Situation: PCs are freelance members of a mercenary army. Last session, they were in a battle with the commander of said army when one of the PCs cursed at her in the heat of the action (called her a "stupid c**t"). Commander is of neutral alignment, and understands things get hectic in the middle of combat, but referring to her using that particular term is over the line rude.
So I'm trying to come up with an appropriate punishment for PC's blatant disrespect. Dock his pay? 10 lashes? Terminate his contract?
I guess the bigger issue here is how discipline in general would be handled by a professional army in a fantasy setting.
Docked pay and latrine duty in the mercenary army.
**Unless you are wanting to create real friction between the NPC and this party member. Then go to something like public flogging (with the penalties to go with that)with strict orders of no magic healing for 48 hours. Stripping rank and pay permanently. Loss of access to magic items that other players have, etc.
How long term antagonistic do you want this to be?
Generally this is going to depend on how strictly discipline, especially in terms of "respecting the chain of command" is kept.
As a one-time offense in combat conditions, it could be as simple as a fine, perhaps confined to quarters (if not on the move or in battle), and a bunch of unpopular duties (kitchen work, cleaning the latrines, graveyard shift guard duty, and so on). It could also go up to flogging, up to and including a number of lashes likely to be fatal.
In general, in the modern world, I believe that striking a superior officer carries penalties up to and including dishonorable discharge and prison time.
Now if you want to fantasy it up, you can add magic to how the punishments are executed.
Killing the PC is probably a bad option, as is kicking him out of the army. A flogging may be appropriate, and it's likely that officers in between the PC and the commander might assign the PC the unpopular duties in an attempt to curry favor with the commander or reinforce the discipline.
Lashes and a lot of them
Was normal in most armies till the turn of the 20th century
That sounds like pretty serious insubordination. Part of any disciplinary decision would probably be an assessment of whatever mercenary company the character belonged to. If there was a significant chance of revolt, corporal punishment might be waived. But if this is a lone free-lancer, twenty to thirty lashes and termination of contract seem reasonable to me.
Historically, I suspect the offender would be more likely to be dead meat for such a lapse in judgment. Army discipline was rarely lenient or understanding.
What is the reputation of the female general? I like to think she might be like Penny in Big Bang Theory and call him out in front of the troops (or at least the group of mercenaries), tell him she doesn't want to ever hear that word come out of his mouth again, and kick him in the junk as hard as she can. Then walk off and let that be the end of it.
But it could depend on her reputation (and personality). Is she a hard-arse or someone more likely to turn the other cheek and let the offender off with a tongue-lashing instead of actual lashes? That could make a difference. Some reaction is definitely required, though. Good luck!
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My brother used to do Roman Military Re-enactment
Assuming you don't want to go straight to a full-blown flogging (animadversio fustium)
fines or deductions from the pay allowance (Pecunaria multa)
reduction of rations (amount or quality, barley instead of the usual grain ration)
reduction in rank (gradus deiectio)
additional duties (munerum indictio)
relegation to inferior service or duties (militiae mutatio)
Loss of advantages gained from length of service.
being hit by the centurion with his staff (Castigatio)
a dishonorable discharge (missio ignominiosa)
Some of these might not be available depending on circumstances. If there's no base pay (soldiers are paid only with loot) the reduction of pay isn't available. If the soldier to be disciplined is already the lowest rank, a reduction in rank isn't possible. If the entire outfit is under siege, all soldiers might already be at short rations or if the unit has no quartermaster or commisary corps, they might already be required to feed themselves. There might be no advantages based on length of service to revoke. If service was compulsory, then a dishonorable discharge might not be a punishment at all. Etc.
A lot depends on the nature of the mercenary company. Is it a cult of personality dependent on a charismatic leader ? Is it loyal only to coin and run with a business bent ? Is it an auxiliary group of soldiers who don't meet the requirements for the regular army ? Is it some sort of other group like a clan or a family business that took up the sword because they needed a new line of work ?
Depends on how powerful the PC is. And did anyone else hear?
If he's a hero and a legend, probably not much, maybe sent on a mission away from the general.
If he's still low/mid level, I'd say lashes and a fine. Or maybe even a suicide mission. Depends on the general...
