Can it be done? Can a party consisting of entirely wizards work? I think it would make for a really cool villain group to have the players go after these wizards individually and face them all at once; tank wizard, support wizard, damage wizard, utility wizard, etc.
A lot of people on these forums love building effective characters, so if you think this can be done, shoe me what you've got.
Parameters:
-Party of 3-5 characters that would face off against a player group of the same number.
-They all are wizards, except perhaps for a single Witch, because Wizards don't get healing.
-The "lowest possible" level for the makeup to be effective (whatever you judge necessary. 5th-7th would be optimal because that would make them the right level for my current groups, but they can always be saved for later).
Build a single one or all of them, it's all good. I'm interested to see how people carry this out.
Healing is just about the only real issue for a party of wizards. So one of the party needs to be optimized for Use Magic Device.
So take "Dangerously Curious" as a trait and have cha as a secondary stat of at least 14 for a total of +7 to UMD at level 1. Throw a "guidance" on each wand check, then once you use a wand successfully that's a +10 on a CLW wand check, which means you have a 50% chance to succeed. Then you just have to be able to afford enough wands to keep the other wizards alive. If you also grab the "Magical aptitude" feat, you gain another +2 on the UMD check. And if the GM allows it, another wizard can aid you for another +2. There are some who believe that "masterwork tools" (in the form of books or scrolls with hints/tips, etc.) also work with UMD, so it is conceivable that at level 1 you can work up to a +16 on your UMD check.
Have another wizard be human and grab "augment summoning" and while it might be tricky to get through the first couple of levels... by level 3 you're gonna be kicking down doors and taking names.
Also I forgot to mention, I do 15 point buy in my games.
Also I forgot to mention, I do 15 point buy in my games.
That's plenty for a wizard to have solid int and decent cha for the UMD approach. Heck, he might even get a 16 in cha for another +1 to the UMD check.
Are we talking an all-wizard adventuring party that gets its hands dirty, or more like a conspiracy of wizards? Wizards do tend to recruit minions.
Well, I assumed the OP meant starting at level 1.
If we're starting at a level where wizards can have minions...
Well, of course a party of wizards can do anything by then.
Infernal healing (and greater) are wizard spells.
Infernal healing (and greater) are wizard spells.
Evil ones. Yes.
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Can it be done? Can a party consisting of entirely wizards work? I think it would make for a really cool villain group to have the players go after these wizards individually and face them all at once; tank wizard, support wizard, damage wizard, utility wizard, etc.
A lot of people on these forums love building effective characters, so if you think this can be done, shoe me what you've got.
Parameters:
-Party of 3-5 characters that would face off against a player group of the same number.
-They all are wizards, except perhaps for a single Witch, because Wizards don't get healing.
-The "lowest possible" level for the makeup to be effective (whatever you judge necessary. 5th-7th would be optimal because that would make them the right level for my current groups, but they can always be saved for later).Build a single one or all of them, it's all good. I'm interested to see how people carry this out.
Here's how I would do it:
1. Summoning-focused Wizard with Spell Focus (Conjuration) + Improved Spell Focus + Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning, all other spells would be battlefield control spells such as Pit spells and black tentacles, etc.2. Stealthy Wizard with the Shadowcaster archetype and the Mage of the Veil arcane school, focuses on illusions and buffs that up his sneakiness
3. Arcane Bomber Wizard who uses his bombs and casts lots of Dex-boosting and damage-boosting spells on himself, he's the ranged damage dealer. Alternatively to this, a Spellslinger Wizard (though I personally hate guns in fantasy, so I'd shy away).
4. A Scrollmaster Wizard who wears Medium armor and has the Arcane Armor Mastery line of feats and Combat Casting. He carries lots of scrolls of spells like Bull's Strength and True Strike, using them as weapons or shields until they're almost destroyed and then casting from them. He'd be the main "melee" fighter. This is mostly suggested because it's hilarious and confuses enemies. He could also know and use a lot of polymorphing spells to turn into much stronger creatures.
5. A Necromancer Wizard who focuses on debuffing enemies with Necro spells and probably has an undead minion or two. He'd also be the one using Infernal Healing spells on the party.
Does that work?
