Beyond NPC escalation to interaction?


Pathfinder Online

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

The devs have described how a small problem with wandering kobolds in a hex might, if not addressed, escalate into a kobold warren, organized raiding parties, other monsters moving in, et cetera.

Would it be possible to take that concept further and allow NPC forces to oppose the players on an equal footing? Instead of settlements, cities, kingdoms, and other such powerful social structures being the sole domain of PCs, allow computer driven characters to pursue similar development.

A lot has been made of how, in many theme park games you have a series of computer controlled static challenges to knock down until you reach the end of what has been built while in sandbox games you are opposed by other players and thus have ongoing dynamic challenges... but there is no INHERENT connection between 'computer controlled' and 'static'. It should be entirely possible to have dynamic challenges generated by the computer following the same options available to the players.

The benefit to such a system would be in providing powerful 'evil' opposition without enabling powerful griefing. If you encourage a player group to run an evil kingdom you are inherently handing them the tools to be epic griefers as well. If the computer runs an evil kingdom it does so within bounds set by the program... sure, it will send out raiding parties to burn your settlement down, but it will not seek out one particular player and destroy everything they do on an ongoing basis. You could also have things like a pre-built NPC kingdom occupying a newly added section of the map, kingdoms of orcs, minotaurs, or other races not available to PCs, dev interaction to direct an NPC kingdom to achieve some end, et cetera. In short, you can vastly increase the variation in challenges to the players WITHOUT having to do massive amounts of theme park content building... let the computer build the content in the same way players would.

It would also be a good way to pre-test how features might evolve and play out in ongoing use... set up a few computer controlled kingdoms on a test server, add in the new feature, speed up the clock so everything runs faster than normal... and you've got an advance simulation of what may happen with the new feature in regular play.

Goblin Squad Member

First, your definition of 'griefing' sounds as if it varies from what I understand as GW's definition of 'griefing'. Recommend having an open mind about that. We can use the same word to mean different things and while each meaning has validity only the Developer's meaning has real bearing. My understanding is if Player versus Player interaction is 'meaningful'(in the official interpretation of meaningful) then it isn't griefing. This is discussed in depth elsewhere and your contribution to the discussion is encouraged.

Second the designers are still exploring what is possible to achieve with their development tools, so anything we talk about here might be unfeasible for technical reasons, but for the sake of creative conversation we can estimate whether it is probable or not.

So all that said it is certainly possible for system controlled assets like goblins (I do not know whether Kobolds are to be in the game or not) to actually build structures and populate goblin towns and even kingdoms, to have their own champions and agendas.

It is not difficult to devise AI systems building on AI systems and random tables feeding random tables. My understanding is that GoblinWorks has at least one programmer/engineer who has done fairly advanced work in robotics and AI. Much is possible with that, it is just a question of how far the technology can extend to accomodate the specific requirements of such a wonderful idea.

Goblin Squad Member

Here is an important thread for understanding the concept of Griefing in PFO

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Actually, I think I've got a pretty good handle on the planned definition of 'griefing' for PFO.

As to the main topic, the complexity of any 'AI' needed for computer controlled kingdoms would depend on how difficult it will be to build and maintain such social structures. From the write-ups I've seen thus far it seems like they are leaving most of that to player interaction... so long as you get a bunch of players to agree to it the actual construction and survival (barring outside influences) of settlements seems almost automatic. Obviously, citing of settlements, what resources they develop first, how they are defended, and other factors will require more careful planning by players and thus some degree of AI for a computer controlled settlement to do effectively, but overall it doesn't seem like 'NPC kingdom building logic' would need be very complicated at all.

Thus far there is much more complexity around character development. Now, if they were to try to have computer controlled NPCs go through the same character development and gameplay as PCs THAT would require some sophisticated AI logic. However, I don't think they need to go there. NPCs can just 'spring up' (i.e. move in from areas outside the map)... with fully developed abilities and agendas as needed.

Goblin Squad Member

I guess I envision escalation ending at 'army on the march' size, not 'city built lets grow big enough to found another' size. Seems unbalanced at that point, unless there's good npc escalations somewhere too.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

It's really just taking some of the elements of a 4x strategy game where the AI opponents are growing their own civilizations and building armies, making alliances, setting up trades, and warmongering.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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If the NPCs are less effective than the best players, they are irrelevant. If they are more effective, they are overpowering. That's a very fine line to try to walk, indeed.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Richter Bones, yep basically 'massively multiplayer Civilization'... though the same concepts could be expanded in very different ways.

For example, most theme park MMOs have a series of scripted quests that every player can go through. The devs spend a lot of time writing these up and putting them in the game. Which is a complete waste of time. There is absolutely no reason these could not be dynamically generated... and tied in to game events to have real meaningful impact on the world. A simple random generator could be set up to generate UNIQUE 'rescue XYZ', 'recover ABC', 'deliver 123 to 456', et cetera type quests. So, to take the 'rescue' quest as an example, say the game randomly generates an event where the NPC blacksmith for your settlement has been abducted by goblins. The mayor appoints you to rescue them. Off you go on your quest. If you fail then the settlement has no blacksmith for a while. If you succeed the blacksmith gives you a discount in the future. Either way it is a one time quest with a real impact on game events... as opposed to thousands of players going through exactly the same quest and it making no real difference whether they succeed or not.

Build a solid quest generator and you've got an endless supply of actually meaningful quests for players to pursue instead of having to spend all your dev resources building static quests manually.

