I want to make a Sherlock Holmes character but I am relatively new to pathfinder. What do u guys suggest??
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Classic Sherlock Holme's : Bard (Detective Archetype)
Robert Downey Jr. version from the movies: Pump Int as high as possible, Monk: Any non zen archer.
Plus there is the sleepless detective prestige class. It only needs the alertness feat and a few skills at rank 5. It is good to dip since you add your INT modifier to perception and sense motive checks and you get a boosted detect magic at will (So you can drop it from you list of cantrips)
After that it mostly just gives you specific rogue talents as class features for a while.
But yeah, perception and sense motive are going to be your big skills. The character does not typically seem very social. The investigator archetype for rogues gives some advantages to using Diplomacy to gather information. Again, might be good for a dip. There are also various rogue talents that would help, but not going through the list right now.
Other options are a rogue or an inquisitor.
I like the sleepless detective class. I am not very fond of the bard idea but I like the idea of a high int rogue or Inquisitor (though the inquisitors divine theme doesnt seem to fit. Any idea for builds, feats, things to boost skills or make the character very effective or unique?
What do you want the character to do in combat? Do you want the character to be more "know a lot of stuff" or more "notice a lot of stuff"? Bard, wizard, or alchemist would be good for knowing stuff. Inquisitor (focus on Perception and Sense Motive) or a class with Trapfinding, would be good for noticing stuff.
Maybe I was a little harsh on the bard idea BC I looked at it again and it makes sense. I just dont know if I like how it changes inspire courage or really how to build this character in general
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What do you want the character to do in combat? Do you want the character to be more "know a lot of stuff" or more "notice a lot of stuff"? Bard, wizard, or alchemist would be good for knowing stuff. Inquisitor (focus on Perception and Sense Motive) or a class with Trapfinding, would be good for noticing stuff.
I want him to do both. Combat wise I am thinking a smart fighter. Sneak attack makes sense to me.
Make an Alchemist (Vivisectionist/Internal Alchemist) and pump Int along with either Dex or Str (your choice). Get the Kirin Style Feats so you can add your Int mod to damage as well as Str, and maybe dip that Sleepless Detective to grab the Int to Sense Motive/Perception. Will preclude you from one Discovery at level 20, but a Vivisectionist has access to relatively few anyway and Extra Discovery is always a Feat option.
Go either Unarmed Strike for flavor or grab a weapon that you feel would work fine.
Get the Kirin Style Feats so you can add your Int mod to damage as well as Str
I think maybe snake style (although kirin is better fluff) and a massive sense motive (skill focus, alertness, trait) for Holmes. I think his wisdom is the primary trait rather than intelligence.
I think urban ranger (unarmed) with a couple of monk levels.
First thing I thought of was the Alchemist with the Mindchemist archtype.
That would cover his cocaine addiction nicely. Yeah... they only bring out that little tid-bit in the new movies since House made it cool. Plus it was quite common at the time. Freud was an advocate before he went into psychotherapy.
Also, Trample, I am not so sure about about his wisdom. In one story, he was honestly surprised to find out that the Earth revolved around the sun. Because honestly: what does that have to do with catching criminals. No, he is an extremely well read savant that focuses intensely on study in order to facilitate his obsessions. Maxing out your knowledges (at least the key 4) would reflect that nicely.
Since people are talking about styles, might I suggest the Master of Many Styles monk. It fits will with his broad study, and would allow him both to use Kirin style (making use of the suggested knoweldges) and snake style (making use of his sense motive..which could be boosted with a dip into sleepless detective, making the style even more effective). A one level dip would get you the fused style and one style feat for free (2 style feats if you do 2 levels). The fact that the archetype lacks flurry of blows is actually a boon since it means you do not need to feel restricted to monk weapons. I personally like the sword cane, just for style.
Also, Trample, I am not so sure about about his wisdom. In one story, he was honestly surprised to find out that the Earth revolved around the sun. Because honestly: what does that have to do with catching criminals. No, he is an extremely well read savant that focuses intensely on study in order to facilitate his obsessions. Maxing out your knowledges (at least the key 4) would reflect that nicely.
Holmes is deep into a few very focused types of knowledge skills, but is absent many as well. In the books he is an expert at the various types of mud and clay around London. He has a deep knowledge of tabacco. He knows absolutely nothing about many things the average Englishman would know.
The way he analyzes problems lends itself to sense motive, perception, and survival (track) more than anything else. Those are wisdom-based skills. Holmes always observes what others only see (you could argue deep knowledge in certain areas helps here, but I would see ranks in knowledge - local filling this).
Well, I did suggest the sleepless detective since it added the intelligence modifier to those wisdom based skills. Plus, intelligence plays in mechanically for any skill since it allows skill points, or a broader range of study. I just do not see him as the "common sense" sort wisdom tends to play out as.
I've been looking up the Detective archetype of bard recently and it suits well. Also, Holmes played the violin if you need to summon instrument for countersong or other flavorful performances you could get those skill ranks. You get half your level on Sense Motive, Diplomacy (gather info), Perception and Kn: Local. You get extra divination spells that allow you to say, "Elementary, my dear Watson, judging by the sigils across the hilt of this sword, I can tell you that it is magical and has a strong affinity with the element of ice, making it, as it were, Elementary." You also get trapfinding and bonuses to your divination spells.
You lose the hallmark bard features, however, which looks on the surface to be bad, but come say 5th level you and your crew will all have a +2 initiative on all encounters with plenty of performance rounds for other things as it's an hour long buff.
