So in an upcoming game i am going to try something new. In this game I am detaching xp from leveling and instead want to use it instead as an alternate currency system. Thoughts so far have been extra feats, ability score boosts (limit to 20 maximum), and possibly bonus hero points (not sure if I am using these yet). I am looking for a good way to scale this as well as other possible rewards, possibly on an individual class basis.
I assume you're having your characters level at "story intervals" or every other session or whatnot? If that's the case then you could just use a regular XP progression (Slow, Medium, or Fast) and when they would "level up" instead they just get to choose between your choices. (I.E. 1 Feat, 1 Ability score increase, 1d4-1 Hero Points)
Poker chips that are turned in for a reroll? But, you're looking for something a little meatier aren't you.
Also rewards could include:
Additional Skill points
Contacts
Traits (Though that comes with feats with that one feat)
"Campaign traits" where you could say that a player who slayed many orcs could 'purchase' the ability to be know as "Orc slayer" and gain a +2 Intimidate vs orcs or something.
etc.
Also rewards could include:
Additional Skill points
Contacts
Traits (Though that comes with feats with that one feat)
"Campaign traits" where you could say that a player who slayed many orcs could 'purchase' the ability to be know as "Orc slayer" and gain a +2 Intimidate vs orcs or something.
etc.
nice that's exactly the kinda stuff i am looking for.
At ciaran true but who says you only would get one reroll. ;)
A second look at the reroll option has me thinking. A single reroll is major at low levels when weapon damage and health are closer together but less impressive later. With that in mind I propose an increasing number of rerolls. maybe 1 additional reroll at every third pseudo level?
A second shot at a saving throw is always welcome! And there are more of those at higher levels than at lower.
Another option, and this one would need to be done with a very open mind, but a decent look at power creep (Then again, you are allowing additional options as is, so you're probably already having a higher powered game) is allowing certain class abilities from other classes.
This wouldn't be like "I purchase wizards spellcasting" and now your fighter is effectively God.
But more like the ability to get Rogue Talents, or +1D6 Sneak Attack (Maximum level as 'though' you were a rogue, so no rogue double sneak attack!), or Rage Powers (As long as you allowed a player to purchase a significantly weaker rage in the first place)
Again I would take care to limit how powerful you allow it, Perhaps you can only take abilities as though you qualified as 1/2 level in that class. And all prereqs and such apply. But it's something to work out. And something that might let your players have a bit of fun playing a Barbarian that can vanish using ninja tricks. Or a Cleric that has 2 1st level Wizard spell slots.
Something to look into.
Another option, and this one would need to be done with a very open mind, but a decent look at power creep (Then again, you are allowing additional options as is, so you're probably already having a higher powered game) is allowing certain class abilities from other classes.
This wouldn't be like "I purchase wizards spellcasting" and now your fighter is effectively God.
But more like the ability to get Rogue Talents, or +1D6 Sneak Attack (Maximum level as 'though' you were a rogue, so no rogue double sneak attack!), or Rage Powers (As long as you allowed a player to purchase a significantly weaker rage in the first place)Again I would take care to limit how powerful you allow it, Perhaps you can only take abilities as though you qualified as 1/2 level in that class. And all prereqs and such apply. But it's something to work out. And something that might let your players have a bit of fun playing a Barbarian that can vanish using ninja tricks. Or a Cleric that has 2 1st level Wizard spell slots.
Something to look into.
hmm worth contemplating, though i might restrict what at which levels, another thought is to increase existing class features similar to the favored class method but as a full increase.
You could limit it to what I've been calling "Tertiary Tier" abilities. Things that are in no way class defining features, but that are still useful. Things like Poison/Disease Resistance/Immunity (make it scale like an Alchemists for both so they have to buy it multiple times so it goes from a +2/4/6 on saving throws to a full Immunity), abilities that give +X To Saving Throws against Y (like Still Mind and others like it), Evasion, Limited Use Attacks (like Stunning Fist, though that's technically a Feat), etc.
hmm should probably make a chart or something.
started a google doc.
here
this should be a good start.
eep, better bump
I would make a list of the class abilities I am willing to let other classes grab, and set them up with prerequisites, just like feats. Even if you break them up into the tier system.
What would be the prereq for 1 level of arcane magic (wiz or sor)? Probably a basic magic feat of some sort. That way your fighter with a couple of spell levels worth of wiz is not actually broken.
I would probably also allow some way to bump up defenses, AC and Saves specifically (if it is a temporary bump, maybe 3rd tier?). It would be cheap in the low end (such as crappy saves) but would become exponentially expensive to keep making it better.
