personal take on vengeance oath:
Oathbound Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Versatile Human (Cosmopolitan Human) (+2 STR, +2CHA)
20 point buy
STR 15(17) +1 lvl 4
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15(17) +1 lvl 8
25 Point Buy
STR 16(18)
DEX 12
CON 15 +1 lvl 4
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15(17) +1 lvl 8
Feats:
[trait] Extremely Fashionable (Intimidate as class skill) Magical Knack (+2 CL)
[lvl 1] Power Attack
[lvl 3] Antagonize
[lvl 5] Unsanctioned Knowledge
[lvl 7] Extra Lay on Hands
[lvl 9] Extra Lay on Hands
Skills:
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Spellcraft/Knowledge(Religion)/Sense Motive/Perception
Unsanctioned Knowledge is too good to pass up imo, and i really dont need too many smites in one day, or i just feel they are wasted when you could be doing more to help your team, i just hate how one dimensional that build up there is, all you have is your class abilities, and you want to be the tank and the party healer, which is never a good combination
oh hey, im gonna go heal my friend real quick BBEG, brb
paladins get plenty of LoH, they really do, its CHA dependent, so bumping my CHA realistically to 22 gives me 6 + 1/2 my level, by lvl 8 that means 10 uses
thats 5 extra smites for vengeance, or 10 times over i can patch myself up in combat, or patch up someone else so they dont die, i.e. the role of a secondary healer
if you arent comfortable unless you have that extra cushion of 10+ LoH abilities that you arent even gonna use, go for it, but its suboptimal and i dont approve
never take improved critical
Untrue. As stated, for an archer paladin it's a good investment (instead of spending gold on keen arrows). Also, if this were a paladin with spells instead of a warrior of the holy light, then you would definitely want Improved Critical with either scimitar or falchion because of bless weapon: "In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword."
Alrighty! From a general consensus and gathering a bit of info and opinions... I will be going with an Oath of Vengeance, Two-Handed-Weapon Pali.
Going to be from Tien Xia as a partial excuse as well as funky backstory for my character. Going to be using a nodachi, and my full plate will be fashioned from a similar style to Japanese samurai.
Should be pretty interesting. Since my rolls were 15, 14, 14, 11, 13, 16, I think I may take the racial trait that gives humans two +2 bonuses, put my int as 14 instead of 11 and put my dex as 11, so that way, losing the skilled trait doesn't hurt as much. Though I am unsure if losing the feat will be crippling to me or not. Was contemplating taking Toughness at first level and Power Attack at 3rd.
Ability score placement would be:
Str: 17 with Human +2
Dex: 11
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 13
Cha: 18 with Human +2
Alternatively, could switch Strength and Charisma for first level. If I'm a paladin of Iomedae, I'd also likely take different traits. I'd still take Unhappy Childhood (Religious) as my campaign trait, and possibly Caretaker as another, but my third, I'm unsure of now.
I seem to be getting somewhere with this, thankfully. Thoughts on doing the two +2 bonuses as opposed to the bonus feat and skilled?
switch STR and CHA for 1st level, that extra 3 damage you net from upping your STR will matter for the first 3 levels, and you really wont *need* that +4 CHA until lvl 8 ish if you wanna bump DEX 1st for AC, also id switch DEX and WIS, since DEX has more application, also this armor here mixes with your flavor, and is cheaper than full plate, while offering the same max bonus to AC and this one is a little more expensive, but can capitalize on only having a +2 DEX and again mixes well with your flavor and is statistically equal to full plate
paladins dont use too many skills tbh, and 2HW only really requires power attack, so i highly recommend the cosmopolitan human
i also like the 14 INT as it gives you Unsanctioned Knowledge access, you can pick up Bear's Endurance, Displacement, and Divine Power, which are all great spells for you, and since you are going Vengeance, don't forget to take extra lay on hands at least once
as for traits, i always like to get something that gives me intimidate as a class skill, the best 2 being extremely fashionable (requires you to wear something shiny, like idk... full plate?) and prince/princess
both give +1 bonuses to diplomacy and intimidate, and let you pick one as a class skill (fashionable also gives +1 to bluff, but you wont be lying much so it doesnt matter)
other good traits are magical knack for +2 CL, heirloom weapon for free proficiency with something exotic, and anything that gives you bonuses on saves (preferably reflex)