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I'm sure good few actually ignore spell components because I see people posting their Wizards and they spend all their cash in items which doesn't leave much room for the purchasing of spell components. If you go through the lists of spells then you will find that some of them aren't so cheap. For example, the Wall of Iron spell costs 50gp per casting. Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive.
If you don't really enforce all spell components then you essentially make "Eschew Materials" worthless.
I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some.
I bet this gets hand waved a good bit.
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The game assumes that the correct spell components are always in the spell component pouch, so unless they cost money I don't track them. The beauty of the Eschew Materials feat is not that you don't have to track anything. It is that you don't have to worry about the spell component pouch being sundered.
Yes I will sunder that bag, even though I have not done it yet. As a player I make sure to carry more than one in case a GM ever does it to me.
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The game assumes that the correct spell components are always in the spell component pouch, so unless they cost money I don't track them. The beauty of the Eschew Materials feat is not that you don't have to track anything. It is that you don't have to worry about the spell component pouch being sundered.
Yes I will sunder that bag, even though I have not done it yet. As a player I make sure to carry more than one in case a GM ever does it to me.
Well Eschew only takes care of components up to 1 gp.
I hand wave any spell components that do not show a price. If it shows a price, then they have to remember to buy those components.
I usually allow a sorcerer to choose a feat instead of Eschew Materials for this reason.
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.
Is crazy given that all the shape/form spells use the component line...
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Given the number of creatures you can turn in to, a spell component pouch has bits from almost all the bestiary monsters...
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...Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive...
...I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some...
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.Not asking where they got spell components with unlisted prices isn't called "handwaving" it's called "following the rules".
What you're doing is a houserule. A completely logical houserule that I kind of like, but a houserule.
But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components.
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But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components....Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive...
...I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some...
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.Not asking where they got spell components with unlisted prices isn't called "handwaving" it's called "following the rules".
What you're doing is a houserule. A completely logical houserule that I kind of like, but a houserule.
It doesn't say it runs out and, therefore, it does not. The wizard is assumed to refill them "off-screen", I suppose.
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My RL group waives all material components. Honestly, I find a spell component pouch which simultaneously contains live bugs, butter, pinches of dirt and hair, pieces of various monsters, tiny pies, and all kinds of insane odds and ends and from which you can draw exactly what you need as a free action without having to dig around for it utterly immersion-breaking.
If you're going to require a component, then require it. You might as well just make a little bag be an Arcane Bond. :P
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Do you have a reference for this? I don't disbelieve you, I'm genuinely curious about it.How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?
It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
Well Eschew only takes care of components up to 1 gp.The game assumes that the correct spell components are always in the spell component pouch, so unless they cost money I don't track them. The beauty of the Eschew Materials feat is not that you don't have to track anything. It is that you don't have to worry about the spell component pouch being sundered.
Yes I will sunder that bag, even though I have not done it yet. As a player I make sure to carry more than one in case a GM ever does it to me.
I know, and whether you have Eschew or not they still have to pay for the ones that cost more than one gp. That pouch does not allow you to get the more expensive ones for free.
PS:If I am misunderstanding you then I apologize in advance.
But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components....Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive...
...I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some...
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.Not asking where they got spell components with unlisted prices isn't called "handwaving" it's called "following the rules".
What you're doing is a houserule. A completely logical houserule that I kind of like, but a houserule.
I just assume the PC's refill the bag as needed. It is one of those things such as maintaining weapons that I don't make players actually RP in the game.
edit:That is my flavor for it.
mechanically not much in the game is said to last forever, but I dont make players replace them.
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So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
That's a very good question.
Here's another one: why can a wizard get a pouch of a thousand different spell components for free and grab any one he wants from it without spending an action, but an archer needs to track arrows and spend a move action to take out a bow?
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I just assume the PC's refill the bag as needed. It is one of those things such as maintaining weapons that I don't make players actually RP in the game.But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components....Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive...
...I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some...
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.Not asking where they got spell components with unlisted prices isn't called "handwaving" it's called "following the rules".
What you're doing is a houserule. A completely logical houserule that I kind of like, but a houserule.
I could see hand waving a fighter needing to sharpen his sword on a whetstone but but some of the components that are required are a bit exotic to the point that hand waving would seem a bit odd when actually read what the component is.
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But it doesn't say the pouch lasts forever. You can use a focus over and over again unless it is consumed but not with the other components....Mnemonic Enhancer will cost you a 50gp Focus and you have to find some black dragon blood which may not be easy and may be expensive...
...I track spell components and I ask the spell casters where they got some of the more exotic components because if there is no way they could have gotten it then they won't be casting that spell until they actually find some...
Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell
component pouch is assumed to have all the material
components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except
for those components that have a specific cost, divine
focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t f it in a pouch.Not asking where they got spell components with unlisted prices isn't called "handwaving" it's called "following the rules".
What you're doing is a houserule. A completely logical houserule that I kind of like, but a houserule.
