So, last night we started a new campaign. Nothing of import has occurred yet, it was the informal meet and greet for the characters, and a couple quick sample combats for the new player in our group.
Some of you helped me solve a ruling issue revolving around the Sorcerer, so many many thanks go out to you!
First, I will introduce the Party, then explain!
1) Divine Hunter Archetype Paladin of Shelyn. Very optimized. I think this character is 'pre built' 1-20 Serious time went into creating this character. Human (no surprise from an optimization standpoint)
2) Sylvan Gnome Sorcerer based largely on my own Esmeralda the Sorcerer build, minus Conjuration Feats, with Eldritch Heritage Feats. Link if you are curious.
3) Cleric of Desna / Oracle of LIfe (wrote up both, still playing eenie meenie miney moe) Wants to play the Oracle, but the party is already very charisma oriented. Played both for Intro. RPd them as sisters, one will head back home after successfully getting the other to town.
4) Elf Wizard focused on Conjuration from the Divination School.
5) Dwarven Rogue.
House Rule #1: PFS Legal. Races available via Boon are free game.
House Rule #2: 5 bonus points for playing character other than: Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Witch, Summoner, Sorcerer, Oracle, or Half Elf with access to Paragon Surge.
So each of the characters above, except the rogue, is optimized pretty thoroughly. More importantly, all are very powerful classes in and of themselves.
Details on Rogue:
12 Str, 16 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 11 Cha
Feat:
Sneaky Vagabond
Traits:
Bandit (River Kingdoms) [Stealth]
Stealthy Escape
Weapon of choice:
Dual Wielded Daggers
This puts him at -3 (1d4+1) and -7 (1d4)
Skills are also a little random. He does not have Disable Device, because he is afraid of traps. He took all the Face Skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Linguistics, Sense Motive) because his background is a fence more than an actual thief. His other skills are Perception, Climb, Acrobatics, and Swim.
All together, it shows an appreciation and understanding of the character of his character, but . . .
I am going to try to inspire him to become a bard. He doesn't like the idea of being 'Pretty' and refuses to see charisma as anything other than a representation of 'how you look', complaining we already have too many 'pretty boys' (referring to the Paladin and Sorcerer).
So! Problem is, if I don't lower the DCs in the upcoming AP, he will die. He will die over and over. He will soak up any and all spare healing. He can't contribute anything reliably. We already have two, possibly three, charisma based characters, so him spending all his points on social skills is a waste.
How to explain 'Wow. This character is . . . wow.'
AP is set to be Carrion Crown.
I can post the full builds of everyone if it would make life easier.
depends on how you want to play it...but i would tell him he should not dual wield until he has 2 weapon fighting for one.
Toss him some free skill points and call it a day. Just at level one mind you. That way he can keep his feeling about being a fence and still aid the others in their face things.
That and be ready to let him build a new character if he dies or is bored
Yeah, he shouldn't be TWFing until he actually has the feat. Sneaky Vagabond looks more like a trait than a feat, but if he insists on keeping it, suggest that he only attack with one dagger at a time until he gets TWF.
There's no problem with him holding both daggers at the same time, one can be for throwing, and the other for stabbing. Just don't try to multitask without TWF.
Well, with Hp like that, I bet he can last a couple rounds. Carrying a dagger in each hand doesn't mean you are TWFing. In courage him to keep one ready to throw and the other for melee. Tell him he may want to drop his con just a might and boost his str for damage, that or straight switch str and con and all problems solved. Let him play as he wants, and don't change anything on your end. You may be surprised by him and his character. Just "role" with it... Lvl one is still young. Throw a couple traps in there and see if he doesn't change his mind about the trapfinding.
I may not be the most knowledgeable when it comes to knowing what each class does, however forcing him to go into a character class he does not like, especially when the bases of social could potentially already be covered considering the number of "pretty boys". What he does, however, have going for him is his Acrobatics and Swim compared to a bard. You also want to consider how much more of a stealth base gameplay that the rogue may have compared to the bard. With all this said, sure, he may not be optimal, but there are other aspects in which he may have a niche for the party.
You, as the GM, could alter some aspects to give him some of his own highlighted moments so he does not feel as horrible if that does turn out to be the case. In addition, you may also want to lessen the trap count (if there are traps planned) to account for the lack of a person built with disable trap.
