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Pendagast and kmal2t (and anyone else who wants to play) let's get beyond the theorycrafting and attempts to rhetorically one-up each other. I'll lay out a situation for you and you tell me how you would actually rule on it. Then we can see how close we are to each other.
I have already described the magic item shops in my game, and how I typically deal with the availability of items. The level 8 party I am GMing recently returned from a fairly long series of encounters away from town and collected some loot, including gold, gems and some magic items. They returned to town and "went shopping". This included heading to the local magic shop.
Now, I know that you two oppose the concept of magic shops. But you've also said that you have ways of granting the odd boon to your players' characters too. So let's just go through what the players asked for and see how you would handle it.
The party came back to town with the following looted magic items they did not want, and attempted to trade or sell them. Due to an impending invasion and their being sent on an urgent mission, they only had one day to resupply. Here is what they had to sell/trade:
+1 flaming longspear
+1 bow
Robe of many thingsThey also had several thousand gold worth of coins and gems.
They wanted to do the following:
Upgrade a +1 sword to a +2 sword
Purchase an immovable rod
Upgrade plate armor from +1 to +2
Purchase a wand of cure light woundsHow would you respond to those requests?
(EDIT: the town in question is a fairly good sized town, some 15,000 people live in the town's taxable area. It's a major trading center with lots of goods moving through the town on a daily basis.)
one more time, im NOT opposed to magic shops.
anyway...one day is rough.
In my campaigns it's easy to sell magic items, everyone wants them they are rare, someone has the money, but not every tom dick and harry.It would be unlikely they would find a single vendor with enough on hand cash to buy...
Pend: You touched on a great point. Why would magic item shops always have the cash on hand to actually buy your stuff. I like how Skyrim does it. If the vendor doesn't have enough cash on hand then he can't buy it from you until he makes more money.
In 3.x there were limits to how much you could sell in a settlement. But the limits in 3.x for buying were much higher than in PF, but you can actually used the same mechanics for PF without much issue (their selling limits would just be lower as well).
In 3.x there were limits to how much you could sell in a settlement. But the limits in 3.x for buying were much higher than in PF, but you can actually used the same mechanics for PF without much issue (their selling limits would just be lower as well).
Which is to say the exact same mechanics already exist in pathfinder and are still in use.
Heh. Fuhrer. That is an apt description of my old GM.
I did finally go elsewhere. It took a long time, because 1) The need for power and control over others in the GM developed slowly over a long time, so it was difficult to see it grow; and 2) they were my friends of nearly 15 years. It's hard to leave old friends. It hurt having to do so.
I have a new group now. They are good people. :)
For me, being the GM is a choice with the knowledge that I will be prepping a lot ahead of time. But that doesn't give me the right to be a dictator over the group. It's a group game and it should be the whole group (GM and the players) who make the decisions. So that means that when the entire group wants to play a 40 point buy game, then that's what they play (and someone will volunteer to be the GM of that game). At the very least, that's how our group plays and that's the way I like it.
You do realize that there is a middle ground between the GM as dictator, and the PCs as dictator.
Normally in our group, when a rules question comes up, we discuss and then ask the GM to make a decision. Sometimes the ruling is in the PCs favor, sometimes not. We then continue on. He is not treating us like children, we have an adult discussion, then he decides, because he is the GM and for the game the arbiter of the rules.
When we start a campaign, the GM states what is allowed (classes and races) and how many point buy for the character, along with anything else forbidden. Again this isn't treating the players like children, the GM is doing nearly all the work, so he gets to make those decisions. If the players don't find them acceptable, then someone else can propose a campaign.
@ Pend: I'd like to commend you (no sarcasm, I'm actually thanking you) for summing up the anti-magic shoppe frustration in that it's not about the shop, but the menu. This statement helps immensely. I have 4 players in my game and none are opposed to buying magic, they just don't want the valu-mart experience while doing it.