And since they are spending experience in some capacity, perhaps the limited ability to make magic items infused with their essence, rather than actual magic?
I would make a list of the class abilities I am willing to let other classes grab, and set them up with prerequisites, just like feats. Even if you break them up into the tier system.
What would be the prereq for 1 level of arcane magic (wiz or sor)? Probably a basic magic feat of some sort. That way your fighter with a couple of spell levels worth of wiz is not actually broken.
I would probably also allow some way to bump up defenses, AC and Saves specifically (if it is a temporary bump, maybe 3rd tier?). It would be cheap in the low end (such as crappy saves) but would become exponentially expensive to keep making it better.
And since they are spending experience in some capacity, perhaps the limited ability to make magic items infused with their essence, rather than actual magic?
noted and I will start making a list of class abilities and prereqs, though i think most will be skills. What I am still mulling over though is what actually qualifies as tertiary ability? Some are obvious like poison resist/immunity, others like rage powers I am on the fence about. I plan on only allowing a 1 time buy of primary class abilities, so that fighter in question would be limited number of spells a spellcaster gets at first level. Delayed caster progression spell lists can only be chosen at the corresponding advancement, so those that desire paladin spells would have to wait till advancement 4 to cast. Also all are limited to casting in the method of the chosen class, and use their total character level as their caster level. I do plan on allowing classes to take their own class abilities for advancements. This would allow extra sneak attack, extra rage rounds, more rouge talent/ rage powers(?), extra smite, what have you.
Don't forget to specify what happens with arcane spell failure (armor).
Can casters get spells sooner through this system? are people going to qualify for stuff earlier? stuff to think about.
Don't forget to specify what happens with arcane spell failure (armor).
Can casters get spells sooner through this system? are people going to qualify for stuff earlier? stuff to think about.
well i already included in the description that you may never have more advancements than levels if that's you mean. you must designate what class you cast from and have the same limits of that class for casting. i consider the spells feature to be a singular reward with multiple options, so it may only be taken once.
no, I meant, can a 4th level wizard take "wizard arcane casting" as a bonus ability, and effectively be a 5th level caster (3rd level spells, more lower level spells)? and now he qualifies for many prestige classes ahead of time.
no, I meant, can a 4th level wizard take "wizard arcane casting" as a bonus ability, and effectively be a 5th level caster (3rd level spells, more lower level spells)? and now he qualifies for many prestige classes ahead of time.
oh i see, no I was not going to have that as an addendum to the ability, a wizard who chooses the spells reward and picks wizard will simply get extra spells from 1st level. I planned on specifically stating in the abilities description if it stacks, and in what ways.
Weapon Proficiency feats are always nice, or Skill Focus feats, those feats that there's a lot of, but don't have a major impact. With new weapons coming out all the time, it might be nice to offer the non-fighter classes a chance to use a fancy new Katana or a Boomerang.
Contacts are another, like a caster in town X, or small otherwordly creatures like Imps and Fairies to perhaps scout for a few hours, or show a safe haven. Make them go "Hey, listen!" for the luls.
There's a feat, Equipment Trick I believe, gives new uses to Scabbards, Shields, Ropes and Sunrods. You could hand one of those uses as a Trick.
Example: Sword and board paladin levels up, he decides to take the Shield Toss trick, now able to toss his shield at opponent's feet trying to trip him. The shield stays where he hits, turning the square into difficult terrain till picked up.
Weapon Proficiency feats are always nice, or Skill Focus feats, those feats that there's a lot of, but don't have a major impact. With new weapons coming out all the time, it might be nice to offer the non-fighter classes a chance to use a fancy new Katana or a Boomerang.
Contacts are another, like a caster in town X, or small otherwordly creatures like Imps and Fairies to perhaps scout for a few hours, or show a safe haven. Make them go "Hey, listen!" for the luls.
There's a feat, Equipment Trick I believe, gives new uses to Scabbards, Shields, Ropes and Sunrods. You could hand one of those uses as a Trick.
Example: Sword and board paladin levels up, he decides to take the Shield Toss trick, now able to toss his shield at opponent's feet trying to trip him. The shield stays where he hits, turning the square into difficult terrain till picked up.
noted and adding to the rough draft, though i kinda would like to know how to regulate the contacts advancement. oh and possible would to call advancements by something else, Boon maybe?
give contacts levels. keep it simple, like level 1 to 5. Remember that contacts have you as a contact at the same level you have them. So expect a call from time to time asking for a favor that is the equivalent of what they can do for you.
1= barely to somewhat useful contact. no more than level 4. A bartender you know well. A younger sibling who can get you in to his or her job location. He may still not help you, but will at least listen to your issues before he dismisses it. Still expects payment.
