Ryric, I appreciate what you've posted. I am looking for RAW which tackles the 'Two Actions Simultaneously' issue. Its weird, but its a fringe case restricted to Use-activated items, which "are subsumed in the items use." If I'm using the item as part of a Bardic Performance, does that also activate the item? I'm still looking for the rules, I'm not worried if the answer is "No" I can just launch the Spell effect in Round 3.
If I were playing at your table, your restrictions are reasonable, as is the price.
A Small bit, completely unimportant to the over all discussion:
The bard can't even cast a quickened spell in the same round he starts performing (only one swift action a round). But adding already designed abilities to items is pretty straightforward, and the bard would have to hold the bow of the violin to use it.
Only one Swift action per round, Yes. But the Bard is explicitly allowed to choose the speed at which he launches his Performance. So I can Swift cast a spell, and then as a Move or Standard action begin a Bardic Performance:
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
I've spent a lot of time with this class (I'm switching schools, so I have tons of time to waste waiting for admission). This came across my 'To Check' list and the rule is clear on this.
What might be annoying for some is that casters can Swift cast Spells that take 1 Round. SKR printed the errata on it, and its clearly yes. So I can Swift cast Summon Monster VI, Start a Bardic Performance as a Standard action, and then still have a Move action.
What I still have a question on, and was going to post about soon, is: Does Quickening a spell with a casting time of 1 Round change its casting time?
Thanks again for engaging this conversation in a helpful way :)
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Actually on a more realistic basis, it'll probably just be more things to argue about. :)If not you can wait about three months for the Ultimate campaign book, where there should be the final answer:
I know, but he want "a RAW answer".
I agree with most of SKR opinions, but strongly disagree with some of them, to make an example the ability to craft things at a CL higher than yours. That is RAW and RAI but not something that I will allow in my games (and the GMs I know feel the same). But at the same time I don't use that opinion when discussing the RAW of making magic items.
Paulcynic has decided that "The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide." is irrelevant and that the price table is what matter. At that point we are in disagreement on what is the base of the RAW. Pretty useless to further discuss it.
Maybe that book will clear if the table take precedence on the price of magic items of if confronting with other items take precedence, maybe it will not.
I don't play in Paulcynic so not a big deal.
His tone of "if you don't agree with me you are wrong and stupid" is a bit annoying but not the worse I have seen.
My opening post has the same problem with its opening BTW.
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Your item is use activated, you begin a performance with your violin expending 1 round of performance and it creates the illusory image. At bard13+ this is a free action to activate. This image lasts indefinitely until you want it to end and still follows the spell mechanics for requiring another round of performance to change its type.
a) As he is activating a item that duplicate a spell what is pertinent in the time needed to start a bardic performance?
b) A bardic performance is not the same thing as using a violin, lute or anything. Only countersong and distraction require a perform check.
"Distraction relies on visual components." and has no audible components.
For several other abilities the bard can choose between using a audible or visual component. So there is no direct link between using a instrument and using a bardic performance.
Khrysaor, this is awesome :) This is a useful way to discuss the ICR.
Your item is use activated, you begin a performance with your violin expending 1 round of performance and it creates the illusory image. At bard13+ this is a free action to activate. This image lasts indefinitely until you want it to end and still follows the spell mechanics for requiring another round of performance to change its type.Huh, I think you're right. I just assumed that once I stopped using the Violin, hence stopped maintaining a performance as a free action, that it would then deactivate. If an enemy tore your cloak off, you'd certainly lose the benefits, it would make sense that the spell effects cloak would cease as well because you've lost the ability to "mentally activate" it. No one is controlling the cloak, so it shuts down. I'll have to look more into it.
clarification note: speaking only of the Exquisite Accompaniment power.
Use activated: you cast the spell when you use the item [and that is using the skill perform, not making a bard performance).
If your violin is use activated it cast the spell every time it is used, the spell duration is based on the CL of the violin. 20 rounds for each activation of Exquisite Accompaniment with a Cl 20 item.
You can start multiple instances of the spell activating the violin in multiple rounds, but they would maintain the same bardic performance.
Constant: you get 1 constant effect. So you will constantly have a a "glowing construct of magic in the form of a" violin following you and playing "as you direct it".
Can be a bit problematic.
It will maintain any single bardic performance you have made indefinitely. It can have the curious effect of maintaining it forever even if the bard is paralyzed or dead.
Honestly Mr. cynic, I can only state that if this is for a guide, you should advocate for the ring of wizardry 3 and 4 as additional enchantments to your existing rings, and then purchase quickening rods.
Its far more practical. There are no conflicts with GM's, the items are RAW, and it actually works out to be far more flexible.
For the record, I don't think your items are overpowered. In truth, I think they are a bit on the weak end of things.
Honestly Mr. cynic, I can only state that if this is for a guide, you should advocate for the ring of wizardry 3 and 4 as additional enchantments to your existing rings, and then purchase quickening rods.
Its far more practical. There are no conflicts with GM's, the items are RAW, and it actually works out to be far more flexible.
For the record, I don't think your items are overpowered. In truth, I think they are a bit on the weak end of things.
I was convinced few posts back :) Even if I explicitly state that its a list of suggested custom items, I'm sure it will confuse the guide.
At this point the thread is simply a mental exercise, where some debate over the ICR has left me with a better understanding of the actual mechanics. So it was helpful and useful over all :)
His tone of "if you don't agree with me you are wrong and stupid" is a bit annoying but not the worse I have seen.
My opening post has the same problem with its opening BTW.
I apologize that things went that way bud, truly. I now understand that you were suggesting a method by which to eyeball the prices. I don't think that I could justify prices to my players based on your method, but thank you for presenting it.
As to the bit about the Perform check, my entire assumption of Violin use, and whether or not it activates during a Performance is a specific topic that I will be moving to its own thread in the Rules Questions section. I haven't found all of the information I would need to disqualify it, nor to qualify it.
As to my style of discussion, its my (continuing) experience that emotions can be easily misrepresented in a text-based forum where disagreements are expected. And so I do my best to present facts as I understand them, have others do the same, and study what they're are saying. Personally, I don't really care if a rule lands the way I would prefer, just that I understand the rule. If I wanted to power game, I could break any RPG down to its fundamentals, and exploit from there. So restrictive rules are fine, there's a way to game them anyhow. But that's Not what I'm all about :P I would rather simply play with the rules as written to avoid such arguments over "should" and "Ought" that often divide and dampen the spirits of many a Game Group.
After spending a couple of days studying the ICR, my conclusion is, well it already spelled out above.
Hope to see some familiar faces in the new Bard thread that I'll post in a couple of days :) Be well guys.