You'd have to impose a time restriction for each player to make their mind up. I could see 1 hour rounds easily with all wizards. You can make it really interesting and give them each 6 seconds of real time to make a decision.
Are we talking an all-wizard adventuring party that gets its hands dirty, or more like a conspiracy of wizards? Wizards do tend to recruit minions.
An all-wizard adventuring party that would be used as villains. I have *no thoughts* on backstory or set-up but they would basically be a small group of Evil/Neutral magic-supremacists that see themselves as completely above non-magic users, which plays into the fact that they can accomplish (in theory) every that non-wizards can.
Here's how I would do it:
1. Summoning-focused Wizard with Spell Focus (Conjuration) + Improved Spell Focus + Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning, all other spells would be battlefield control spells such as Pit spells and black tentacles, etc.
2. Stealthy Wizard with the Shadowcaster archetype and the Mage of the Veil arcane school, focuses on illusions and buffs that up his sneakiness
3. Arcane Bomber Wizard who uses his bombs and casts lots of Dex-boosting and damage-boosting spells on himself, he's the ranged damage dealer. Alternatively to this, a Spellslinger Wizard (though I personally hate guns in fantasy, so I'd shy away).
4. A Scrollmaster Wizard who wears Medium armor and has the Arcane Armor Mastery line of feats and Combat Casting. He carries lots of scrolls of spells like Bull's Strength and True Strike, using them as weapons or shields until they're almost destroyed and then casting from them. He'd be the main "melee" fighter. This is mostly suggested because it's hilarious and confuses enemies. He could also know and use a lot of polymorphing spells to turn into much stronger creatures.
5. A Necromancer Wizard who focuses on debuffing enemies with Necro spells and probably has an undead minion or two. He'd also be the one using Infernal Healing spells on the party.
Does that work?
That totally works! A Conjurer and Necromancer could float the role of Tank for a few turns (with summoned/raised creatures) when necessary.
The Abjurer/Scrollmaster and Illusionist would focus their skills on Use Magic Device. The Abjurer would focus on healing himself in a pinch while the Illusionist would run/teleport around the field healing his allies and casting Image spells to confuse the players. The Spellbomber is probably the best ranged damage dealer for the Wizard, throwing out bombs while the Abjurer closes in, possibly continuing to use them if the Abjurer gets his resistance high enough, and can always falls back on Evocation when he needs more accuracy.
Rule Question: If the Illusionist created an image of himself attack a player while the Abjurer atacked on the opposite side, would the Abjurer get a flanking bonus to hit?
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A conjurer with the Acadamae Graduate feat, so that he can summon as a Standard action; and the Augment set. In case of combat, he starts spamming summoned monsters. Ideally he's True Neutral so he can apply all four different templates to summoned monsters; Smite [Alignment] on an augmented Leopard is pretty nasty.
There's a Diviner, whose job it is to win initiative and start battlefield control immediately. He could have the Lookout teamwork feat, but only if the others take it too; in that case they've got a pretty hefty surprise round.
Their face guy would be an Enchanter; with Cosmopolitan and good social skills, he could also be the UMD guy.
Maybe an Evoker with the Admixture-Rime Spell-Fireball-Magical Lineage combo to do suppression? If you want to be really annoying, he could constantly ready actions to interrupt PC casters.
Illusionists make logical scouts, using Invisibility. Although a raven familiar is also a good scout, since tiny creatures get good bonuses to Stealth anyway. But if the owner also has Stealth, Perception and illusions, he could do a great job of decoying and manipulating the enemy before the battle even begins; enticing them to split up so the wizards can apply Divide And Conquer tactics.
A transmuter Tech Guy feels nice too; there's some spells to support it (Crafter's Fortune, Mending, Fabricate). Give him Minor Creation as well, to cheaply make herbal poisons. Make this the alchemy guy. Eventually this guy will be the primary item crafter and end up making golems.
Necromancer BBEGs don't really come into their own until level 7 (Enervation), but are flavorful as heck. His responsibilities could incluse raising zombies as minions with longer duration than conjured monsters.