If the situation does become terrible, however, it could be beneficial to try to come up with a particular trait for said player that would be beneficial, based upon how his rogue "convinces" his targets. Is he doing it from intelligence of various things, perhaps wisdom from past experience? More or less, you could perhaps have the character have some small sacrifice of some sort to change the modifier for those particular skills to another type of bonus. If this option is out of the question though, a talk with the player may be required to convince him otherwise.
Just take note that the player may not appreciate this one bit, especially if he's been planning out the character a good, long while or has already gotten an attachment from the concept/story. Try and compromise if able.
I used to try and get TWF at level one with a lot of characters. But usually, even with TWF at level one, I miss, A lot. It;s not really a good idea to try at level one. I usually try to wait until level 3 or 5 to start TWF.
With non rogues Ill use a shield for the extra AC and then just ditch it later.
With rogues I just bide my time.
I would ask him what he wanted to achieve with his character, what is this dwarf setting out to try and do. Work the build with him a little bit and go from there.
He's got stealthy traits and feats but no skill ranks in stealth?
He's got stealthy escape but no sleight of hand?
He's a fence who can't disable traps that might have been put on valuable goods?
He's a fence but he doesn't have appraise?!?
I'm not sure he really is showing good knowledge of a well-developed character.
I'm all for players not being maxed out in optimization, but there comes a point when his vision is too unfocused to be of much help. Face skills are good for a fence, sure, but his feats and traits point in a different direction. Is he trying to compensate for not investing in stealth as a skill? Ask him what he's trying to accomplish with build choices that don't help each other.
If he's really trying to go the fence rather than burglar route, I would suggest he drop the Dex and consider some Intelligence and Charisma in return. Drop the sense motive and linguistics in favor of appraise and sleight of hand. Drop the climb in favor of know (local) - because a fence might want to know if something a thief is pawning off on him is a well-known local object.
I would also tell him that fighting with wee weapons is for the wee folk. If he wants to keep a good Dex and work up the two-weapon and finesse feats, he should at least think short sword rather than dagger.
depends on how you want to play it...but i would tell him he should not dual wield until he has 2 weapon fighting for one.
We all tried to convince him he could just hold one, and attack with the other, he declined. He thinks two opportunities to hit with sneak attack makes up for the minuses, and disbelieves the math that shows his assumption is wrong.
Toss him some free skill points and call it a day. Just at level one mind you. That way he can keep his feeling about being a fence and still aid the others in their face things.
I am loathe to ever hand out freebies, so I can't bring myself to hand out free skill ranks
He's got stealthy traits and feats but no skill ranks in stealth?
He is relying on the bonuses from dex/trait/feat to give him ranks. I have explained the general role of rogue, he thinks being outside that realm will be more fun. Can't argue fun.
He's got stealthy escape but no sleight of hand?
As a fence, he does not consider himself a thief, hence no stealing.
He's a fence who can't disable traps that might have been put on valuable goods?
He has an Out of Character fear of traps. It is largely the reason for the super high Con. Group members told him of the rediculous DCs on a lot of traps, and the various affects that can be caused. He does not think he should risk his character on such a dangerous task.
He's a fence but he doesn't have appraise?!?
No idea. I figure at level 1, he doesn't need to do it all, just have a basis.
I'm not sure he really is showing good knowledge of a well-developed character.
That is my fear as well. I want him to have fun with his build, but he stubbornly refuses to see the problems the rest of his group have identified for him. So far, I have just provided little hints, like 'You know, ranks in your skill get you +3 Class skill bonus. The skills you want to focus on that are class skills really deserve a rank.' and 'You know, if you dual wield, and just attack with one weapon, you will hit a lot more.'
I'd tell him to be a knife master archetype and take weapon finesse as his first feat and also look into using the Kukri as his weapons which are 1d4 x2 and 18-20, then get Agile on his weapons for more damage and get improved crit as one of his feats pretty quick. He'll do more damage on sneak attacks and he'll be a little more formidable as a melee guys, I also agree that he needs to invest in the TWF feats pretty soon.
An idea I have for a character like that is a TWF ranger w/ the dip into knife master. Then he can get some TWF stuff for free and with the dip he'll up his damage on the sneak attacks with those weapons.
We all tried to convince him he could just hold one, and attack with the other, he declined. He thinks two opportunities to hit with sneak attack makes up for the minuses, and disbelieves the math that shows his assumption is wrong.