You can then prestige into Loremaster if you like.
In any case, that archetype doesn't seem to interest you. I do rather like the look of the alchemist too. It's not the best fit, but it depends on how closely you want to match Holmes. (Personally I'm going for a Lt. Columbo feel)
all of these seem like great ideas. I made a monk\ silent detective last night and it was ok but not the right feel i think. I think the bard build is up next to see what i can do with that. I want the awesome detective but I dont want him to be totally un_effective in combat. Still trying to flesh him out. Any good magic items? He will be starting at level 6
You might also consider a Lore Warden fighter. Extra skill points, and all Int-based skills are class skills. Plus you get bonuses to combat maneuvers, and could pick up Improved Dirty Trick pretty early.
Holmes can't possibly be a Bard - he has all the Charisma of a slug.
Holmes can't possibly be a Bard - he has all the Charisma of a slug.
Not true. Sherlock Holmes was a master of disguise, and could turn on the charm when he needed to. In one story, he actually romanced and became engaged to a servant girl, just to gain access to someone's estate.
As I said, Inquisitor with the Memory Subdomain. Already has Disguise as a class skill, and with the Infiltrator archetype, he can add wisdom to Bluff and Diplomacy.
thank you for repeating this 3 times. Yes you are right a inquisitor could work for this idea. I don't like the divine theme for it but it is a good idea.
Holmes can't possibly be a Bard - he has all the Charisma of a slug.
I have to agree with this partially. I feel Holmes is more super intelligent then Charismatic, but he is a master of disguise also. I like him with a high wisdom and intelligence more than charisma
There's also a rogue investigator archetype
the rogue build seems very much set up for the skill awesomeness. I like bard for a little utility spellcasting but I am still torn on what I feel fills him out best. So many options!
Clearly he's an Investigator with the Great Detective archtype. ;)
Clearly he's an Investigator with the Great Detective archtype. ;)
Awww i was all set to recommend this but you beat me too it. Definately go with this if you can FelwynGD. The investigator with the 'great detective' archetype is pretty much designed to fit the sherlock holmes trope. Its precisely what you want. Not kind of sort of, or you can make it work thematically, Owen (lead designer) basically sat down and said 'if i want to play as sherlock holmes, what abilities would I want'.
But can you do Hercule Poirot ?
Anyway of getting that PDF w/out paying for it. Couldnt find it on srd
I am a fan of the movies (saw the first one on opening day), have seen all of the BBC show episodes, and am currently working my way through a tome of Sir ACD's complete works on Holmes. One import aspect of Holmes is that he seems to be able to perceive things with his eyes as though he had searched in with his hands, and he also seems to do so (in game terms) as a swift action when it would require another a turn. I think perhaps that his ability to use Sense Motive based on clues uses intelligence, because his wisdom when it comes to people can sometimes seem lacking.
Anyway of getting that PDF w/out paying for it. Couldnt find it on srd
Sent you a PM Felwyn. :)
Due to Perception being tied to wisdom there is no way to build the BBC TV version of Sherlock. (he would have a low wisdom as sometimes he does not "get it" he is all logic... )
Bard (Detective) would be your best bet
i used a sherlok themed character once
ranger 5/rogue 5
perceptions (for search, smell, spot, listen)
survival (for track and investigate)
heal (for authopsis)
disable device
gather information
knowledges (nature, history, local, etc)
at the beginning was a great class, but the lazy gm skip the details... at the end he was a rgr 5/rog 5/ shadowdancer 7
I think both wis and int should be high. His insights on people do tilt toward sense motive. Ignoring or dumping wis would screw with this not to mention perception.
Sorry, that wasn´t the proposal of it!!
just talking about some ugly movies!!
The opposite of wise is to be foolish. I'd hardly call Sherlock a fool but i wouldnt call him that wise either. He just had a low charisma. He didn't understand the human interaction beyond quantitative data.
No he is quite foolish at times in the BBC show.. he just fails get how other people think sometimes, and yes low charisma because he just does not care.
for example, let me walk out with the killer and get in his taxi without telling ANYONE where I am going.. because I can out think him.. and ohhh this is going to be fun!
^^^ That is Foolish ^^^
Holmes would have to be at least 7th Level.
You have to have Leadership for Dr. Watson!
-TimD
P.S. On a more helpful note:
I’d go with either a Wizard (Diviner) with an arcane bond as an item or the earlier suggestions with the Investigator Archtypes. I would definitely aim for the Sleepless Detective & / or Loremaster though.
My basis is on the books, not a modern day interpretation on tv. And foolish at times doesn't make one a fool.The opposite of wise is to be foolish. I'd hardly call Sherlock a fool but i wouldnt call him that wise either. He just had a low charisma. He didn't understand the human interaction beyond quantitative data.No he is quite foolish at times in the BBC show.. he just fails get how other people think sometimes, and yes low charisma because he just does not care.
for example, let me walk out with the killer and get in his taxi without telling ANYONE where I am going.. because I can out think him.. and ohhh this is going to be fun!
^^^ That is Foolish ^^^
fair enough...
but in the TV show he does several VERY reckless things..
I loved the books, but I feel the BBC show version is "deeper" then the one presented in the books.
Clearly he's an Investigator with the Great Detective archtype. ;)
thank you so much the product is great!!
Clearly he's an Investigator with the Great Detective archtype. ;)thank you so much the product is great!!
Thanks Felwyn, I'm glad you like it!