Now on that point I do use pre-rolling or random rolls for on the spot requests. Some examples: my party's wizard gave me a list during some down time of spells he'd like to see if arcanists in the city had and if they'd be willing to sell; none of them were very shocking. I took the list, asked him to give me a Diplomacy for an extended gather info session and rolled some random checks of my own. He ended up getting 4 of the 8 spells he was after; one of them he missed was burning hands. I knew the next game they'd be fighting cold cretures with a weakness for fire but the roll didn't come up, so he was reduced to acid splashing in the fight. se la vie
Also the dwarf of the party uses a warhammer. Recently they stumbled upon a small dwarven hall in the wilderness; they don't like people knowing about them b/cause they have a small vein of mithril they don't want publicized. Anyway, this dwarf has a trait that means he's descended from heroes; couple that with winning a drinking game and rolling some pretty decent Diplomacy rolls and these wilderness dwarves were loving the PC. That's when they offered to sell him some of their wares; I'd pre-rolled some items and they had a mithril tower shield +1 and a mithril axe +1, neither of which anyone in the party wanted, so they declined. The party did however jot down "Dwarves of Frostbeard Falls - mithril items" in their campaign notes for later use.
I don't know about other games or GMs as I haven't played that much outside my own gaming groups over the years, but I have generally tried to manage the expectations of my players w/a bit of randomness; control the "menu" a tad as Pendagast puts it. I agree that it kind of smacks of exceptional unreality that JUST at the moment you need an amulet of mighty fists to stay viable in combat or an agile hand axe to fit your build, suddenly one appears for you.
Because of that though, I've seen 2 things from my players: they either seek out sources for their items - side quests, making it themselves, finding specific crafters, etc. or when they find something somewhat comparable they shift their build.
For example I had a player a couple games ago, a paladin, who was heavily armored amid a party of rogues, wizards, lightly armored clerics and a barbarian. Every fight scene she lagged 20' behind if the BBEG was a distance at the start and if there was rough terrain... forget about it. The player asked me during some downtime if there was anywhere in town to get a ring of free action or boots of speed or something.
I rolled and told the player no, but then made him roll for his female paladin using her Profession: librarian skill (she was maintaining the library of a fighting school in town). She pulled off a great roll so she found a history and some details on a legendary suit of armor - leather and cloth, alchemically treated then enchanted with strong magics to give it the general appearance and protection of plate mail but with much more flexibility. Further it was elven, meaning it would permit her to cross rough terrain at her normal speed.
The player jotted this all down happily and the next game session I worked the side quest into the main plot; by the end of that session I had a paladin who went from shiny half-plate bogging her down to a sleek, dark suit of +4 studded leather with free action. Sure, it COMPLETELY destroyed her WBL but I didn't care; the player was happy and he'd found this on his own, sought it out and earned it.
I guess my thing is the menu at the magic shoppe should be written by the GM, not dictated by the players, at least in my game. But the shop itself should stick around in some form.
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I get around the "infinite menu of items in shops" problem by applying a time requirement to purchases: my current version is 1 hour of shopping per 1,000 gp of the item. This covers the time to actually track down the specific item desired, and when you start to get into the 10's of thousands of gold (and thus 10's of hours of dedicated shopping time), the decision between getting the item and continuing the adventure becomes quite important to the players.
Plus I get to throw random NPC encounters in during the shopping expeditions, which is always fun.
The can of worms hast reopened. Woohooo.
Seriously though everybody handles this differently its a total ice cream flavor situation.
Our game treats it sort of like car dealerships. Tiny towns likely wont have one at all, but would have a garage for repairs. Small towns might have a dinky used car lot( potions, components, one or two items). A medium town should have a place to by new economy cars ( +1 or +2 ). But you would have to go to big city to have a car custom built or buy a lexus ( up to +4 and crafted items) and there are a handful of places on the planet you can buy a fararri(see: Avenger; Holy)
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If you're worried about finding the wrong weapon then how about asking the DM if you can take it somewhere and have the enchantment transferred to the appropriate weapon?
Most GMs I have had do not allow such transfers. Once a enchantment is laid, it can never be changed, only improved. I would allow it however.