2= somewhat useful contact. no more than level 8. An innkeeper you worked with for years, a favorite uncle with a moderately successful business. An arms dealer you grew up with. Depending on what you are asking for, you have to drop some cash.
3= useful contact. no more than level 12. Someone with decent class skill, or specialized in something you can benefit from, or a small militia, or school ties of some sort. Someone you can trust to have your back in bad situations. You still have to pay them for the big thing, but they will show up to back you up short of suicidal situations, and even then, if the money is right, for you, they might. A custom weapon maker, a good fence, a small company/community/society, a mercenary buddy, a caster or psychic of moderate power.
4= a very useful contact. no more than level 16. A successful parent, a mentor, a moderate company/community/society, a powerful guild, or the leader of something similar. A moderate politician. When S*** hits the fan, you can count on them being there. You can call powerful favors at the drop of a dime and deal with the consequences later. Suicidal situations are met side by side. They can call powerful favors in your behalf.
5= an extremely useful contact. no more than level 20. A powerful politician, potentially even a ruler. A wizard of extreme power. A powerful militia, or national/global power. You can request powerful magics or items. Funds can appear from nowhere if you require it. Rare for most to ever see, and should require some major role playing beyond just the cost of gaining this ability.
Edit: Epiphany! X amount of Exp can be changed into points that fill Boon Pool.
Boons:
Contacts Pool(ex): Each week you gain 5gp x total level worth of gold to spend on Services(own tab in equipment). Any left over money is lost at the start of the new week as a new Contacts Pool is rolled.
This may be taken three more times, each increasing the pool by +5gp weekly.
Proficiency Training(ex): By spending X amount of time with a proficient user who's at least Friendly, you can train with him/her to gain proficiency in a single weapon.
This may be taken multiple times, each time applying to a new weapon. Exotic weapons cost two Boon points
Custom Artisan(ex): For each Boon Point spent, you may reduce the price of an item specifically crafted for you by X. This may be spent repeteadly as long as the item is being crafted. This reduction does not affect crafting in any way, when the item is done, the saved sum is then returned to you.
Scribe's Favour(ex): By spending a Boon point, you may count a spell you're copying over from a Scribe/NPC as one level lower(minimum one) to determinate the cost and amount of time needed. The spell still retains it's original level for all other purposes. By spending more points, you may further lower the spell level.
boon pool definitely has potential without being game breaking, may adapt that instead. apologies to anyone waiting for a doc update, as i am at work and only have a brief time to get on my laptop before i get busy again.
I had a system like this before where my players got an xp pool so they can spend it on training and buy feats and abilities. I like this method better. Looking forward to seeing how it unfolds.
finally got the chance to update the doc, everyone have at it. P.S. new rewards are always welcome.
My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to bump.
falcon bump
OK, gonna try this one more time for feedback.
ok new month, lets try for redemption...(gulps)...bump
The best idea I can think of isn't to separate the exp system from leveling but to give it tiers. Normally, it takes exactly the same experience to learn a level of a studied class like Wizard, Cleric, or Paladin as it takes to learn a self-taught class like Fighter or an intuitive class like Rogue. Make studied classes cost more exp than self-taught and intuitive classes cost less.
the problem I can see, those studied classes would include the monk (one of the worst) and the intuitive include the barbarian and sorcerer (two of the best). this would create some disparity. it is important to note that this system is based on roleplay exp awards, not combat. If you were to do combat however, I would definately differentiate exp tracks based on the number of ability scores the class needs to function.
The best idea I can think of isn't to separate the exp system from leveling but to give it tiers. Normally, it takes exactly the same experience to learn a level of a studied class like Wizard, Cleric, or Paladin as it takes to learn a self-taught class like Fighter or an intuitive class like Rogue. Make studied classes cost more exp than self-taught and intuitive classes cost less.
the problem I can see, those studied classes would include the monk (one of the worst) and the intuitive include the barbarian and sorcerer (two of the best). this would create some disparity. it is important to note that this system is based on roleplay exp awards, not combat. If you were to do combat however, I would definitely differentiate exp tracks based on the number of ability scores the class needs to function.
Marvel Super Heroes. Throw out levels altogether and make everything the player could ever get for their character a purchaseable thing, like MSH did with Karma Points. Then have them save up and buy the things that come up at different levels.
Is something a Level 2 ability in a class/archetype/PrC? then assign it an EXP cost; say, 500 XP for 1st level, 1000 for 2nd, 2000 for 3rd, etc.
First level Fighter wants wizard cantrips? Fine; that'll be 500XP sucker. Now you can hurl rays of frost to your hearts content.