I just assume the PC's refill the bag as needed. It is one of those things such as maintaining weapons that I don't make players actually RP in the game.
edit:That is my flavor for it.
mechanically not much in the game is said to last forever, but I dont make players replace them.
I can see refilling a pouch when the materials are plenty but when you get ones that are a bit out there then it becomes more difficult to imagine the spellcaster finding them on a day to day basis.
Do you have a reference for this? I don't disbelieve you, I'm genuinely curious about it.How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?
It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
The devs made the game with material components. The actual material component is just flavor. Personally I would never have dragon scales as a common component because of how dangerous they are. Just like in the spell compendium I think a spell required the eyes of a demon or devil as a common component. I think that was a bad choice since outsider parts won't really be common. If the dragon scale bothers you then I would suggest you change it to something else, that makes more sense.
If the character doesn't have Eschew Materials or a spell component pouch, then you bet I enforce them.
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The devs made the game with material components. The actual material component is just flavor. Personally I would never have dragon scales as a common component because of how dangerous they are. Just like in the spell compendium I think a spell required the eyes of a demon or devil as a common component. I think that was a bad choice since outsider parts won't really be common. If the dragon scale bothers you then I would suggest you change it to something else, that makes more sense.Do you have a reference for this? I don't disbelieve you, I'm genuinely curious about it.How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?
It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
I'm not really here to find a houserule, I'm here to try and piece together something that I believe gets over looked a lot.
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I'm not really here to find a houserule, I'm here to try and piece together something that I believe gets over looked a lot.The devs made the game with material components. The actual material component is just flavor. Personally I would never have dragon scales as a common component because of how dangerous they are. Just like in the spell compendium I think a spell required the eyes of a demon or devil as a common component. I think that was a bad choice since outsider parts won't really be common. If the dragon scale bothers you then I would suggest you change it to something else, that makes more sense.Do you have a reference for this? I don't disbelieve you, I'm genuinely curious about it.How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?
It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
The ways the rules are written, nothing is getting overlooked. If you have a spell component pouch then you have as much dragon's blood and demon eyeballs as you need to cast your spells.
That said I have played a game where the GM enforced wizards to keep meticulate track of EVERY SINGLE spell component they had (albeit, it was 2nd edition, and years ago). That same game he also required instructions that you were repairing and maintaining weapons and armor, descriptions of when you ate, what EXACT rations you carried, everything down to the most minute thing. After about 2 months of having weapons break because "You didn't tell me you checked your sword for dents after the last fight", I quit.
If you and your group likes that kind of thing, go for it. Some of us don't.
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I'm not really here to find a houserule, I'm here to try and piece together something that I believe gets over looked a lot.The devs made the game with material components. The actual material component is just flavor. Personally I would never have dragon scales as a common component because of how dangerous they are. Just like in the spell compendium I think a spell required the eyes of a demon or devil as a common component. I think that was a bad choice since outsider parts won't really be common. If the dragon scale bothers you then I would suggest you change it to something else, that makes more sense.Do you have a reference for this? I don't disbelieve you, I'm genuinely curious about it.How much life can you get out of one spell component pouch?
It does reach an end if you aren't actively looking for more materials to fill it.
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.
What happens if Black Dragons don't exist in your world etc...?
The book specifically says the bag is assumed to have the correct components. Otherwise it would have said it only has the compontents when it is purchased, or it would give you a limited number of uses, before it would be assumed to be empty.
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I've not yet bumped into this problem, despite playing mostly wizards in the Pathfinderverse. Whenever we're in town, I often tell the GM that I'm going to spend a little time restocking my spell components, he marks off a dozen or so gold, and we call it good.
When I do have the spells with expensive components on hand, I usually track those on my character sheet in the same way that archers track arrows; with the name of the spell/component and several little boxes next to it that I check off as I cast spells.
When I run games, I treat my players the same way. I only really check on them if they've been burning through a lot of high-cost spells with no effort made to replace components.
In the field, I've been known to allow a caster to use a Spellcraft or Know: Arcana to harvest useful components on the fly.
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So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.That's a very good question.
Here's another one: why can a wizard get a pouch of a thousand different spell components for free and grab any one he wants from it without spending an action, but an archer needs to track arrows and spend a move action to take out a bow?
This argument doesn't work. Pretty sure you can draw a weapon as part of a move?
In response to the OP, I'd enforce them, but I'm usually way too inebriated to realize it during the heat of the moment.
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Material components without a gp cost are just there for flavor.
There's no mechanical difference between a spell with Components: V, S and an otherwise identical spell with Components: V, S, M (a scale of the dragon type you want to assume).
You could do away with M components entirely (except for the pricey ones), and by that I mean "change all spell descriptions so they don't mention M components at all except for costly ones") and not affect the game one bit--except in the rare circumstances where your wizard's spell component pouch has been stolen, which is a circumstance where the GM is being a jerk anyway. :)
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
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Material components without a gp cost are just there for flavor.
There's no mechanical difference between a spell with Components: V, S and an otherwise identical spell with Components: V, S, M (a scale of the dragon type you want to assume).