Pathfinder has interesting magical options like Geas or Mark of Justice, of course. Even a creative Bestow Curse could make for a good punishment.
Alright, addressing some of the many good questions that were brought up:
1. PC in question does not have a rank in the army and is not a technical member of it. The way I've set it up is that the PCs are freelancers hired by the army to take care of problems that need PCs to address. The PCs are paid room and board to hang around and when something occurs that needs PC-level attention, they're given their mission(s) and paid via a separate agreement depending on the mission. There are no long term contracts; the freelancers are only required to commit a month at a time.
2. The battle where this occurred only involved the PC and the commander herself. They were the only ones to witness the incident.
3. The commander leads through a combination of personality, strategic & tactical skill, and good pay. However it is an army and discipline is important, so she can't let it get around that someone was blatantly disrespectful to her and suffered no consequences, especially one of the freelancers. In addition, she needs to make it clear that just because the PC is a freelancer and not an official soldier in the army that he can't just mouth off to her willy-nilly.
4. Because the freelancers aren't under any sort of long term contract, they can pretty much leave at any time, so I don't think drudgework will be a real punishment. (From an IC perspective. OOC, the player may go along with it because obviously if his character decides to leave he would have to create a new one.)
5. Even though the PCs aren't ranked members in the army, they do have a commanding officer (a colonel) they report to. The commander (her rank is marshal, so I'll be referring to her as that to avoid confusion) reports to the general of his division, who reports directly to the marshal. I'm thinking any punishment would be administered through the colonel.
Right now I'm leaning toward corporal punishment, handled mostly in passing. I don't I need to spend a lot of time RPing it out since I don't think there's a whole lot of value to it.
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The same thing that happens to a government contractor who mouths off to a military officer in the real world. Termination of contract, no further need of services.
Hope that PC likes working for free. I'm sure the rest of the party is going to be upset about the loss of an entire share of the loot.
Adding what TOZ said, I'd terminate the whole party's contractb. If that borks your plot, then rethink it or use one of the other punishments.
Perhaps best of both worlds: party is told they have a choice between all of them leaving without pay or the innocent PCs can come up with a sufficient punishment themselves for the perpetrator (within certain limits).
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After 7 years in the army, I would say wall to wall counseling. Honestly though, I have caused out a Maj as a SPC before. In the heat of battle, bad calls can be called out. If it was unwarranted disrespect however, 10 lashes in public and a 3-month dock in wages would be appropriate.
I have had a couple hilarious examples of warranted disrespect to a superior officer.
Pathfinder has interesting magical options like Geas or Mark of Justice, of course. Even a creative Bestow Curse could make for a good punishment.
These.
Bestow curse is all kinds of fun.
The better curses are made up. Remember that the examples given are with no stipulations so you could possibly bump up the penalties if you gave stipulations.
I'd say your answer lies entirely upon the personality of the commander in question. But some possibilities include:
1) If the commander has some sass to her she may very well have backhanded/slapped/punched the PC as soon as the immediate combat was over. Perhaps with a warning about respect and language, etc. This could also occur well after the incident in some private setting.
2) If the commander's personality includes rule through intimidation or martial strength she may very well have physically assaulted the player to literally strike home a lesson (assuming she believes herself martially superior to the PC).
3) If she's more relaxed or cautious she could have simply told the PC in no uncertain terms to watch their tongue in the future and not mention the incident. Since it didn't happen in front of people its not a big deal as long as the PC doesn't in some way talk about it. Assuming he does talk about it THEN I'd think about lashings, docked pay, fines, etc.
4) She could have simply ended his contract. Leadership rarely likes to be tested and will remove a perceived problems without a second thought. Generally no ones irreplaceable.
5) Maybe she has tough skin and doesn't really give a rats ass about what he said. Hell maybe it made her smile. People say all kinds of things in the heat of the moment. Depending on the situation and her appreciation for rough speech maybe they can be new drinking buddies!
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After 7 years in the army, I would say wall to wall counseling. Honestly though, I have caused out a Maj as a SPC before. In the heat of battle, bad calls can be called out. If it was unwarranted disrespect however, 10 lashes in public and a 3-month dock in wages would be appropriate.
I have had a couple hilarious examples of warranted disrespect to a superior officer.