Sounds like this guy is going to have to learn from the school of hard knocks.
He's got stealthy escape but no sleight of hand?As a fence, he does not consider himself a thief, hence no stealing.
At this point, it's less a question of stealing and more a question of him having the stealthy escape trait and not being able to use it because he hasn't invested in the skills it depends on. That could be a rude awakening.
In any event, it sounds like he's digging in and not listening. If that's the case, don't go easy on him forever. I'd give him a chance to adjust once he sees how the PC in play actually works. If he doesn't and the PC turns out to be ineffective or dies, what can you do, eh? Tell him to consider your advice a little more thoughtfully next time...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The only real necessary suggestions:
1. Put one dagger down for now.
2. Drop a skill point into Stealth.
Other than that, it is what it is. Yeah, he'll probably die. Then again, he's in a solid party with what sounds like well-optimized, experienced gamers. It's not an optimized character...but it does have a theme. He'll either learn fast and adjust...or he'll enjoy playing his theme until his character buys the farm.
I was in a group once with a guy who refused to fix his notably sob-par character even a bit. He had a dex based melee build and wanted to go finesse with a kukri (the class being a 3PP Witchhunter). Even after the GM got him to switch the kukri out for a Falcata and houseruled that he could use that with finesse, he still did a prohibitively low amout of damage.
As a contrast the rest of the party were a wizard with a monk cohort, a beast master ranger with two times boon companion and two-handed style, an oracle and a druid. Nothing particularly optimized, but we had a lot of primary casters and some solid melee damage output going on.
Thing is, we never managed to convince the player to make his build at least a little better, but once we were playing and he saw the rather underwhelming contributions of his character, he realized what the problem was.
What I'm saying is, your dwarf player will probably feel very silly pretty soon after you start playing, and might even want to make a new character, in which case the death of this one would not be a loss at least.
Maybe you should just let him do his thing and learn his lesson.
I am loathe to ever hand out freebies, so I can't bring myself to hand out free skill ranks
What about borrowed ranks? Give him an additional skill point or two for stealth/appraise but have it count against him at level 2. If he would choose TWF at 3, give it to him early, 'Sneaky Vagabond' isn't exactly overpowering and he will get rogue talents at levels 2 and 4 so it shouldn't feel that bad. This worked out well once for my group when concept clashed against mechanics and no one felt bitter or jealous.
As for not taking disable device, all I can say is I hope his character does some growth and overcomes his phobia of traps. It might even make for some interesting roleplay. Encourage his character to go this route.
|
He has 9 skill ranks per level, even if he takes hit points.
He will have 12 or 13 hit points at first level.
He will have a +4 fort and a +4 reflex, with a +2 against all spells and spell like abilities.
He can take weapon finesse at 2nd level, and in the meantime he can just use one dagger and if he flanks get an extra 1d6 of damage.
What is the concern?
Also, he has darkvision, which he probably intends to take advantage of considering all the sneaky...
Unfortunately, without some stealth ranks, his sneakiness won't go far. I just hope he recognizes it quickly.
|
|
Also, he has darkvision, which he probably intends to take advantage of considering all the sneaky...Unfortunately, without some stealth ranks, his sneakiness won't go far. I just hope he recognizes it quickly.
He is 1st level and his stealth is +8 base, +10 if someone is looking for him, +12 in a crowd.
And he can see in the dark.
It isn't "optimized" but he will be fine. Probably better off than the casters at this level. I can think of several parts of the first AP where he is going to shine.
Edit: Correction, if he moves one point to stealth he will be. Otherwise he is +4, +6, +8.
I already plan to max HP on everything. I also intend to apply the Advanced Template to the single monsters they will encounter, as well as key NPCs. Just because without making up for the buys will make it a steamroller AP. I think I will allow the standard rebuild at level 2 from PFS play, and aside from that just let him see from personal experience over the next three weeks what his character is capable of.
He doesn't like the idea of being 'Pretty' and refuses to see charisma as anything other than a representation of 'how you look', complaining we already have too many 'pretty boys' (referring to the Paladin and Sorcerer).
Explain to him that his 'view' of the charisma score is not how the game defines it.
As examples of people who have great Charisma but are not 'pretty boys' give him Ed Asner, Bob Hoskins and Ernest Borgnine. All are/were considered great actors with exeptional personal magnetism and force of personality and I doubt any would call them 'pretty boys'.
