Round 2 rules

[Inkwell]

Anthony Adam wrote:

Inkwell wrote:

See, I knew that the prize for round 1 was directly related for round 2. And here I was holding out for Nex/Mana Wastes/Geb! Oh well, there goes that idea, but its all good, something fresh to think about.

Then there are sad Paizonians like me who have far too much stuff and already have both PDFs >.<

Well, on the bright side you have the advantage there. I don't have the Guide to the River Kingdom so I can plan only so much. You, on the other hand, could submit it within minutes of being informed you made it to the top 32!

["Devil's Advocate"]

Google search the River Kingdoms PF Wiki.

:)

[R D Ramsey]

You can write your entry however you want, but when I vote, I'm voting for ones that are most closely integrated to the River Kingdoms.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Like I said, no worries. I think the criteria just wasn't as clear as it could be. Shoud be an interesting read though. Again, good luck everyone.

[Cheapy]

I plan on voting on the best designed archetypes. If they aren't DQ'd, they've already been given the stamp of approval that they're however loosely tied to the River Kingdoms.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Honestly, I'm already expecting to see about 30 pirate/bandit archtypes, most for Gunslingers, but a few Druid and Bard ones as well.

:)

J/K

. . . sort of

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Hmm, can't seem to find it in the River Kingdoms guide, so I figured I'd give it a shot and ask here: Anyone know the adjectival form of Tymon? Tymonese? Tymonian? Tymonin? Pharasmian?

[Coridan]

Tymon and Pumbaan I believe <g>

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Heh. For some reason I had Pumba in my head yesterday and couldn't figure out why I would have thought of him (haven't seen Lion King in ages). I guess now I know... Damn subconscious.

[Tripp Elliott]

Luckily, with some tweaks my concept can fit into the River Kingdoms fairly well.

Unfortunately it does it in ~600 words. I guess I need to cut some content!

Do I try and keep everything and be more concise, or do I change less in the archetype?

Hmmm, decisions, decisions!

[Magical_Beast]

For me, I always start with trying to be more concise. The more passes I take at my text, the more I find I can trim down until I have said everything I want to as elegantly as possible.

Once your language is trim then you'll know if you have to clip from the concept itself.

Many of us use too many words on the first pass. Voting this year has confirmed for me that this is rampant - including in my own writing.

[Sean K Reynolds]

"Trim until it hurts."

[Taylor Hubler]

Simplicity and brevity are next to godliness.

[Tripp Elliott]

I feel constrained by the way the CRB and other books state certain concepts.

If they say If A, then B, and then C, one feels the need to replace A, B, C, with X, Y, and Z when you are describing the same logic.

I have cut it down to 461 words! So I'm well on my way, hahaha.

Hmmm, ok need to go vote some more. I'm amazed at how many "new" items I am being asked to vote on still.

[Warren Crowhurst]

I'm put in mind of an old quote from a help-yourself-book on writing I read once.

'Whenever you feel an impulse to perpetrate a piece of exceptionally fine writing, obey it — whole-heartedly — and delete it before sending your manuscript to press. Murder your darlings.'

Edit: That was Arthur Quiller-Couch, as it turns out.

[HerosBackpack]

In the same vein, I always think of this old advice:

Journalistic Advice
If you've got a thought that's happy,
Boil it down.
Make it short and crisp and snappy,
Boil it down.

When your brain its coin has minted,
Down the page your pen has sprinted,
If you want your effort printed,
Boil it down.

Take out every surplus letter,
Boil it down.
Fewer syllables the better,
Boil it down.

Make your meaning plain.
Express it so we'll know not merely guess it;
then my friend ere you address it,
Boil it down.

Cut out all the extra trimmings,
Boil it down.
Skim it well, then skim the skimmings,
Boil it down.

When you're sure 'twould be a sin to
Cut another sentence into,
send it on, and we'll begin to,
BOIL IT DOWN!

[Sean K Reynolds]

To sum up: boil it down. :)

[Drejk]

But don't over-boil or it will get too salty!

[Dan Jones]

How bad would a super-simple archetype be? Is it possible to have too much brevity?

[Scott Fernandez]

Most of the simplest archetypes swap only two abilities. They can be quite brief, though probably not superstar quality.