Man, now I want to hear those stories!
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Man, now I want to hear those stories!After 7 years in the army, I would say wall to wall counseling. Honestly though, I have caused out a Maj as a SPC before. In the heat of battle, bad calls can be called out. If it was unwarranted disrespect however, 10 lashes in public and a 3-month dock in wages would be appropriate.
I have had a couple hilarious examples of warranted disrespect to a superior officer.
1) I had my LT hit me in the chest with the barrel of his rifle while on a dismounted patrol. I snatched his weapon from him hit him in the chest with the butt of it and gave it to my platoon sgt. I told him he could have it back when he learned not to "flag" people. The PSG told the LT that I let him off light and not to pursue the issue.
2) I had a MAJ who kept interrupting me while I was treating a man with a bullet in his femoral artery. I told him (with all due respect) could you STFU and get out of my trama area. Again my PSG had my back (thankfully).
3) we got ambushed and were cut off from our lead trucks and I was asking for guidance from a buck sgt. He kept saying "um, uh". So I grabbed him by the helmet, told him that "um, uh" isn't a viable tactical strategy, and drove around the block to the rest of the platoon.
Those were the funniest, looking back now. I yelled at a LTC for not having wheelchair access at the hospital, but he was waaaaay cool and understood my stress and let it slide.
If it wasn't the middle of a combat zone then there would have been NO way I could have gotten away with it. But I did earn a rep in my company as a doc who stood up for his guys no matter what... And as a kick ass DM, but that is beside the point.
Combat medics get a lot more leeway than service support guys like me. :)
This is true, but you really have to earn that leeway. Let your guys know that you can do everything they do plus bring them home safe.
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"Whatever happened getting a good old fashioned ass whipping, and then getting your t-shirt and your hat tooken"....
But he's a merc, he's not exactly part of the disciple or the pack. It'd be like the sheriff or mayor got you flogged for calling him a bad name, other than standard law and payment/duties, the leaders can't inflict physical pain, I think so anyhow, it seems obscure.
Most advices here sound like something happening in a modern, patriotic, or permanent army unit, which doesn't sound like mercs at all. He's offering a service (killing) to a customer (army). Calling your boss a cunt doesn't really fit flogging unless perhaps it's a royalty and you're his subject.
"Watch Full Metal Jacket and A Few Good Men."
Those don't really fit because it's a law-enforced army unit for a country. If it was about a mercenary not agreeing with a General, they wouldn't humiliate or flog him, but terminate his contract and his reputation might take a hit.
Man, now I want to hear those stories!After 7 years in the army, I would say wall to wall counseling. Honestly though, I have caused out a Maj as a SPC before. In the heat of battle, bad calls can be called out. If it was unwarranted disrespect however, 10 lashes in public and a 3-month dock in wages would be appropriate.
I have had a couple hilarious examples of warranted disrespect to a superior officer.
1) I had my LT hit me in the chest with the barrel of his rifle while on a dismounted patrol. I snatched his weapon from him hit him in the chest with the butt of it and gave it to my platoon sgt. I told him he could have it back when he learned not to "flag" people. The PSG told the LT that I let him off light and not to pursue the issue.
2) I had a MAJ who kept interrupting me while I was treating a man with a bullet in his femoral artery. I told him (with all due respect) could you STFU and get out of my trama area. Again my PSG had my back (thankfully).
3) we got ambushed and were cut off from our lead trucks and I was asking for guidance from a buck sgt. He kept saying "um, uh". So I grabbed him by the helmet, told him that "um, uh" isn't a viable tactical strategy, and drove around the block to the rest of the platoon.
Those were the funniest, looking back now. I yelled at a LTC for not having wheelchair access at the hospital, but he was waaaaay cool and understood my stress and let it slide.
If it wasn't the middle of a combat zone then there would have been NO way I could have gotten away with it. But I did earn a rep in my company as a doc who stood up for his guys no matter what... And as a kick ass DM, but that is beside the point.
Those are really cool stories... I feel the urge to make a combat Cleric based on them, if you don't mind. It'd make a good pair for the Ranger based on my cousin's army stories.
Feel free, just make sure I get a high charisma/intimidate! I kinda saw myself as a pal/ bard.
