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If possible I would like this confirmed by Josh (or somebody with his proxy). I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that that the rules in this case are somewhat ambiguous. The specific language is:
For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. In essence, you’re paying the difference. This applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to the same item—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword.
The rule uses the word "item", not "armor or weapon". Since standard non-armor/weapon items, such as backpacks and amulets can be masterwork (we know this because the wizard's arcane focus can be masterwork), it would be possible to argue that the rule would apply to miscellaneous magic items as well, in particular amulets and belts of stat increases.
Fortunately this question hasn't come up in our local group yet.
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I have a +2 belt of Giant Strength, can it be upgraded to a +2 belt of Physical Might (Str & Dex)?
I've wondered the same thing. Since you're not changing the item to something else (it's still a belt) wouldn't it fall under the normal enhancement rules? You can enhance the same sword & armor upward. Unless I'm mis-remembering (always a possibility)you can enhance a rings of protection & amulets of natural armor upward. Chris, is there a posting ruling by Joshua or one of the other "big-wigs" to this effect?
Oh, and I see someone else has posted much the same message while I was typing. Carry on.
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If possible I would like this confirmed by Josh (or somebody with his proxy). I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that that the rules in this case are somewhat ambiguous. The specific language is:
For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. In essence, you’re paying the difference. This applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to the same item—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword.The rule uses the word "item", not "armor or weapon". Since standard non-armor/weapon items, such as backpacks and amulets can be masterwork (we know this because the wizard's arcane focus can be masterwork), it would be possible to argue that the rule would apply to miscellaneous magic items as well, in particular amulets and belts of stat increases.
Fortunately this question hasn't come up in our local group yet.
The belt can be "upgraded" to a +4 or +6 but that's all. The belt of physical might is a separate item altogether, unfortunately, so a belt of dexterity cannot be upgraded to a belt of physical might. And the entire section of rules in the book for creating items with different types of abilities (eg, ring of protection AND invisibility) are not available in PFS.
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The belt can be "upgraded" to a +4 or +6 but that's all. The belt of physical might is a separate item altogether, unfortunately, so a belt of dexterity cannot be upgraded to a belt of physical might. And the entire section of rules in the book for creating items with different types of abilities (eg, ring of protection AND invisibility) are not available in PFS.
I was wondering something on a similar vein...can you buy a composite long bow (+0) for 100 gp, then upgrade it incrementally as you get more gold?
It's a little murky on the belt though cause you can add 'new' functionality to weapons and armor besides enchantment bonuses, but that may be a slightly different kettle of fish.
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The belt can be "upgraded" to a +4 or +6 but that's all. The belt of physical might is a separate item altogether, unfortunately, so a belt of dexterity cannot be upgraded to a belt of physical might. And the entire section of rules in the book for creating items with different types of abilities (eg, ring of protection AND invisibility) are not available in PFS.
Okay this I'd buy (and missed that it was a single stat belt going to a combo belt in the original post), but I'd still like confirmation by one of the big-wigs.
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It's a little murky on the belt though cause you can add 'new' functionality to weapons and armor besides enchantment bonuses, but that may be a slightly different kettle of fish.
True, but the weapons and armor specifically state that you may add those special abilities to them and have subcategories and tables associated with them. These wondrous items do not have those.
These may not be great examples, but I'm shooting from the hip here. Ioun stones allow for enhancement bonuses to abilities but you cannot upgrade a deep red sphere of +2 Dex to also have a +2 Con, as it is a separate item altogether. You cannot upgrade a ring of minor spell storing to a ring of major spell storing as they are 2 separate items and have separate entries. Nor could you upgrade a ring of jumping to a ring of improved jumping for the same reason. You could, however, upgrade a rod of lesser extend to a rod of greater extend and a ring of wizardry I to a ring of wizardry II or a ring of minor energy resistance to a ring of major energy resistance because these upgrades fall under the same item heading.