Hmmm...I see this thread has ended up exactly where you'd expect.
Tone, people. It is possible to disagree without being d-bags.
The point of my example above was to show that the "magic item shop" does not imply a "menu" approach, nor does it mean that player characters get to walk in and purchase anything at any time for any reason.
In my example the following role playing issues came into play:
1. The magic item shop owner refused to purchase the +1 flaming spear, using the excuse that he did not have enough ready cash on that day. However, a sense motive from the party indicated some deception and further conversation indicated that the true reason was probably that the owner did not want to have a spear that had come from a dead demon.
2. The party explored other ways to trade or sell the spear which led them to meet with the royal wizard. This was an important plot point for reasons I won't go into here in case any player of mine happens to stumble into this thread. Knowing that the party tends to head to magic shops gives me, as the GM, a handy way to plan plot hooks like this.
3. The party had to go through a rather extensive role playing session with the royal wizard where they learned some valuable things about the wizard, their mission and the wizard's plans. They also had to haggle and negotiate with the wizard which allowed the party to use social skills and further develop the plot.
4. Due to the time sensitive nature of their mission, the party had to get creative about how to upgrade items. This led to more role playing with a guard captain which allowed me to develop a relationship between the party and an NPC, opening further plot hooks in the future.
5. Some of the items the party wanted were not available in the magic shop and they had to move forward without the item.
In the end I fail to see why people are so dismissive and snarky about magic shops. It seems to me that such an attitude is based on assumptions about tropes that "magic shops" imply that are not required and most GMs don't employ. I certainly don't.
The guidelines are actually pretty decent in my opinion. However, I only vaguely follow them and I don't roll dice so much as I make a judgment call on items based on my own idea of how my world's magic economy works.
As a final point, the existence of magic shops is pretty much a non-issue in my campaigns with my players. Most of the complaints I hear about magic item shops simply aren't true in my case.
1. Magic item shops don't reduce role play, they can actually enhance role play.
2. Magic item shops do not mean players "get what they want", nor does it mean there are shelves full of "orbs of awesome sauce". Magic item shops typically have some items, lack some items and more or less just facilitate the resupply and character development of the party much like a general store does.
3. Magic item shops do not automatically create a flood of magic stuff that is looted indiscriminately and ends up in the hands of street urchins, any more than a clothing store automatically means street urchins end up in tuxedos. There are laws, security and consequences to people's actions.
4. Magic item shops do not automatically turn the game into a MMORPG.
Anyway, I think that's been clearly demonstrated, but I have no doubt that the knee-jerk prejudices that exist will not be overcome simply through a demonstration that the prejudices are not necessarily accurate.
It's nice to have an actual example and to see that the way those arguing for either side would handle it is about the same.
If you haven't looked at the actual guidelines, assuming this is a Large City (10,001–25,000), everything they want falls under the 8,000gp limit and so would be available 75% of the time. Except the sword, which would be just over the limit. Which is pretty much how everyone treated it.
Expect, it wasn't treated like that. It was the Armor the dude had a issue with enhancing.
" The +1 sword upgrade to +2 was not possible to do in one day. The PC in question used diplomacy on a guard captain who had a +2 sword and managed to trade his +1 sword and an appropriate amount of cash (plus a tip) for the +2 sword. The guard agreed to upgrade to replace his sword. It is worth noting that the guard captain was aware that the party was heading on a dangerous quest and felt that the +2 sword was better going with the party since he could get a replacement (and make a bit of coin) in a couple of days.
The armor upgrade simply wasn't possible."
So yeah, you'd think the cheaper option would be okay, but no apparently.
This thread has convinced me to be more generous in my magic item shops.
Any time a PC has access to a significant trading town, I will let them buy whatever they can afford (apart from items I ban for balance reasons). They will not have to roll any dice or do any role playing. They will be able to get existing items upgraded provided there is sufficient time (1000gp per day).