He can still do what he wants but he needs to align his expectations within the game rules.
Otherwise let him die over and over and then explain again to him why it would not have happened if he had desinged with the rules rather than against them.
|
Let the player figure it out. May surprise you, and the other players will probably offer advice if its needed. If a player asks for advice or help, as a GM I'll offer some choices ("what are you trying to achieve? here's some thoughts..."), but telling them "your character stinks and you'd be better off as a bard" won't keep them coming back, no matter how nicely it's conveyed.
Okay, on the Charisma, open up your bestiary to the nastiest high charisma undead you can find, and show the picture. Wait one round (six seconds irl) then repeat your previous explanation.
Point out that if you don't train a skill, youre not good in the skill.
Then let him play, he will take the advice... or not.
|
Old saying that ive gone by as a player and a s a Dm for the last 35ish years. Let the Dice Fall as They May. If he dies he dies if he lives he lives its his character to play as he wishes. I would though institute a no rez rule rule like i do in my games to make the game more interesting. Some people like my entire group plays there characters smart and uses actual team work and tactic to survive. Im proud to say that in the game im playing now with the none of the have dies because they use actual terrain and aid another to boast each others to hit and def depending on the fight. With the fear of actual death loaming people either step up or shut up with an arrow through there neck and a dagger in there back.
A fence without an appraise skill? He doesn't even have knowledge (Local), does he? I guess that's why he became an adventurer, he was really bad at his job. Hmm... good point. Try to find out why the character wants to be an adventurer in the first place.
Sneaky Vagabond is a terrible feat. It's a +2 to stealth only when someone is actively looking for you, +4 in crowds. Skill focus in stealth is much better. Heck, one of the +2/+2 skill feats would be better.
Since he has 12 hit points to start, and won't die until he hits -18, he probably won't die, although he is going to be unconscious a lot. Let him take his lumps, it sounds like he is going to need to learn the hard way.
wasnt hitler once used in this game as an example of having high charisma? (think 1e did that)....hes not 'pretty'
Oh you mean like that weird TV commercial for some game that has "Sexy Abraham Lincoln" dancing around in short shorts chopping wood? You mean sexy hitler like that??
I just had a flash of some guy at a Bachelorette party dressed like hitler in lederhosen dancing for dollars!
I have a really sick sense of humor, DUDE I'd love to catch the reaction to that on you tube....
"here he is LADIES....your next entertainer of the niiiiiight! say helllloe to ADOLF!!!"
|
Well, the Rogue does not need to anti-optimize.
Some players feel the need to go out of their way to pick the least beneficial options, "for flavor".
They never realize that you can be crazy flavorful, and not have to always fall on the nerf sword.
Spend the ranks.
Also, not all sleight of hand is theft.
So! Problem is, if I don't lower the DCs in the upcoming AP, he will die. He will die over and over.
I don't see why this would be so. With a 16 dex, 18 con, and 12 wisdom he's going to have good saves, awesome hit points, and fair AC (for a rogue anyway). He will probably fare better than the rest of the party in resisting spells and effects, and be able to absorb more hit point damage than anyone other than an optimized tank.
We already have two, possibly three, charisma based characters, so him spending all his points on social skills is a waste.
It's not a waste if he enjoys these skills though, is it? Sure, your group may not have a lockpick. But that's easily solved by one of the other charisma toons picking up leadership and hiring a sneak, if that is necessary.
He can't contribute anything reliably.
I have trouble with this statement. It sounds like in-character, his guy is a fence doing his best to participate. No he's not going to mechanically do as well as the others, but he's not goofing off or endangering the group. I don't see why you'd try and force him to play a character concept he may very well be less passionate about due to him failing to measure up to some kind of implied contributory requirement.
I often object, as a player, to characters that are RP'd as goof-offs and clowns. In-character I'd have no reason to adventure with someone who doesn't take the life-or-death situations we find ourselves in seriously. I do not play idiots, so taking the clown into the Hall of Many Nasty Things just ain't going to happen.
But that doesn't seem to be what's going on here. In-character his guy is a fence. Has some decent (if redundant) skills, and eventually his dagger proficiencies will sort themselves out once he has gained some experience and learned the appropriate TWF techniques (feats).
I honestly don't see a problem.