--Vrock the Vote!

[Dan Jones]

Good to know. My plan B is actually pretty good too, I think. I just gotta change up the flavor so it works for the River Kingdoms.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Dan Jones wrote:

plan B is actually pretty good

That's what she said!

You could go for a smaller word count archetype to fit more background. I wonder how much flavor the Thornkeep book has that could be applicable for the round?

[Cat-thulhu]

I personally find the River Kingdoms a real challenge. I have an idea but the execution could be very ugly. Would it be acceptable to do a Ustalav archetype - one that could easilly cross the borders into Lambreth, Dagermark, Tymon under a cloud of suspicion and fear to forge a new life in the "free" lands

[Orcus Of Undeath]

Well my first archetype can go right into the trash can.

[Anthony Adam]

Orcus Of Undeath wrote:

Well my first archetype can go right into the trash can.

It will find company, mine's there too - retrofitting my practice designs would be obvious retrofits, so take heart, it will be better in the long run to start afresh.

[michaelane]

Thornkeep definitely has material you could tap into. They have a full gazeteer on the town and also lots of details on the Echo Woods and a couple other nearby strongholds/settlements. I think you could even find some inspiration in the dungeons.

On the topic of Numeria archetypes, you're probably not going to be DQed since its pretty clear that could exist in the River Kingdoms, but you are taking a risk with the voters. You've got plenty of time. I'd take another look at the River Kingdoms. There is a ton of material there for possible archetypes, including ones that go way beyond the common stereotypes. A concept that gets my GM or player juices flowing with solid mechanics is going to be the most important factor in getting my vote, but I will definitely put those with strong ties to the River Kingdoms over those with strong ties to neighbors or generic archetypes that "could" exist in the River Kingdoms. Think of this as a freelance design request. Is your developer for the River Kingdoms Player Companion going to be happy if you give him or her an archetype that really belongs in the Numeria Player Companion or in a book in the PF RPG line?

[Orcus Of Undeath]

Anthony Adam wrote:

Orcus Of Undeath wrote:

Well my first archetype can go right into the trash can.

It will find company, mine's there too - retrofitting my practice designs would be obvious retrofits, so take heart, it will be better in the long run to start afresh.

Yeah, its probably for the best. Good luck with your archetype.

Also, the community here at Paizo forums has been very friendly so far. I am not accustomed to that kind of thing.

[Magical_Beast]

On the plus side, there is a LOT of variety built into the idea of the River Kingdoms. Very happy I already own the Guide to the RK from my Kingmaker campaign.

[Anthony Adam]

Another place you can find a nice summary overview is the Gazetteer, pgs 50-51. Some of you may have this available already.

[michaelane]

One more that I've forgotten to mention is Perils of the Pirate Pact from Season 0 of Pathfinder Society. It is set in the Protectorate of the Black Marquis and the Echo Wood and IIRC, the VC who sends you on the mission is in Daggermark.

[Cthulhudrew]

I think it will be quite easy to come up with some ideas for River Kingdom archetypes; the region is incredibly rich with detail and flush with an abundance of material.

The trick, I think, will be to do something that isn't obvious given the setting. A lot of the ideas that come immediately to mind when going over the Guide are things that I think will also come to mind for most competitors, too.

[Joseph Kellogg]

Yeah, I'm expecting a lot of Oakstewards (Sevenarches), gladiators (Tymon), and underwater-combat-focused everything (Outsea).

[Coridan]

I just hope the entire year's twists will not be PFO related. I will not get into my feelings about PFO here, but suffice to say I have been avoiding things dealing with it since the announcement and do not really want it being a major factor in the contest.

[Dan Jones]

I usually play in homebrews, so all the Golarian flavored stuff is always a bit of a challenge.

For example, is the black and white apparel of Uringen Amish-like, Tuxedo-like, Ska-like checkerboard patterns, Zebra-striped or old timey prison-striped?

[cwslyclgh]

Dan Jones wrote:

I usually play in homebrews, so all the Golarian flavored stuff is always a bit of a challenge.

Heck the pathfinder game that I currently GM is set in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy, and the one I play in is set in Greyhawk... I know very little about Golarian... but I anot going to let that stop me ;)

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, I'm going to try to find a small, out of the way place to exploit.