My reasoning:
(1) It lets people play the characters they want to play without risking not having the tools they need. It makes this aspect of the game be all about player decision-making, not luck or GM whim. Players making interesting decisions is what gameplay is all about. (It's not what atmosphere is all about, but I'll deal with that separately.)
(2) It makes finding a hoard of gold more exciting - that gold can be turned into magic!
(3) It makes the game world MORE fantastic. Imagine how it would feel to find a city where you could go into a shop and buy a magic carpet!
(4) It makes most magic equipment seem more mundane - that's fine. I don't want a game where players are obsessed with equipment. Rather than remembering how they defeated a lich and found an amazing magic staff, they should remember how they defeated the lich and saved the world.
(5) It avoids game time being devoted to shopping (sorry guys, you'll have to wait half an hour while the fighter tries to find an Amulet of Natural Armour +3), creating more of a focus on story and action.
(6) If I want an exciting 'you find an amazing item' moment this can still happen. It's just that the amazing items are not +2 swords, they're indestructible +2 talking swords with unusual powers.
I actually see th crux of the whole argument. It's all down to being able to build the type of character you want, magic items and all.
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Another problem I see is too many players reading the "guidelines" section on cities and magic items. Need I remind everyone that those are "guidelines" for DMs who don't want to have to create a ratio of magic items in certain sized cities- more of a quick reference really. Itddoesn't mean that every metropolis you walk into is supposed to have XY and Z because the book gave you some advice.
I find it rather refreshing that you're willing to accept these "guidelines" as exactly what they are, "guidelines". I find it rather frustrating that I had to witness your magic item creation thread where having "guidelines" apparently wasn't enough for you.
If you want a custom built PC then you need to sit down with your DM beforehand and find out if it's plausible. Don't walk into a campaign with your build idea expecting it to be catered to.
I think the very nature of Pathfinder means all PC's are custom built. But, I do fully agree that the players and DM should always discuss thier character concepts ahead of time. As a player, if my concept requires a certain item to function properly, I would hope the DM would accomodate my build choices when the time comes.
I prefer DM's who reward creativity, not stifle it. But, I agree that a player who doesn't discuss his character concept before building it should not expect any preferential treatment.
If you're worried about finding the wrong weapon then how about asking the DM if you can take it somewhere and have the enchantment transferred to the appropriate weapon?
I do like this idea. I hate it when my falcata wielding inquisitor can only find magical longswords. It hurts having to lose half the value just so I can get the same enchantment in a sword type of my choosing.
It's nice to have an actual example and to see that the way those arguing for either side would handle it is about the same.
If you haven't looked at the actual guidelines, assuming this is a Large City (10,001–25,000), everything they want falls under the 8,000gp limit and so would be available 75% of the time. Except the sword, which would be just over the limit. Which is pretty much how everyone treated it.
Expect, it wasn't treated like that. It was the Armor the dude had a issue with enhancing.
" The +1 sword upgrade to +2 was not possible to do in one day. The PC in question used diplomacy on a guard captain who had a +2 sword and managed to trade his +1 sword and an appropriate amount of cash (plus a tip) for the +2 sword. The guard agreed to upgrade to replace his sword. It is worth noting that the guard captain was aware that the party was heading on a dangerous quest and felt that the +2 sword was better going with the party since he could get a replacement (and make a bit of coin) in a couple of days.
The armor upgrade simply wasn't possible."
So yeah, you'd think the cheaper option would be okay, but no apparently.
The problem with the armor upgrade was that there wasn't time to do it, not that it cost more or less. And nobody had a set of +2 that could be traded. Plate armor is rather rare in my world. Pretty much only knights and adventurers wear it and the town they were in doesn't really do "knights in armor."
The city was under order of evacuation, so while stores were allowed to be open during the day so people could supply, most activities like blacksmithing had closed so the family could evacuate.
Part of the way I helped explain the whole "not everything's available on the menu" was demographics. The town where the PCs are right now is a Large Town stats wise but in play its basically like a big village where they have a lot of hunters and woodsmen. One wouldn't expect to find suits of platemail enchanted here - rangers don't generally wear that kind of gear. However a +1 bow might be laying about, or perhaps under construction at any given time.
