Coincidence or not, I do find it interesting that quite a few of those talking about TPKs & overall AP difficulty use not only 20-pt buy, but 25. It does make me wonder if that pc-optimization view causes those players to have a false sense of invulnerability.
My groups use 15-point buy. The Paizo APs we've played have been challenging and hard at times. But you're playing ADVENTURES for high stakes. It's supposed to be hard. My players have never felt cheated or that the deck was stacked against them.
And while there's nothing wrong with optimizing PCs, it doesn't negate the need for smart tactical play. I've seen "tougher" encounters resolved handily through smart tactics and "weaker" encounters result in PC deaths because the bad guys used good tactics or the PCs got too cocky.
I'm finally going to chime in, because I haven't found any of the AP's that particularly nasty (admittedly running AE RotRL and I heard it's been toned down), but Carrion Crown really is designed to churn through PCs.
** spoiler omitted **
So yeah, Carrion Crown seems to delight in killing PCs with "save or you're dead" moments, and I despise those as both a GM and a player.
Just ran this/these encounter/s by the by.
The fall is only 100 feet across the first bridge and 150 across the second, not 300. Nasty, but survivable (it's the Swim checks that get ya.)
The HUGE (not large) Air Elemental is first, and can be bypassed by ringing the doorbell, funnily enough. So long as you have the guard uniform it's possible to bypass the Flesh Golem Hound AND Air Elemental.
The rope bridge only requires an Acrobatics check to cross at FULL SPEED, not just to cross at all.
The "DC 28 Strength Check only!" door can be opened with a DC 30 Disable Device or again, by ringing the doorbell so the Unseen Servant lets you in (again, assuming the guard uniform from the room before is picked up).
However:
How it went down for my party:
We get to Schloss Caromarc and the Eidolon rolls Perception to check for traps on the main gate. I hold in a chortle as he rolls a 30.
Of course, they didn't ask for someone to roll as well, so my character is sent in to get his Disable Device on, whereupon he is grabbed by the Air Elemental and almost chucked off the bridge (everyone else managed to kill it before it got him).
Then the Erinyes happened, and as my logic goes a "hatred for holy symbols" pretty much means the Cleric has a big red target on his chest. Cleric falls off the bridge trying to run back (hilariously, even the Fighter/Barbarian in Full Plate makes it with a -2) and casts Feather Fall on himself. So now he's a slowly floating, HELPLESS target and he gets pincushioned down to 1 HP before he promptly lands in the after and starts sinking and getting swept downstream at 80 feet per round.
Only reason any of 'em survived was because I made a snap judgement that, for this time at least, RAW (as far as I could tell) trumped RAI and the Eidolon could bring people back with him using Maker's Call if he grabbed ahold of 'em. Figured it was a neat ability and wasn't OP (and warned the Summoner not to overuse it).
Pissed of Cleralchemist then hits the Erinyes in the face with a Dispelling Bomb (after failing a first dispel), though by this point the nasty bastard had brought everyone into critical condition.
Plus side: Comfy beds nearby, and the Cleric had JUUUUUST enough spells to heal everyone up to full (except the Summoner who's still missing 2 HP).
Fun encounter, though I seriously thought they were gonna get slaughtered. Players loved it even though they thought they didn't have a chance after seeing what it could do.
On a side note reading back it looks like a lot of focus is on the GMPC, which makes me look kinda bad, but this was pretty much the only thing he'd done besides heal and chuck bombs at mooks in like 4 sessions, and Maudril (the Summoner) is the one who came out lookin' like a hero to everyone else for saving their heal dispenser so I think it worked out fine.
Had the second Dispel failed the Cleric was likely to eat it, followed by the rest of the PCs.
Not like they can run. Greater Teleport at will is fun like that.
It's one reason I'll choose to run a GMPC Paladin for the group. He'll act as a damage sponge, and also have a good amount of healing. (I tend to go for a high charisma and constitution in this case.) The Hospitaler is a good choice for this scenario. Best of all, with this type of NPC, you have someone who is good for helping keep the PCs alive... without taking center stage for fighting.
We were going to have someone join as a Paladin/Ranger this session as a secondary healer (and a dedicated archer, which would've screwed this Erinyes 100%), but a family member of his died and he couldn't make it.
Coincidence or not, I do find it interesting that quite a few of those talking about TPKs & overall AP difficulty use not only 20-pt buy, but 25. It does make me wonder if that pc-optimization view causes those players to have a false sense of invulnerability.
My groups use 15-point buy. The Paizo APs we've played have been challenging and hard at times. But you're playing ADVENTURES for high stakes. It's supposed to be hard. My players have never felt cheated or that the deck was stacked against them.
And while there's nothing wrong with optimizing PCs, it doesn't negate the need for smart tactical play. I've seen "tougher" encounters resolved handily through smart tactics and "weaker" encounters result in PC deaths because the bad guys used good tactics or the PCs got too cocky.
I've noticed this too.
I run small parties. Very small. But being small parties the two PCs have to coordinate beforehand, have to decide how this will work, what classes they'll use, what weakness will be covered where and how, who will have what role when, and general tactics that work best for these characters.
