Goblin Squad Member
|
Ironically, the thing I would want in monks is balance. I wouldn't want to see a character than can do everything other roles can do, yet still qualify for a class cap bonuses. A monk that can fight like a fighter, heal like a cleric (even just on himself), run like a barbarian, wield energy like a mage, and creep about like a rogue, yet has STILL kept everything to within his Monk Class abilities, is somewhat out of balance with the other roles.
Ironically, the thing I would want in monks is balance. I wouldn't want to see a character than can do everything other roles can do, yet still qualify for a class cap bonuses. A monk that can fight like a fighter, heal like a cleric (even just on himself), run like a barbarian, wield energy like a mage, and creep about like a rogue, yet has STILL kept everything to within his Monk Class abilities, is somewhat out of balance with the other roles.
Of course that's ideal. No one class should be able to be better than every other option. There needs to be limitations on this just as much as there are on every other class. As long as they stick to the tabletop for their inspiration, it should be fine. While monks can fight, heal, use elemental based attacks, and even cast a few spells, no one would ever accuse them of being better melee combatants than fighters, better healers than clerics, or better spell casters than wizards or sorcerers. Not only that, but most of their most impressive abilities draw on ki. 2 points of ki to be able to heal or cast Dragon's Breath is a pretty big deal when a level 20 monk will probably only have 20 or 25 ki.
Striking a balance between all of their special powers is important for the monk. The generalist shoudl certainly never be better than the specialist at what they do... 2/3 to 3/4 of their effectiveness is about where it is in tabletop. It seems like a decent balance.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Have to watch Hate build up here...
Probably not. Ryan doesn't sound like he's a fan of Hate/Threat... at least not the way it's typically done.
There's very good argument to be made that the problem with the Trinity is the Tank. And the Tank works because of Hate. Hate was an interesting mechanic, but by metagaming it the Tank became possible, and once the Tank became possible, the Trinity was the only rational outcome.
...
We're going to focus design effort on the Hate mechanic and on other ways that PvE content interacts with players with an eye towards avoiding a feedback loop that would trap us in the Trinity.
I don't know what they're going to do, but if past history is any indication, it will be brilliant :)
With a System like the one PFO is looking at we as players will need to abuse it, to see if a certain set allows one to be 2nd and 3rd best at everything, as that will be a powerful and maybe Overpowered set.I see a Monk having Self Heals only.
Attacking very fast, but each hit is lighter than a fighter.
Have to watch Hate build up here, as many games with Monks it was easy to go to Top of list, as each hit added and the damage.Lee
While it's certainly not best for any class to be 2nd or 3rd best at anything, it IS ok for them to be 2nd or 3rd best at a few things. Really, it matters how big a difference there is between 1st and 3rd as well as between 3rd and 4th.
For instance, if the fighter is king of sustained dps at 1000 dps, second is the rogue at 900, then the monk is third at 800 that isn't really that big of a deal as long as 4th, 5th, and 6th are 795, 790, and 750... Of course, if the fighter is at 1000, the rogue is at 950 and the monk is at 925, with the 4th, 5th and 6th placers still at 795, 790, and 750 then that is a pretty hugely big difference!
It isn't what place they come in at, but rather what percentage of 1st they're at and what percent everyone else is at. Also, considering the amount of utility everyone in the game will have access to because of the proposed character advancement system, a class designed with utility in mind doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, as long as that utility doesn't overwhelm the other possibilities.
The one GOOD thing about the monk coming out later in the development cycle than other classes is that GW will have a much better idea of what builds people are using so they can be a bit more on target with their decisions for the classes overall power level considering the utility. If everyone who makes a cleric is taking a ton of fighter stuff so that all clerics and most fighters are hybrids, then how is it bad to give the monk the ability to heal? If all the mages are taking rogue stuff or barbarian stuff, then how is it a big deal to let monks have some spell like abilities?
Open advancement systems will inevitably lead to people making hybrid characters. They will do so as much as the system allows them to. While it sounds like GW has put in a decent number of knobs and levers to control abusive combinations by way of the keyword system, gamers will still all trend towards whatever abuse the system allows. In an open pvp world, this will be even WORSE than in a pve game because a 5 or 10% power advantage means a world of difference in pvp... Lots of times, the difference between an 'efficient' character and one that isn't is MUCH more than that!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
One of the most powerful characters I ever playing in PnP D&D3.5 was a multi-classed psionic monk. I forget which psionic class I played, but they delivered powerful energy-based touch attacks. When combined with the unarmed attack damage and effect, it was like playing Champions!
Plus I could fly and all sorts of other kewl stuff.
In PFO, a monk/sorcerer could be almost as powerful.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is from another thread, but I feel it has relevance here:
Most attacks won't root you during the animation, so attackers will likely follow you if you just try to walk away (and moving tends to give you the Opportunity condition that a lot of guys with greatswords just love you to have).To deal with the Opportunity situation, you can move cautiously, which is similar to a five-foot step. It sets your movement rate to a walking speed instead of a hustle. You'll move really slowly, and probably won't get away from an attacker that has it in for you unless you have an ally running interference, but you don't get Opportunity. If there's a Fighter in your face, and you really want to try to disengage or lure him to a better position, it's probably a good idea. It does not cost Stamina; the cost is the slow movement. Moving cautiously is a movement toggle, the counterpart to sprinting, that anyone can use by pressing Shift.
Several attack, Refresh, and Utility feats feature Evade effects (especially common on feats designed for Rogues and Monks). These quickly move you backwards, similar to active dodges in other games. More powerful ones move you further away, faster. They tend to get you out of melee (or AoE) range faster than you could hustle, especially backwards, and don't tend to cause Opportunity. They do have an activation time and a Stamina cost (and only so many uses per Refresh, for ones on Refresh feats). If you don't...
One of the questions or concerns was involving when the Monk class will be introduced. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears that some of our abilities will be found in the Rogue tree.
Ki Powers could be saved away, along with the class name of "Monk", when a preset grouping of skills are are mastered.
If any of you are familiar with The Secret World, this would be very similar to unlocking a "Deck".
We have often referred to there being class skill trees, but perhaps it will be a skill wheel like there are in TSW?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
One of the questions or concerns was involving when the Monk class will be introduced. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears that some of our abilities will be found in the Rogue tree.
Ki Powers could be saved away, along with the class name of "Monk", when a preset grouping of skills are are mastered.
If any of you are familiar with The Secret World, this would be very similar to unlocking a "Deck".
We have often referred to there being class skill trees, but perhaps it will be a skill wheel like there are in TSW?
The text you quoted merely stated that Rogues and Monks would both get Evade abilities - not that they would share abilities. Nonetheless, I expect a lot of the basic Dexterity-based stuff to be common.
I think the analogy with TSW is relevant and useful in that archetypes will be composed of skills taken rather than the other way around, although I expect the PFO "wheel" will be much larger and more complicated and perhaps not even representable as an actual wheel.