Conversely there's a nearby city of dwarves with a fighting school there. They make all kinds of martial weapons and heavy armor, so if you're looking for that kind of magic go there. Finally on the outskirts of the region is a city with a healthy culture of wizards and clerics; if you're looking for staves, wands or such head there.
You do realize that there is a middle ground between the GM as dictator, and the PCs as dictator.
That's why I said it was a group decision. The GM is a part of the group. :)
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I have magic shops in my game world.
I have never had a magic shop that had 'every item under the sun and a menu you can scroll through'. That's actually kind of insulting and a strawman argument IMHO.
I actually have lists of what is available in the shop. When someone says they go shopping in town, I pull up a list, hand it to them, and tell them that's what's available in shop A, B and C, all listed together. If what they want isn't on the list, they can go see about having it crafted custom.
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I get around the "infinite menu of items in shops" problem by applying a time requirement to purchases: my current version is 1 hour of shopping per 1,000 gp of the item.I like this idea and may have to blend it into my own games.
And this is the point that made the entire conversation make more sense to me.
I didn't realize that people said 'magic shop' and immediately meant everything was on the table to be bought. I always thought it was a more generic term meaning, "the magic items available for sale in the town as is determined by the rules for settlements".
Yeah I can see why people would have issues with people thinking everything is always on the table right when you want it.
I always see 'the magic shop' as more like an actual store -- they have hours of business, a set location and only so much and specific types of merchandise, and you (the adventurer) have to live with that.
it's not a strawman argument when people consistently insist that anything 'reasonable' should just BE available at any decent sized city. Reasonable = anything I want for my character provided it isnt really expensive. Which means they expect a menu to be available to purchase what they want, when they want it.
I'm saying no.
Carl the crafter doesn't necessarily live in the city either.
I play wizards like I am myself with my stuff, Do I have guns and snowmobiles and more than one vehicle? Yep. Is someone going to talk me out of my "extra" things with some money....hmmmm not extremely easy, I have them because I want them. Did I custom modify them? Yep, but I didnt do it for you.
It's like american pickers trying to talk some guy out of rusty old sign... But your a wizard, and you don't need that flaming great sword..... 4,000 gold?
No....no.... i just can't part with it....
AAaaaaRG.
Now if one wandered into a pathfinder lodge (and better yet was a member) I'd expect all manner of things for sale, and they would very likely have people in a back like santa's elves slaving away making scrolls and wands and all manner of consumables simply because there is a high demand and high turn over rate.
Even so, an agile amulet or weapon? Probably not coming off the cookie cutter shelf, but they have people who can craft it.
I would envision that kinda like Q for James Bond, his shop is full of all sorts of kookie stuff ,eluding to the fact that he can and will make ANYTHING, but this level of crafter isn't open to the general public, they dont tend to deal well with mobs of strangers.
Different setting, different circumstances.
Katapesh in a bizzare would be another place you might find quit a bit of centralized loot.
But the likely hood of large amounts of money and a plethora of items have to be in the same place for this to exist. There for it's not commonplace to wander into the smithy in town and find anything you want.... sure, he'll have swords, even some special ones. But with the right skill checks you (and money) you MIGHT be able to get him to reveal his private stock to you...say three or four special items, buy a few things from him, become trusted regulars, and perhaps you can convince him to make something custom, given the right amount of time, and materials, which also might require a specialist to cast X spell, or at least a scroll or whatever....
Oh perish the thought a plot hook for a side quest to get what you want?
No, it should just be reasonably on the shelf.
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?
I get around the "infinite menu of items in shops" problem by applying a time requirement to purchases: my current version is 1 hour of shopping per 1,000 gp of the item.I like this idea and may have to blend it into my own games.And this is the point that made the entire conversation make more sense to me.
I didn't realize that people said 'magic shop' and immediately meant everything was on the table to be bought. I always thought it was a more generic term meaning, "the magic items available for sale in the town as is determined by the rules for settlements".