It seems like the merc in question didn't cuss out the commander of the army they were contracted out to but the actual commander of the merceneary army that he is a part of. I guess the punishment would depend on how you established the merecenary force. Are they more professional? Or are they just a collection of anybody the commander could find to sign on?
The army is a professional mercenary army; they're currently under contract to engage in enemy forces protecting a city that the contracting entity wants to liberate. The army does not owe allegience to any particular sovereign state. The PCs are freelancers who are effectively sub-contracted by the mercenary army to handle specific jobs.
This is true, but you really have to earn that leeway. Let your guys know that you can do everything they do plus bring them home safe.
You've now given me a devilishly wonderful idea on how to handle the situation. *evil grin*
(Also, your stories are great and kind of blew my mind. I was in the USAF and feel that if I would've called my CO a "stupid c-nt" I would've received an Article 15 for my attitude. Then again, that's what life's like when you're stationed CONUS and not actively supporting a mission.)
Go a step above "dock in pay":
Show the PCs other units getting "combat bonuses" and show that their bonus (preferably in the form of a useful magic item or signifcant amount of gold) is not to be paid because the PC couldn't watch their mouth. Have other NPCs offer to assist the rest of the group in throwing a "blanket party" for the offending PC. Make sure that any NPC healers they encounter do not heal them or heal them last and least.
-TimD
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This actually happened in a game i was playing before except different words were used and the person being verbally assaulted was a Commander. I, DMing the Commander, had the player in question bound in front of all the party and soldiers and proceeded to cut the characters tongue off for all to know that those that cant use there tongue respectfully will not have a tongue at all and announced that this was there one and only warning for the stupidity of what should be common knowledge being to respect all those that are of higher rank and those that are making sure that they are paid for there participation.
Unga Bunga?
Was it witnessed by anyone important?
Does the common soldier know this happened? (ie: affect morale and discipline)If not publicly known:
*Gets called into commander's office, alone**after a bit of small talk*
"Don't let it happen again. Otherwise I can't ignore it."If witnessed by common soldiers:
*Gets called into commander's office, alone*"We have a problem. Not that I appreciate what you called me and I know it won't happen again.... right? But it's becoming public knowledge and it's affecting morale. What do you suggest?"
Have the player become part of the solution.
Imposing in-character discipline as it would happen in RL is generally a recipe for disaster (unless you want to generate antagonism, like the SS AP). Sadly,RP a hierarchy-based situation like this is frequently seen a railroading or forcing someone to play a certain way. It's a problem I noticed with military-type RPGs (Robotech,Mechwarrior, some aspects of Rifts). Only people who were in military reserves and such played into it properly. Many gamers emulate anti-authority figures...
I'm going to second this.
When it comes to punishments in game like this, you have to be careful of the fine line between wanting to punish the character and wanting to punish the player.
This could be a great opportunity to get the PCs involved in the game in other ways besides combat, and darkwarriorkarg brings up some good ideas.
@Xexy: good, glad I didn't completely de-rail your thread. And for the record, if I tried to do this CONUS, then I would have been nailed to the wall. In combat though, leaders and followers both need to earn respect and show themselves to be respectable. I didn't like everyone that I fought beside, but I never let them down either. Cursing someone out while you are covering their *ss is better than being nice to someone and letting them get mowed down...
I'd probably let them off, as mercernaries they aren't really expected to be disciplined or even necessarily respectful.
I'd probably equate them more to the crew from Firefly. You've got your laws and what not over in your army but you need a job done you call them in and they take care of it but they don't lick your boots along the way or kiss ass because that isn't their job.
Besides if they are necessary even the commander isn't going to want to ruin things by risking antagonizing them. What is more important to your army, that you maintain the loyalty of your special forces/assassination squad, or that you make sure that people don't talk s%*~ about you?
Hessian mercenaries taught American colonial armies the fundamentals of organization and discipline that are the cornerstone of what is now the greatest armed forces on earth. Food for thought.
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Frustrating the NPC patron is the time honored tradition of PC adventurers. I am pretty certain our CotCT group had Cressidia Croft's hair turn grey by the end of the AP with our shenanigans (we went around announcing ourselves as the secret police, offered us a free weapon from the armory and cut to my 10 str rogue dragging out a ballista five feet at a time...)