The abjurer could be a Panzer-Mancer build, with loads of buff spells; it's his job to stand in front of the others until the summoned monsters take his place. He needs to be sturdy and should probably have Acrobatics 3, in case he needs to go Full Defense.
A conjurer with the Acadamae Graduate feat, so that he can summon as a Standard action; and the Augment set. In case of combat, he starts spamming summoned monsters. Ideally he's True Neutral so he can apply all four different templates to summoned monsters; Smite [Alignment] on an augmented Leopard is pretty nasty.
There's a Diviner, whose job it is to win initiative and start battlefield control immediately. He could have the Lookout teamwork feat, but only if the others take it too; in that case they've got a pretty hefty surprise round.
Their face guy would be an Enchanter; with Cosmopolitan and good social skills, he could also be the UMD guy.
Maybe an Evoker with the Admixture-Rime Spell-Fireball-Magical Lineage combo to do suppression? If you want to be really annoying, he could constantly ready actions to interrupt PC casters.
Illusionists make logical scouts, using Invisibility. Although a raven familiar is also a good scout, since tiny creatures get good bonuses to Stealth anyway. But if the owner also has Stealth, Perception and illusions, he could do a great job of decoying and manipulating the enemy before the battle even begins; enticing them to split up so the wizards can apply Divide And Conquer tactics.
A transmuter Tech Guy feels nice too; there's some spells to support it (Crafter's Fortune, Mending, Fabricate). Give him Minor Creation as well, to cheaply make herbal poisons. Make this the alchemy guy. Eventually this guy will be the primary item crafter and end up making golems.
Necromancer BBEGs don't really come into their own until level 7 (Enervation), but are flavorful as heck. His responsibilities could incluse raising zombies as minions with longer duration than conjured monsters.
The abjurer could be a Panzer-Mancer build, with loads of buff spells; it's his job to stand in front of the others until the summoned monsters take his place. He needs to be sturdy and should probably have Acrobatics 3, in case he needs to go Full Defense.
The group will be 7th-8th level by the time they face them depending on exactly how I break up the story, so the Necromancer should be fine, but he can always have Skeletal Summons to conjure up some skellies in a pinch.
However, I might avoid using a Necromancer in this set-up when I actually employ it simply because the ultimate BBEG that these guys will work for (backround is starting to come together) will be a lich (or whatever that martial version of liches are called, the ones with the special armor), and these are are his Wizard minions that rise from the dead as he does. A Necromancer wouldn't seem as special in that situation.
So in that case, I'll probably have a Transmutation wizard as the primary buffer. Breakign it down:
Illusionist: Stealth, UMD Support, Control
Transmuter: Buffing, Skills, and other roles as needed
Abjurer/Scrollmaster: Melee damage and tanking
Conjurer: Summon Fodder, control, Infernal Healing
Arcane Bomber: Duke Nukem
The Arcane Bomber would use Electric damage on his bombs (for backstory I'm thinking he has some sort of backpack device that shocks him back to life artificially, so he focuses on electricity) and the Abjurer will typically focus his defenses on resisting that damage so the Bomber can keep on throwing bombs while he engages in melee and and the Conjurer and illusionist keep people from getting away.
Couldn't you make one of them a Samsaran? Bards have access to Arcane healing spells, which allows a Samsaran to add them to their spell list. With the Wizard favored class bonus, they can easily have the Bard's healing spells and then some.
If it doesn't remove the need for UMD, it certainly lessens it.
Samsaran don't really fit in my campaign world that well. As I'm developing this setting as players explore it, it's becoming harder to explainIf one were to show up, it would be a one-in-a-million situation that would be the center of an entire adventure in an of itself.
Really, though, I want to do this with purely wizard if I can. Witches were a maybe because they still used Int for casting, but I much prefer the idea of academic wizards that see their (the wizard's) approach to magic as superior to everything else. If just one of them focused on Spellcraft and UMD, they would be able to make any wand for any spell they couldn't ordinarily, which is what a wizard looking for a wizard solution to healing would do.
I also think Samsarans are a lot less likely to be powerhungry evil wizards. They would have seen a lot of the world and lived through many different walks of life, and as such have a much greater degree of empathy and understanding that there are ways of living other than being a wizard, at least in my interpretation of the race.