And we tend not to have problems. Difficult encounters are difficult but two PCs can think tactically and work through things. Interesting, impressive, and inventive solutions come out of a single player when there's nobody to veto an idea out of "but then I don't look good".
My player (singular) goes into this treating each adventuring party like a tiny army. And tiny armies don't completely neglect defense and diplomacy in order to maximize offense.
...I'm finally going to chime in, because I haven't found any of the AP's that particularly nasty (admittedly running AE RotRL and I heard it's been toned down), but Carrion Crown really is designed to churn through PCs.
** spoiler omitted **
So yeah, Carrion Crown seems to delight in killing PCs with "save or you're dead" moments, and I despise those as both a GM and a player.
Just ran this/these encounter/s by the by.
** spoiler omitted **
However:
** spoiler omitted **
hmm are we reading the same AP here ? any move over the bridge = check, plus extra checks for being struck by arrows. with slowed movement since that bridge is swaying..... (nevermind me feeling nasty, why doesn't the "archer" set the bridge on fire with her flaming arrows ? ). for your average wizard/sorc/cleric/oracle/alchemist that sounds like an untrained acrobatics DC with quite some encumberance...
other bridge : bypasing the door (whatever means) triggers the elemental and there is not a single clue that the tattered frayed uniform is a helpful bypass in any way... Nevermind that you have to dig it up in a room where you have just been fighting trolls... probably with acid or fire based magic.....
sorry... CC is a meatgrinder. I like the story of "Trial", the implementation in itself is still very hard on the party
Yeah, we Fireballed the trolls, and the GM ruled all the uniforms were destroyed, so that wasn't an option.
Just following up because we started Book 4, and my fighter died *again*:
So I went to the stables (alone) to drop off the horses, was promptly surprised and flanked by an assassin and his two rogue ghouls, and took 146 h.p. before getting an action. Considering our 100 h.p. AC 29 paladin almost got taken out during the rescue mission, it's just another example of Carrion Crown being an, "If you let your guard down EVER, for even an instant, you're DEAD" AP. But you kind of get used to it. When the ghouls popped out, I just started laughing and said, "Really? Again?!?"
hmm are we reading the same AP here ? any move over the bridge = check, plus extra checks for being struck by arrows. with slowed movement since that bridge is swaying..... (nevermind me feeling nasty, why doesn't the "archer" set the bridge on fire with her flaming arrows ? ). for your average wizard/sorc/cleric/oracle/alchemist that sounds like an untrained acrobatics DC with quite some encumberance...
Whoops, that one was my mistake then. The other bridge had that wording I believe.
But there is no halved speed because it's swaying (unless that's a usual rule buried somewhere I don't know about).
I remember what I did now, I said anyone with a +5 in Acrobatics could take 10 by moving half speed across it. Doyp.
other bridge : bypasing the door (whatever means) triggers the elemental and there is not a single clue that the tattered frayed uniform is a helpful bypass in any way... Nevermind that you have to dig it up in a room where you have just been fighting trolls... probably with acid or fire based magic.....
The guard uniform requires a Perception check to locate. Your players are EXTREMELY admirable at ignoring metagaming (and their characters aren't very smart either) if you say "Oh here's a tattered guard uniform" and they don't immediately go "Well this may be useful".
As well, the uniform is covered in rubble, so at best the fringes would be scorched by fire based magic, and on top of that there's nothing there that says "Hey, fire magic destroys everything in this room!". So it's you making things needlessly more difficult in an already difficult AP.
sorry... CC is a meatgrinder. I like the story of "Trial", the implementation in itself is still very hard on the party
Yes, it's bad enough without people adding to it.
You can't go "This s!$+ is WAY too HARD!" and then make it more difficult by having the PCs inadvertently destroy their way around multiple of the "Way too hard" encounters.
hmm, for one, I never allow take "10" if there is a sizable risk involved. Chars under stress = sizable risk. There may be a long debate about it. page 86, main rulebook
personally, for the upper bridge, I'd refer to pages 172 and 193 of the core rules (difficult ground = usually skill check involved in crossing = 2xmovement + half movement from acrobatics. ). Acrobatics use always reduces one to half speed ( or a +10 difficulty). RAW.
the drop from the stone bridge G2 is a 200' drop as well. splosh and who exactly cares ? G3 states 200'. ignore 20' for water, 20' of non lethal damge.... = 16D6 of lethal...app 54 points ? before probably drowning in medium/heavy armour, in turbulent waters ? pretty deadlyat level 7. After having been struck by an elementalˆˆ
oh, and troll hoards... my players usually go for "fullnuclear blast" (after 20 years playing with me). Which also might explain our by now pretty distinctive "I know, but my PC doesn't" attitude. Never mind the players rarely going for "mending" or craft "sewing"
Nothing bad about making it easier on the players, but as written... very tough cookie.
personally , I absolutely change stuff for a fun and entertaining story, but the thread aims at "are the APs too hard"
My brother played part one of CC, the group then refused any more involvement. he said " we must have lost half of the lecturer's students while finishing"....
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Yeah, we Fireballed the trolls, and the GM ruled all the uniforms were destroyed, so that wasn't an option.
Just following up because we started Book 4, and my fighter died *again*:
** spoiler omitted **
Similar thing happened to me.