For other things like skill ranks, feats and stat advancement, create a static one-time fee to represent the static nature of everone earning those at a specific time. For example: gain a skill rank; 100 xp, gain a HD; 400 xp, gain a feat; 600 xp, gain a stat advancement: 800 xp.
Totally spitballing here, but is THIS what you're looking for?
Marvel Super Heroes. Throw out levels altogether and make everything the player could ever get for their character a purchaseable thing, like MSH did with Karma Points. Then have them save up and buy the things that come up at different levels.
Is something a Level 2 ability in a class/archetype/PrC? then assign it an EXP cost; say, 500 XP for 1st level, 1000 for 2nd, 2000 for 3rd, etc.
First level Fighter wants wizard cantrips? Fine; that'll be 500XP sucker. Now you can hurl rays of frost to your hearts content.
For other things like skill ranks, feats and stat advancement, create a static one-time fee to represent the static nature of everone earning those at a specific time. For example: gain a skill rank; 100 xp, gain a HD; 400 xp, gain a feat; 600 xp, gain a stat advancement: 800 xp.
Totally spitballing here, but is THIS what you're looking for?
not really, though awesome (and kinda ironic since I JUST bought mutants and materminds hero handbook) I actually made a google doc further up.
here it is again
What's "X" with the artisan? Also do you spend for a single artisan over and over to reduce the cost way down, or can you have, say, one guy crafting some reduced cost armor, another guy working on a weapon, etc?
All in all this looks very cool. What about skill training? You buy yourself the equivalent of a +2 trait bonus to a single skill for a set amount of Boon spent?
Also how about BIG material purchases? For example: 2 boon points = a unique animal mount (trained lion?); 3 points = a flying mount; 4 points = a tricked out vehicle; and then 5, 6, and 7 points buys a small, medium, or large domicile?
Again, just spitballing. The boon points look like rep (or Popularity in Marvel Super Heroes :) ) so it got me thinking: what can you use your rep for?
What's "X" with the artisan? Also do you spend for a single artisan over and over to reduce the cost way down, or can you have, say, one guy crafting some reduced cost armor, another guy working on a weapon, etc?
All in all this looks very cool. What about skill training? You buy yourself the equivalent of a +2 trait bonus to a single skill for a set amount of Boon spent?
Also how about BIG material purchases? For example: 2 boon points = a unique animal mount (trained lion?); 3 points = a flying mount; 4 points = a tricked out vehicle; and then 5, 6, and 7 points buys a small, medium, or large domicile?
Again, just spitballing. The boon points look like rep (or Popularity in Marvel Super Heroes :) ) so it got me thinking: what can you use your rep for?
x is for a still to be determined variable. as for skill training, I like it though it needs to balanced against the feat purchase reward(due to skill focus). it will probably be 1 point per skill bonus, cant a skill more than twice or something. that last one is cool too, and maybe should be called property, holding, etc. though i think the mounts should use a flat cost based on CR. keep in mind a mount should be a heavy investment, as higher level ones can be quote powerful. It does make me want to get a fiendish dragon horse though. Ill name him Hidalgo.
Heh; +5 Vigo toaster.
But w/the mounts maybe you could get a discount on the training, or maybe for every 4 pts you spend on the mount it gets an extra pt of Int and thus extra tricks.
Whaever; frankly I just really like the concept!
It looks rather interesting. One thing I picked up is with
Conditioning(ex): You may raise one of your ability scores by one via spending a number of boon points equal to the desired ability score - 10. Example to raise constitution from 15 to 16 costs 6 boon points.
Currently If your ability score is less than 10 it would cost negative or zero boon points to increase. e.g. 9->10 is 10-10=0 and 8->9 is 9-10=-1 and so on if I understand what you have correctly. I guess you would need at lease a clause stating minimum 1 boon point per increase.
It looks rather interesting. One thing I picked up is with
Conditioning(ex): You may raise one of your ability scores by one via spending a number of boon points equal to the desired ability score - 10. Example to raise constitution from 15 to 16 costs 6 boon points.Currently If your ability score is less than 10 it would cost negative or zero boon points to increase. e.g. 9->10 is 10-10=0 and 8->9 is 9-10=-1 and so on if I understand what you have correctly. I guess you would need at lease a clause stating minimum 1 boon point per increase.
alright fixed, now working on the mounts thing.
edit: also added a clause for ability scores 8 or less.