How deadly you would want this evil group? The indirect tactic of summoning and battlefield control can work, but if the wizard really wanto to kill the PCs 4 evokers with dazing rods would hardly fail.Yeah, dazing rod is really strong. Another fun option is the ryming rod. Entangled condition will wreck a lot of people and is less expensive.
Well the goal of this is to
A) Explore how Wizards can use magic to fill any needed role with the right build.
B) Create a party with an interesting strategy that would give players a real challenge.
Unrelated to the comment, but I did a little adding, and A 7th level Abjurer/Scrollmaster with nonmagic Silken Ceremonial armor (no spell failure) and Two scroll shields with 2nd level spells has a +5 bonus to AC right there, not even taking into account his ward school power, enchancement bonuses on the armor, Dexterity or Buff spells.
A Dexterity mod of +3 brings that to 18 AC unbuffed and no magic items.
Give his armor a +3 Enhancement Bonus, 21 AC
If he casts shield at the beginning of the fight, 25 AC
If he takes Dodge, that's 26.
One of his buddies casts Cat's Grace, 28.
He takes Dodge as a feat, 29.
Finally, if he uses his Ward Power, he can have 31 AC for 5 rounds.
Dang bro.
Just realized I added Dodge twice, so 30 actually.
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How deadly you would want this evil group? The indirect tactic of summoning and battlefield control can work, but if the wizard really wanto to kill the PCs 4 evokers with dazing rods would hardly fail.Yeah, dazing rod is really strong. Another fun option is the ryming rod. Entangled condition will wreck a lot of people and is less expensive.Well the goal of this is to
A) Explore how Wizards can use magic to fill any needed role with the right build.
B) Create a party with an interesting strategy that would give players a real challenge.Unrelated to the comment, but I did a little adding, and A 7th level Abjurer/Scrollmaster with nonmagic Silken Ceremonial armor (no spell failure) and Two scroll shields with 2nd level spells has a +5 bonus to AC right there, not even taking into account his ward school power, enchancement bonuses on the armor, Dexterity or Buff spells.
A Dexterity mod of +3 brings that to 18 AC unbuffed and no magic items.
Give his armor a +3 Enhancement Bonus, 21 AC
If he casts shield at the beginning of the fight, 25 AC
If he takes Dodge, that's 26.
One of his buddies casts Cat's Grace, 28.
He takes Dodge as a feat, 29.
Finally, if he uses his Ward Power, he can have 31 AC for 5 rounds.Dang bro.
How do you get the +5 from the scroll shield? You can't count both of them at the same time...
Why can't you? One either hand. Activating the ability is a free action, so it's not like it requires action economy. Two of them together would be 2 + 2 = 4, Silk armor brings it to +5
RAW it says a Scrollmaster can't use two scrollsword and that he can use a scrollsword in one hand and a scrollshield in the other it technically does not say anything about two scroll shields.
Even if RAI meant for dual-wielding scrollshields to be impossible, logically speaking I see no reason why it should be any less possible than holding two weapons.
And since Wizards have a low BAB and two shields is the difference of 2 point to AC I don't see why the limitations is even needed in gameplay terms.
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Shield bonus do not stack unles hte ability specifically allow it.Why can't you? One either hand. Activating the ability is a free action, so it's not like it requires action economy. Two of them together would be 2 + 2 = 4, Silk armor brings it to +5
RAW it says a Scrollmaster can't use two scrollsword and that he can use a scrollsword in one hand and a scrollshield in the other it technically does not say anything about two scroll shields.
Even if RAI meant for dual-wielding scrollshields to be impossible, logically speaking I see no reason why it should be any less possible than holding two weapons.
This. The two scrolls both offer the wizard shield bonuses, and those don't stack. You'll wanna use that second shield as a weapon instead.
Man, this would make a great PbP. No worries about people taking time on spell selection, spamming extra bodies into the combat and so forth.
I'd play it.
One of the advantages of an all wizard-group is shared spells. Assuming they can all cast animate dead, why NOT all cast animate dead. A Necromancer can then "grab" the other's minions when needed.
Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat shared among these guys could almost invalidate spell resistance - though at lower levels no PC is likely to have much anyway.