You could do away with M components entirely (except for the pricey ones), and by that I mean "change all spell descriptions so they don't mention M components at all except for costly ones") and not affect the game one bit--except in the rare circumstances where your wizard's spell component pouch has been stolen, which is a circumstance where the GM is being a jerk anyway. :)
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
Then they really should just take out spell components except for costly ones. They could use the room in the books for something else to be honest.
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Here's another one: why can a wizard get a pouch of a thousand different spell components for free and grab any one he wants from it without spending an action, but an archer needs to track arrows and spend a move action to take out a bow?
Because fighters can't have nice things
This argument doesn't work. Pretty sure you can draw a weapon as part of a move?
Only as part of normal movement (or a short charge), not as part of another move action or a full-round action.
Seems to me that drawing your bow shouldn't be harder than rooting through your pouch of a thousand different components to grab exactly the one you need.
The point of the pouch is to gimp a magic user by destroying/stealing it. It's like an Arcane Bond pouch. The point is not "You haven't seen a bat in weeks. You can't cast Fireball."
I really do ignore it, most of the time.
However! If a character loses their spell component pouch, or it is destroyed, they are quite f****d. Then I will ask to see their sheet and whether they have a second one. If so, that has to be brought and stocked as it were.
Good point though Yang on the thousand different spell components.
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I do enforce tracking material components that are specifically listed. For everything else, I assume the material component is in the spell component pouch. If it's immersion breaking for you in some way than you can assume that spell components that aren't specified are easily renewable resources (Butterfly wings, spider legs, etc), or use simple foci and thus aren't consumed.
When a spell lists a specific cost, you're suppose to track those material components. To me things like "Dragon's blood" is a specific cost, even if not the standard monetary kind. I enforce that too.
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Then they really should just take out spell components except for costly ones. They could use the room in the books for something else to be honest.Material components without a gp cost are just there for flavor.
There's no mechanical difference between a spell with Components: V, S and an otherwise identical spell with Components: V, S, M (a scale of the dragon type you want to assume).
You could do away with M components entirely (except for the pricey ones), and by that I mean "change all spell descriptions so they don't mention M components at all except for costly ones") and not affect the game one bit--except in the rare circumstances where your wizard's spell component pouch has been stolen, which is a circumstance where the GM is being a jerk anyway. :)
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
They often sit on the same line as the other components so its not a factor.
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Pouches can be stolen and lost in a variety of ways. If so, then you're stuck scavenging those weird components until you get another one.
It may be immersion breaking to have all that stuff and be able to sift through all of it to find the component you need as a free action, but it's an improvement over tracking all those things like we had to pre-3e.
Material components is one of the many reasons my next game is going to be Iron Heroes or Psionics only, though.
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For those who handwave anything less than 1 gp, do you give the sorcerer an extra bonus feat?
So am I. If a single purchase of a spell pouch eliminates all components that don't have a listed price then why bother throwing in "black dragon's blood" or "powered quartz" into a spell's material component section.That's a very good question.
Here's another one: why can a wizard get a pouch of a thousand different spell components for free and grab any one he wants from it without spending an action, but an archer needs to track arrows and spend a move action to take out a bow?
Because despite people saying that the wizard (and other spellcasters) is overpowered, the tendancy over time hasn't been to nerf the class, it's been to nerf the classes weaknesses (or eliminate them altogether).
You could do away with M components entirely (except for the pricey ones), and by that I mean "change all spell descriptions so they don't mention M components at all except for costly ones") and not affect the game one bit--except in the rare circumstances where your wizard's spell component pouch has been stolen, which is a circumstance where the GM is being a jerk anyway. :)
Man, I should stop reading SKR's posts. The fact that he's probably going to be one of the main developers for PF 2e is NOT encouraging. Apparently he believes that fantasy worlds should have remarkably liberal prisons.
Screw handy haversacks and bags of holding, a simple spell component pouch evidently holds an infinite amount of an infinite variety of items.
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If you want to house rule it differently, the Eschew Materials will be far more valuable.
That's the way it stands now.
It's not hard to be far more valuable than utterly damned worthless.
There should be a difference between a component with an unlisted price and a component that's common enough that every spell component pouch contains it. Black dragon blood being a great example.
There are only a few spells I might get picky about. Alter self, for example, requires a piece of the creature you want to become. It doesn't say how big a piece, but if you wanted to be an orc, you need a piece of an orc. Certain creatures, like sahaguin, may not live anywhere near you, and you would have to get a piece of one to become one.
This thread is a good reminder that some components require the caster to mention that they got them somehow, if they're planning to turn into whatever.
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If you don't like how the spell component pouch works, just be glad this isn't Dungeons & Dragons. The Book of Vile Darkness contained spells that required evil artifacts, severed hands of good aligned clerics, and bones from still living children. As none of those had a cost associated with them, they were all assumed to be contained in infinite amounts in the standard spell component pouch.
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You're trying to use this as a justification for wizards not being as powerful as people think. It isn't, and they are.