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I'm assuming the character was being RPed normally during this incident; after all, playing a badmouth PC isn't naughty. So the punishment should be IC; the player did nothing wrong, the PC just made a bad call.
I like latrine duty. It punishes the PC, but not so much the player. It may also provide grounds for further roleplaying/IC grumbling.
From an IC perspective, it's also punishment fitting the crime. The PC said some dirty things, so now he gets to do some dirty things. Actually flogging mercenaries would be a risky move for the commander; that might drive them over the edge. Latrine duty seems proportional; nobody expects mercenaries to be the nicest kind of peoples, but they do have to acknowledge the authority of the ordinary officers. It's a good way to put someone in their place.
Note that it's also a warning: next time the punishment will be more severe. This is important communication towards the player: there are IC boundaries, and crossing them will cause you trouble.
After the PC has completed latrine duty, he and his entire party would be warned; next time it's either latrine duty for the whole party (peer pressure not to screw up), or corporal punishment.
I think an aspect you need to pay attention here is the PC's submission. Punishment is about the offender acknowledging that the authority is superior; officers need to maintain order after all. If the PC submits without grumbling too lightly, then this will all be forgotten afterwards. But if he makes a scene then relations with the army will sour. But he either has to accept the punishment, or refuse it. If he refuses, then that's the end of their term of employment, because an army can't allow people to refuse orders like that.
Well, I am thinking Aliens 4...
Let me take the position of the devils advocate.
If a commander tried anything with my mercenary character, I would probably, being a mercenary, make sure the commander was killed and that it was known to everybody in the army that messing with me means painful and humiliating death.
If the commander would even mentioned this incident, I would loose respect for the commander, see her as weak, and immediately challenge her authority, either have her back down, or provoke a fight that I had rigged to win.
If the commander needs to establish authority over the character in a way that make the character respect her, not frag her, it has to be by either besting the character in the characters context and values, or by having the character respect and admire the commander by strong and cool actions.
Question: Why did the PC call her a cunt?
If the commander would even mentioned this incident, I would loose respect for the commander, see her as weak, and immediately challenge her authority, either have her back down, or provoke a fight that I had rigged to win.So you insult a commander, and if he objects, you lose respect for him?
Roleplaying a mercenary as in Aliens Ressurection. I (in this role) am part of a bunch with no loyalty to the commander, anti-authoritarian, and I have completely different values than the commander. It would be completely void for the commander to discipline me, because I would react with hatres and vengeance, not submission, as the commander would like. The commander would loose a problem solving unit, not gain a set of soldiers. If the mercenaries where soldiers, hey would not fill the operational niche in the first place.
A high level commander would understand this. Don't play a Marshal as an emotional captain, but instead as a highly intelligent and empathic stone cold pragmatist.
Generals are ENTJ, captains are ENFJ, if that means anything to you (MBTI). Lower ranking officers are much more impulsive and emotionally driven, which also gives the best display for the subordinates.
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Well, I am thinking Aliens 4...
Let me take the position of the devils advocate.
If a commander tried anything with my mercenary character, I would probably, being a mercenary, make sure the commander was killed and that it was known to everybody in the army that messing with me means painful and humiliating death.
If the commander would even mentioned this incident, I would loose respect for the commander, see her as weak, and immediately challenge her authority, either have her back down, or provoke a fight that I had rigged to win.
If the commander needs to establish authority over the character in a way that make the character respect her, not frag her, it has to be by either besting the character in the characters context and values, or by having the character respect and admire the commander by strong and cool actions.
You are automatically discredited for using aliens 4 as an example.
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@Tandriniel: but in most armies, you're better off without mercenaries like that; they undermine discipline among the rank and file troops. Also, sounds rather unreliable.
I mean, it can be fun playing the badass mercenary, but at some point the reasonable thing for the army to do is to kill you all. And being an army, they probably can. When will they do so? As soon as you're not so useful anymore; anywhere between your last mission and payday for example.
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Reprimand and a couple of days of some menial, crappy duty. Happened to me during my younger, more impulsive days on deployment. Spent a week of my off hours stacking sandbags and got chewed out by the Warrant Officer in question [granted, he was overreacting, and the Captain stepped in on my side].