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One of the advantages of an all wizard-group is shared spells. Assuming they can all cast animate dead, why NOT all cast animate dead. A Necromancer can then "grab" the other's minions when needed.
Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat shared among these guys could almost invalidate spell resistance - though at lower levels no PC is likely to have much anyway.
Yep, Allied Spellcaster is definitely a good one. This could be a really fun group to build out in full, so I might take a crack at it this week sometime. I've done an all-rogue party before, which was pretty fun. Here are the links to those:
The Rogue as a Tank
The Rogue Archer
Rogue Support Caster
Rogue Damage-Dealing Caster
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We tried a similar thing, using witches.
Of course, we were running Age of Worms, so that may have contributed, but we still TPK'd during the Three-Fold-Whatever dungeon.
If we'd played a little smarter and slower, it could have worked, I think.
(Our "rogue witch" managed to flee the TPK, now that I recall)
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We tried a similar thing, using witches.
Of course, we were running Age of Worms, so that may have contributed, but we still TPK'd during the Three-Fold-Whatever dungeon.
If we'd played a little smarter and slower, it could have worked, I think.
(Our "rogue witch" managed to flee the TPK, now that I recall)
I feel like witches aren't quite as versatile as Wizards when it comes to the party ROLES they can fill. While their spell list is just as good if not a little bit better, their Hexes really reduce the versatility they have in combat, as almost all of them are buff/debuff focused, and some party roles just don't need that at all. If I was to do it with Witches, it would probably look something like this:
1. Standard witch as buffer/debuffer, focusing on throwing out as many hexes as possible the first few rounds, then cackling continuously and tossing down black tentacles or using rays of enfeeblement/sickening/exhaustion.
2. Gravewalker witch as Necromancer and Summoner, mostly doing battlefield control spells after she summons stuff.
3. Scarred Witch Doctor as front-liner, with Con-based casting and hexes, probably would get prehensile hair for this one and definitely Flight.
4. Hedge Witch as healer, obviously, focusing completely on buffing spells and hexes, and probably acting as party face.
5. Standard Witch as rogue/sneak, probably with Slumber and Disguise hexes, definitely would need some magic items to make this really feasible like cloak/boots of elvenkind, etc.
This party, even with five, would still be less versatile than a party of four Wizards, in my opinion. For example, the best polymorph spells, like Form of the Dragon, aren't available to Witches, so your front-line fighter will have to rely on other means to become super strong and take lots of damage.
This. The two scrolls both offer the wizard shield bonuses, and those don't stack. You'll wanna use that second shield as a weapon instead.Shield bonus do not stack unles hte ability specifically allow it.Why can't you? One either hand. Activating the ability is a free action, so it's not like it requires action economy. Two of them together would be 2 + 2 = 4, Silk armor brings it to +5
RAW it says a Scrollmaster can't use two scrollsword and that he can use a scrollsword in one hand and a scrollshield in the other it technically does not say anything about two scroll shields.
Even if RAI meant for dual-wielding scrollshields to be impossible, logically speaking I see no reason why it should be any less possible than holding two weapons.
In that case the second scroll would be used as a weapon, or just consumed for touch spells. Scrollsword is a good back-up but a wizard like this would might have a hard time hitting with it given that the PC's main damage sponge will have heavy armor and the Wizard's attack bonus would only be +7.
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In that case the second scroll would be used as a weapon, or just consumed for touch spells. Scrollsword is a good back-up but a wizard like this would might have a hard time hitting with it given that the PC's main damage sponge will have heavy armor and the Wizard's attack bonus would only be +7.This. The two scrolls both offer the wizard shield bonuses, and those don't stack. You'll wanna use that second shield as a weapon instead.Shield bonus do not stack unles hte ability specifically allow it.Why can't you? One either hand. Activating the ability is a free action, so it's not like it requires action economy. Two of them together would be 2 + 2 = 4, Silk armor brings it to +5
RAW it says a Scrollmaster can't use two scrollsword and that he can use a scrollsword in one hand and a scrollshield in the other it technically does not say anything about two scroll shields.
Even if RAI meant for dual-wielding scrollshields to be impossible, logically speaking I see no reason why it should be any less possible than holding two weapons.