Yeah I can see why people would have issues with people thinking everything is always on the table right when you want it.
I always see 'the magic shop' as more like an actual store -- they have hours of business, a set location and only so much and specific types of merchandise, and you (the adventurer) have to live with that.
In addition to this, I DO NOT have a 75% likely for anything under X gpv to exist. with the exception of consumables like wands and potions and scrolls, which essentially are spells in a can.
So what this means is, no you can't go into a large city and have a 75% chance of finding a ring of invisibility. If we are talking about +1 swords? In absalom? Sure.
+2 Agile Aldori dueling sword? No.I don't care what it's price is, it's not automatically going to be available, although statisically speaking,,,, there might BE one in that city.... maybe it's just not for sale?
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?
To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?
it's not a strawman argument when people consistently insist that anything 'reasonable' should just BE available at any decent sized city. Reasonable = anything I want for my character provided it isnt really expensive. Which means they expect a menu to be available to purchase what they want, when they want it.
Pendagast, this is a strawman argument. People do not "consistently insist" anything like this. At least nobody I play with does and none of the magic shop proponents on this thread do. This is an imaginary player who is presenting an argument that is at the very extreme end of magic shop use. It is by definition a "straw man".
I'm saying no.
Carl the crafter doesn't necessarily live in the city either.
Fine, that's your prerogative. That doesn't mean that if others play otherwise they are dishing up free plates of awesomesauce orbs.
I play wizards like I am myself with my stuff, Do I have guns and snowmobiles and more than one vehicle? Yep. Is someone going to talk me out of my "extra" things with some money....hmmmm not extremely easy, I have them because I want them. Did I custom modify them? Yep, but I didnt do it for you.
It's like american pickers trying to talk some guy out of rusty old sign... But your a wizard, and you don't need that flaming great sword..... 4,000 gold?
No....no.... i just can't part with it....AAaaaaRG.
Well, in a world without magic shops, I suppose this could be true. In a world with magic shops merchants would be wanting to sell their wares. But what they can sell is restricted to what they have in stock.
Now if one wandered into a pathfinder lodge (and better yet was a member) I'd expect all manner of things for sale, and they would very likely have people in a back like santa's elves slaving away making scrolls and wands and all manner of consumables simply because there is a high demand and high turn over rate.
This is fine, but why you think this is reasonable but a magic shop is not is truly beyond me. If a pathfinder lodge can have a bunch of "people in the back like santa's elves" why can't a merchant? This starts to tread into the "world revolves around the PCs" territory. Why does the PC oriented "society" get special treatment compared to the entrepreneur merchant who has the same idea?
Even so, an agile amulet or weapon? Probably not coming off the cookie cutter shelf, but they have people who can craft it.
Again, totally reasonable. I have seen one person post that they would expect to have an agile amulet available in this entire thread. Most of us have said that availability of items is setting specific or based on the guidelines which would not guarantee the availability of the amulet. In my world this item would be a hard thing to find and would probably have to be crafted just because it is a sort of unusual item with limited market potential.
I would envision that kinda like Q for James Bond, his shop is full of all sorts of kookie stuff ,eluding to the fact that he can and will make ANYTHING, but this level of crafter isn't open to the general public, they dont tend to deal well with mobs of strangers.
Different setting, different circumstances.
Katapesh in a bizzare would be another place you might find quit a bit of centralized loot.
But the likely hood of large amounts of money and a plethora of items have to be in the same place for this to exist. There for it's not commonplace to wander into the smithy in town and find anything you want.... sure, he'll have swords, even some special ones. But with...
I think you and I have already shown that a campaign with magic shops can be run in such a way that it is virtually identical to a campaign without them. It's all in the presentation and the GM's flavor.
If anyone has actually presented an argument for the straw man the anti magic shop crowds keep railing against, I haven't seen it. But that's what keeps getting thrown out there. "Orbs of awesome sauce" "anything a PC wants" "magic items littering the street"...
It gets tiresome. Nobody is proposing running the game that way, so why do you and the other anti magic shops keep arguing against it?