You could spend XP to build NPC contacts and resources. Kinda like a cohort and leadership, but it would be an NPC that the whole group could use. Say you all buy a merchant who lvls with the group so to speak, and can act as a special merchant who gives discounts and procures specific items at cost for the PCs, can fence items as needed, and provide the PCs with a loyal friend and contact to help them out with whatever they may need... TPK? Well now you have someone with a vested interest and the funds to find and Rez you.
You could also do side missions to help your NPC out in some way or the other, and give them some incentive to come to there rescue if a BBEG abducts people close to you.
You could spend XP to build NPC contacts and resources. Kinda like a cohort and leadership, but it would be an NPC that the whole group could use. Say you all buy a merchant who lvls with the group so to speak, and can act as a special merchant who gives discounts and procures specific items at cost for the PCs, can fence items as needed, and provide the PCs with a loyal friend and contact to help them out with whatever they may need... TPK? Well now you have someone with a vested interest and the funds to find and Rez you.
You could also do side missions to help your NPC out in some way or the other, and give them some incentive to come to there rescue if a BBEG abducts people close to you.
that sorta is already accomplished with the contacts pool in terms of utility. though adding an npc clause might be nice.
would 100 gp per boon spent be too much/little per cost of mount? you could get a pony, horse, etc., for the cost of a single point though. you would still be limited to the purchase of a single mount so no herds of combat trained horses at 10th level.
now I am thinking of just rolling the mount thing into the contacts pool as another example of what you can do with it(keep in mind that there is nothing that says you can't add your personal money towards purchases made with it). however would spending a large number of boon points to increase the amount of "catchup levels" a level adjusted character gets, up to 1/4 their level? kinda thinking outside the box with that one.
I'm looking at the document, and I think Conditioning and Study are a bit strong or strange.
I may be misunderstanding, but let me give you some examples:
Level 1, I get a boon point. I raise my dumpstat from 7 to 9.
Level 2, I do the same again, dumpstat goes from 9 to 11.
That seems a bit much to me.
Study allows you to remove prerequisites. That means you can get feats without the class, race, or level needed. At level four I could have Improved Eldritch Heritage, Aspect of the Beast, or Improved Two Weapon Fighting. This can range from powerful to bizzare.
I'm looking at the document, and I think Conditioning and Study are a bit strong or strange.
I may be misunderstanding, but let me give you some examples:
Level 1, I get a boon point. I raise my dumpstat from 7 to 9.
Level 2, I do the same again, dumpstat goes from 9 to 11.
That seems a bit much to me.Study allows you to remove prerequisites. That means you can get feats without the class, race, or level needed. At level four I could have Improved Eldritch Heritage, Aspect of the Beast, or Improved Two Weapon Fighting. This can range from powerful to bizzare.
remember only at 8 or below do you get to raise a stat 2 points, so 9 would be raised to 10 (the minimum 1 clause).
i do agree about a feat removing a previous feat for prereqs is a bit wonky, so ill put a restriction in for that, but is no small investment for a bonus feat( at level 4, removing a single prereq cost all points earned so far)
a fair reminder, this system is built on the concept of reward based exp, not combat. this system was built to provide a reward basis in story based leveling. it is entirely possible that when you finally reach boon advancement 4, you could be a very high level.
remember only at 8 or below do you get to raise a stat 2 points, so 9 would be raised to 10 (the minimum 1 clause).
Ah right.
a fair reminder, this system is built on the concept of reward based exp, not combat. this system was built to provide a reward basis in story based leveling. it is entirely possible that when you finally reach boon advancement 4, you could be a very high level.
I don't understand. From the document you linked us to:
"Players gain points for the boon pool by “leveling” along the xp track. levels 1-6 award 1 boon point, levels 7-12 award 2 boon points, levels 13-18 award 3 boon points, levels 19 and 20 award 4 boon points."So when you get a 4th boon point, you will be level 4, no?
I don't understand. From the document you linked us to:
"Players gain points for the boon pool by “leveling” along the xp track. levels 1-6 award 1 boon point, levels 7-12 award 2 boon points, levels 13-18 award 3 boon points, levels 19 and 20 award 4 boon points."
So when you get a 4th boon point, you will be level 4, no?
right but this leveling system was built for gms who used predetermined leveling points (see introduction) as a means of rewarding players and still use "bonus exp" though I do mention in the alternate rules that this system can be used to up the power of the game by conjoining it to actual player levels.
whoops i accidentally deleted that part about not having more psuedo levels than player levels, fixed.
Ah, so the levels associated with boons are entirely separate from class levels?
Ah, so the levels associated with boons are entirely separate from class levels?
correct, I used the term advancement before in a previous incarnation, maybe I should bring that back. Then again Boon Level doesn't seem too unclear does it?
edit: I wonder what the trait reward should be called?