Yeah I would suggest having a real weapon for your Wizard-tank, probably a martial weapon gained through racial weapon familiarity or something like that, as opposed to using the "scrollsword" ability. The scrollshield is really nice though.
I think he's going to mainly be focused on melee spells like Shocking Grasp and Elemental Aura (the latter being one of my favorite spells).
If he came up against a creature with high SR or a golem, he would switch to using his scrollsword.
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I am not really sure if anyone mentioned it, but here it is. You need at least one Samsarans character. They have an alternate racial ability that allows you to pick up spells from other spell lists. You would have to choose arcane spells, but thanks to the bard you can get healing. If Sorcerers were allowed, they I would say Slyvan blooded for their animal companion. In fact I would considering doing an entire party of Samsaran Slyvan blooded. If it has to be wizard only though, then check out Eldritch Heritage and boon companion. If you can survive to third level, then you have an animal companion to act as a tank.
This challenge is very doable.
You can't use Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage, for two reasons: first, you don't get the arcana, and the Sylvan's first power replaces both power #1 AND the arcana. Second, you can't do Wildblooded with Eldritch Heritage, because it's an archetype of the Sorcerer class, and you don't have that class.
And as I said in an earlier comment, Samsaren are out as a race and it really needs to be all Wizards.
for tank could he take hellknight signifire (allows arcane casters to wear armor/full spell casting) or does it have to be straight wizard?
Doesn't have to be a straight wizard necessarily, but because that prestige class is a mixed martial/magical character, it doesn't go along with the concept of a wizard that thinks straight up magic is the best solution for everything (he would rather rely on spells for defense than armor).
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How about minions? Is it okay if the wizards have lots of minions/hirelings/summons/bound creatures/familiars/cohorts/followers?
Somehow I just don't really see wizards going "wizard only" for very long; why stand on the front lines yourself? There are people/things you can hire for that.
I think wizards will prefer to avoid the standard type of fight; the one where your fighters try to get past their fighters while the casters rain down spells from behind. That's a sensible battle paradigm for a mixed party, but why would an all-wizard team want to fight like that?
* They could just all fly. Combine with Invisibility for the ones not casting attack spells. Fly high enough and you don't need nearly as much tanking.
* Well-built wizards do nasty things to visibility. Most summoned creatures have Darkvision, some have Tremorsense. Drop a Heightened Darkness (4-5) spell and watch the PCs' dismay at blind-fighting Augmented Giant Scorpions while the mages hide in the dark.
* Constructs could replace martial characters. Wizards can heal them with Make Whole spells. Also no risk of your frontliners getting Dominated.
* Focus fire confusion/domination spells on the PC martials suspected of poor saves. Turn them against their own party.
* Once you're invisible/hidden in darkness, summon monsters behind PC lines to eat their casters. Come at them from all sides, and focus fire (several summoned monsters spawning in the same turn, all attacking the same PC).
* Summon trampling monsters (auroch, bison) to run over annoying PCs with too-high AC.
* Hit&Run tactics; caster #1 uses Dimension Door to port in the caster party, #2-4 cast spells, #5 Doors them all out again, while the PCs are still deciding on buffs and all that.
Illusionist, Enchanter, Transmuter, & Necromancer seems like a great setup.
Possibly with a Conjurer in there as well.
It's been said before that in the highest end of optimization, the only thing that actually matters is the initiative roll and the surprise round.
As a result I'd recommend a Diviner as well, and make sure everyone gets the teamwork feat where if one of them is aware and can act in the surprise round, everyone can.
I might see the Samsaran, not ACTUALLY as a Samsaran, but as a wizard who tried grafting in extra souls to power his magic.
That's just nasty.Illusionist, Enchanter, Transmuter, & Necromancer seems like a great setup.
Possibly with a Conjurer in there as well.
It's been said before that in the highest end of optimization, the only thing that actually matters is the initiative roll and the surprise round.
As a result I'd recommend a Diviner as well, and make sure everyone gets the teamwork feat where if one of them is aware and can act in the surprise round, everyone can.
I try. Honestly, you could replace the Illusionist or Necromancer with it without losing too much on the abilities front.