Again, there is no reason that computer controlled NPC content must be 'static'. There could be endless dynamic content generated by the game itself... in addition to everything the players can cook up.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson wrote:

Build a solid quest generator and you've got an endless supply of actually meaningful quests for players to pursue instead of having to spend all your dev resources building static quests manually.

Again, there is no reason that computer controlled NPC content must be 'static'. There could be endless dynamic content generated by the game itself... in addition to everything the players can cook up.

I don't think it can be so easy... The evolution of the quest system is in it's highest form I believe In Guild Wars 2's Dynamic Events system. That system is about x3 denser than most other mmorpgs quest content and it still fails to be very dynamic or feel very different from a normal "watch the meter + fedex 10 rats" quest. And it took a big dev team to produce. It also leads to more bugs emerging the more complex it is and hence Anet's QA team is fairly substantial and integrated/aka embedded into the other teams?

The only system I can think of where it is in the scope of PFO, is to recruit the alpha backers with "Monster Cast" and other devs to coordinate mobs and create some world events? That seems more possible and more dynamic if coordinated?

For interest: The Repopulation has an interesting sounding mission/quest system worth a look: Missions Overview

Maybe I am blinkered in my consideration, because, I think the Contract system has all the necessary potential, already?

Goblin Squad Member

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This game is about players making meaningful decisions. NPC's independently building advanced power blocks runs counter to this idea. However, I have proposed in the past and will continue to promote the idea of Players promoting and advancing NPC groups. Your Kobold wouldn't develop beyond wide spread Kobold camps on their own. But, Players could choose to do missions that would advance the Kobold civilization, leading to more organized Kobold, more powerful Kobolds, and possibly even Kobold settlements. But this would require the continuous effort of many players and other players could work against it setting back Kobold civilization greatly.

Goblin Squad Member

Hark wrote:
This game is about players making meaningful decisions. NPC's independently building advanced power blocks runs counter to this idea. However, I have proposed in the past and will continue to promote the idea of Players promoting and advancing NPC groups. Your Kobold wouldn't develop beyond wide spread Kobold camps on their own. But, Players could choose to do missions that would advance the Kobold civilization, leading to more organized Kobold, more powerful Kobolds, and possibly even Kobold settlements. But this would require the continuous effort of many players and other players could work against it setting back Kobold civilization greatly.

I support this idea, I would love to have another option for the escalation other than kill everything. Helping out the kobolds set themselves up peacefully and your company has friends in them or a peaceful neighbor for your kingdom. Alternately if you’re an evil settlement perhaps you could subjugate them. Either option should have both positive and negative ramifications.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

I would also like to see something as Hark mentioned. Maybe even to the extent of helping the escalation of similarly aligned NPCs in order to integrate them into your own settlements, like having options to upgrade guards to a NPC monster type or something similar.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I would also like to see those same kobold neighbors you helped build take over mining resources that if your settlement touches would break down diplomacy between your settlements. If you want those resources you are now going to have to negotiate a deal. If another settlement tries to infringe on those resources the kobolds will expect your assistance in protecting them.

This way settlements will have to keep their populace in check to make sure they are not violating property rights. Violation, of course, could lead to war with those neighbors you worked so hard to build up.

Failure to protect them could also lead to loss of trade goods and poor relations making future contracts difficult.

Goblin Squad Member

This is great, I've been thinking about this sort of thing.

I'd like to see the ability to enter into contracts with NPCs, both individuals and groups, pretty much the same way player can. The likely hood that they'll actually stick to the contract would be dependent on their alignment. This would give defeated monsters the ability to surrender if met with overwhelming force, they could then offer the PCs a reward for sparing the, or even become loyal minions of the PCs. Likewise, defeated PCs could enter an agreement for their lives, or even be forced into a contract by a powerful monster.

Players could spare some goblins and indenture them into aiding you on your adventures. Towns could enlist the aid of a roaming heard of centaurs to drive out an orc encampment. A dragon could force some foolhardy adventurers to sabotage a city's ballistas so that he may ransack it with ease. Likewise a dragon or lizard folk warband could be enticed to help protect a city for an regular offering of the city's food and wealth. A powerful lich could appear in a castle and demand rule of the kingdom lest he unleash his undead hoards upon the land.

Perhaps NPCs could even create contracts with each other. That same lich could have enticed a pack of gnolls to help him build his undead army. A mummy lord could seek out a sphinx to guard his treasure.

Goblin Squad Member

Anyone considered having actually people "playing" DM in the online game ?

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

There has been discussion about that as a possibility in the distant future but maybe more in instanced dungeons or something.

However, from the interview on PFOFan.com

Ryan Dancey wrote:
We have a rough idea that from time to time we'll run a moderated event where the Alpha players can take the role of monsters in a big fight against PCs. Beyond that we have not worked out any details.

Goblin Squad Member

Vancent wrote:

This is great, I've been thinking about this sort of thing.

I'd like to see the ability to enter into contracts with NPCs, both individuals and groups, pretty much the same way player can. (...)

Perhaps NPCs could even create contracts with each other. That same lich could have enticed a pack of gnolls to help him build his undead army. A mummy lord could seek out a sphinx to guard his treasure.

Player contracts with NPC would work like NPC given missions in other MMOs and could add to the storytelling. Contracts among NPCs sounds to me like an alliance between orcs and trolls to attack a settlement or something like that? Or maybe even a contract with the kobolds to mine some area... I like this idea.

How about NPC bounty hunters in some places as well?

The perspective of making contracts (and succeding) with NPCs can open a possibility of changing NPCs reaction to your char. So if you help the kobolds with some contracts they can just stop being agressive with you in a certain tribe for example.

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