You win. We don't want that either.
But that has literally nothing at all to do with whether magic shops exist or not. You can do the same thing with temples, guilds or, in your own example, societies that exist for the benefit of adventurers.
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?
Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
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There is a reason the “wealth by level” rule is in the core book. If the party isn’t properly equipped (for the encounter) it messes with the CR which might lead to a TPK.
I agree a character shouldn't expect to find all he wants in every shop at every time, but it’s obvious that at level X you should have a +X weapon or/and a +X armor. You may not find all the consumables you need at a specific time nor very specific items such as a +3, X bane, keen rapier, but eventually you will get them, especially at higher level.
So yes, I more or less agree with the OP.
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There is a reason the “wealth by level” rule is in the core book. If the party isn’t properly equipped (for the encounter) it messes with the CR which might lead to a TPK.
I agree a character shouldn't expect to find all he wants in every shop at every time, but it’s obvious that at level X you should have a +X weapon or/and a +X armor. You may not find all the consumables you need at a specific time nor very specific items such as a +3, X bane, keen rapier, but eventually you will get them, especially at higher level.
So yes, I more or less agree with the OP.
You would only need to worry about that if your party scales with CR.
Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.
Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
Shops have guards/defenses, same as real life security exists for Antique/pawn/Dairy Queen shops.
Alarm is a cheap repeating trap to have to warn you there are thieves.
This alerts the city watch.
Now if this trouble is too much for them, that sounds like a Plot hook for the PCs or they hire mercenaries (other higher level figures, other adventurers, etc).
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?Because the good stuff is fairly well protected? Raiding the wizard's guild, the temples and the thieves guild to grab a stash of magic items isn't really a good idea. Or even attacking the rich and well-connected merchants. Some of the rest are scattered around the city in private hands.
You're going to piss everyone off for relatively small gain.And it's not the "land's best items". Based on the same guidelines, those are rarely for sale. Even the biggest metropolis will only have 3d4 Major items available.
All depends on who you are dealing with.
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If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.
I just TOLD YOU exactly what is stopping them.
One thing I have noticed with you Shallowsoul is a remarkable tendency to just keep pushing your point as if nobody ever rebuts it or presents an alternative.
It's like shadow boxing. There's only your side, repeated over and over again as if repetition alone wins debates.
it's not a strawman argument when people consistently insist that anything 'reasonable' should just BE available at any decent sized city. Reasonable = anything I want for my character provided it isnt really expensive. Which means they expect a menu to be available to purchase what they want, when they want it.Pendagast, this is a strawman argument. People do not "consistently insist" anything like this. At least nobody I play with does and none of the magic shop proponents on this thread do. This is an imaginary player who is presenting an argument that is at the very extreme end of magic shop use. It is by definition a "straw man".
I'm saying no.
Carl the crafter doesn't necessarily live in the city either.
Fine, that's your prerogative. That doesn't mean that if others play otherwise they are dishing up free plates of awesomesauce orbs.
I play wizards like I am myself with my stuff, Do I have guns and snowmobiles and more than one vehicle? Yep. Is someone going to talk me out of my "extra" things with some money....hmmmm not extremely easy, I have them because I want them. Did I custom modify them? Yep, but I didnt do it for you.
It's like american pickers trying to talk some guy out of rusty old sign... But your a wizard, and you don't need that flaming great sword..... 4,000 gold?
No....no.... i just can't part with it....AAaaaaRG.
Well, in a world without magic shops, I suppose this could be true. In a world with magic shops merchants would be wanting to sell their wares. But what they can sell is restricted to what they have in stock.
Now if one wandered into a pathfinder lodge (and better yet was a member) I'd expect all manner of things for sale, and they would very likely have people in a back like santa's elves slaving away making scrolls and wands and all manner of consumables simply because there is a high demand and high turn over rate.This is fine, but...
AD YOU are arguing that. YOU specifically state, rather angrily in THIS very thread that any "reasonable" item MUST be available because the character has built his concept on it...are YOU fictitious?