And it seems like the River Kingdoms are full of small, out of the way places to exploit!!!

[Joseph Kellogg]

Dan Jones wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to try to find a small, out of the way place to exploit.

And it seems like the River Kingdoms are full of small, out of the way places to exploit!!!

Too bad racial archetypes aren't allowed, or you could make one for the Nystran silkgoyles. No one would expect that!

[Cat-thulhu]

CAn you include discoveries, deeds etc that support your archetype. So if it's original gunsliger and you have deeds that woudl support the concept can they form part of the submission?

[Starglim]

Cat-thulhu wrote:

CAn you include discoveries, deeds etc that support your archetype. So if it's original gunsliger and you have deeds that woudl support the concept can they form part of the submission?

Published gunslinger archetypes include additional deeds. edit: However, rules from previous years made clear that a submission that only consists of additional options for a class ability (such as extra rogue talents) would not be considered much of an archetype and could even be disqualified.

[Eric Morton]

Starglim wrote:

Published gunslinger archetypes include additional deeds. edit: However, rules from previous years made clear that a submission that only consists of additional options for a class ability (such as extra rogue talents) would not be considered much of an archetype and could even be disqualified.

Deeds are not selectable, so adding new deeds is not adding additional options for a class ability.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Ooh, just got what I think could be a very cool idea, though not sure I'll be able to pull it off in the word allotment.

My River Kingdom for more words!

[Magical_Beast]

I am curious if most of these entries will be 'generic' River Kingdoms, like Sean's example: 'Rustic Witch' or specific RK, like 'Daggermark Poisoner'.

[Joseph Kellogg]

Keep in mind that even the Daggermark Poisoner is not mechanically tied to any specific location*. The tie to Daggermark is purely in the fluff paragraph (and the requirement that you donate poison to the Daggermark Poisoners' Guild). It could easily be re-fluffed to be a poisoner from anywhere, and I think that's important for scoring points with the general public. There are a lot of people who play mostly in homebrew worlds, and would be turned off by an archetype that's mechanically dependent on a certain location.

*As opposed to, for instance, the "Touvette Defender" feat in the Guide to the River Kingdoms, which only works in a specific city.

[Cthulhudrew]

Magical_Beast wrote:

I am curious if most of these entries will be 'generic' River Kingdoms, like Sean's example: 'Rustic Witch' or specific RK, like 'Daggermark Poisoner'.

Great, now you made me reconsider my "River Kingdoms Fighter" archetype... :p

[Kenton Abel]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

*As opposed to, for instance, the "Touvette Defender" feat in the Guide to the River Kingdoms, which only works in a specific city.

Not having said Guide, I take solace that I will most likely be reading and commenting on the archetypes without the need to actually submit my own....

[Fredrik]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

Hmm, can't seem to find it in the River Kingdoms guide, so I figured I'd give it a shot and ask here: Anyone know the adjectival form of Tymon? Tymonese? Tymonian? Tymonin? Pharasmian?

As a random bystander, my advice would be to go with "Tymon" for your adjective. If ever there were a nation with a narcissistic streak, that's it.

[Coridan]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

Ooh, just got what I think could be a very cool idea, though not sure I'll be able to pull it off in the word allotment.

My River Kingdom for more words!

I found a tricksy way to add 700 words with only about 30 =)

[Anthony Adam]

Coridan wrote:

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

Ooh, just got what I think could be a very cool idea, though not sure I'll be able to pull it off in the word allotment.

My River Kingdom for more words!

I found a tricksy way to add 700 words with only about 30 =)

Let me guess... you added something like this half way through :P

The daggerford dagger turns to you with menace and foreboding as he sneers,

"The remaining words on this entry are a figment of your imagination."

With trepidation, you silently agree.

Ha! 30 words!

[Starglim]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

Ooh, just got what I think could be a very cool idea, though not sure I'll be able to pull it off in the word allotment.

My River Kingdom for more words!

I'm a bit concerned about this as well. I have a chunk of text that I could possibly mostly skip, but at the risk of annoying the judges and voters.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Coridan wrote:

I found a tricksy way to add 700 words with only about 30 =)

Something like "This is the same as the [redacted class feature] of the [redacted class].", but with different wording?