Other, less compelling evidence (but still worth considering) is in the flavor text of the items. The belt of dexterity has a silver buckle and physical might has a steel buckle. I realize this is weak and maybe just semantics and for flavor, but I'm mentioning it here because undoubtedly someone will point out that ioun stones are different kinds of stones and therefore cannot be upgraded with different enhancements. And my point is that the stone types appear to be more for flavor text in differentiating between them (much like the belts and headbands) rather than for mechanic-based reasons for their composition the way adamantine vs cold iron weapons are. Someone can easily and reasonably argue that the change in buckle is part of the upagrade cost, so I'm not hanging my hat on this argument. I'm just using it to point out that flavor text is often added to help differentiate between similar items with different properties.
The last point regarding the item text is where it says under the belt of physical might description that the "bonuses are chosen when the belt is created and cannot be changed." I realize that this is primarily meant to keep people from shifting the bonues around whenever they feel like it, but it also affirms that if you want different bonuses to other abilities you cannot do it with this belt; you'd need a different belt. You can upgrade these bonuses with higher enhancements, but you cannot change the attributes to which they pertain. It also says you choose the bonuses when it is 'created', not created or altered from a different type of belt.
It seems pretty clear to me that we're talkling about completely separate items. Otherwise there would only need to be one entry for the belt of physical perfection with costs for implementing and upgrading enhancements when adding in other ability score bumps.
Just my two cents here. Not looking to make trouble. :-)
I was wondering something on a similar vein...can you buy a composite long bow (+0) for 100 gp, then upgrade it incrementally as you get more gold?
You can for 400GP. The weapon still needs to start off as a masterwork weapon. Which adds 300GP to the original cost.
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You can for 400GP. The weapon still needs to start off as a masterwork weapon. Which adds 300GP to the original cost.
I was wondering something on a similar vein...can you buy a composite long bow (+0) for 100 gp, then upgrade it incrementally as you get more gold?
Sorry, let me try to rephrase my question. Hadn't really considered masterwork originally.
If you buy a composite longbow (100 gp) it's set to add +0 STR bonus. For each +1 STR bonus you want to add, you have to spend 100 gp.
My question is, can I buy it for 100 gp, then spend 100 gp (twice) or 200 gp (once) after the initial purchase to get it up to a +2 STR bonus (for a 15 STR character).
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It's a little murky on the belt though cause you can add 'new' functionality to weapons and armor besides enchantment bonuses, but that may be a slightly different kettle of fish.True, but the weapons and armor specifically state that you may add those special abilities to them and have subcategories and tables associated with them. These wondrous items do not have those.
Like I said, may be a slightly different kettle of fish.
I think you are on the right track with the item headings. Since there is a cost to go from a +2 belt to a +4 belt yes you can pay the difference. Since there is no cost listed to go from a +2 DEX belt to a +2 DEX/+2 STR belt you cannot pay the difference.
You can for 400GP. The weapon still needs to start off as a masterwork weapon. Which adds 300GP to the original cost.
I was wondering something on a similar vein...can you buy a composite long bow (+0) for 100 gp, then upgrade it incrementally as you get more gold?
Actually that's not the case. You can have a non-masterwork composite bow with a +0 strength rating, and make it a +1 strength rating for 100 gp. Strength rating is independent of the masterwork quality.
That's kind of throwing 50% of your investment away though, since you can't make a non-masterwork weapon masterwork. Additionally, always keep in mind you can only upgrade items if your TPA allows you to purchase the final/full price of the upgraded item, even if you're only paying the difference.
On Topic, this:
The belt of physical might is a separate item altogether
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That's kind of throwing 50% of your investment away though, since you can't make a non-masterwork weapon masterwork. Additionally, always keep in mind you can only upgrade items if your TPA allows you to purchase the final/full price of the upgraded item, even if you're only paying the difference.
Masterwork composite bow wouldn't count for TPA would it? It would fall under the always available mundane heading.
But the final cost of said bow should be 100+300+200=600. 100 for the bow, 300 for masterwork and 200 for the total of +2 STR. Then it would be my BAB+DEX+MW to hit and d8+STR for damage?
Masterwork composite bow wouldn't count for TPA would it? It would fall under the always available mundane heading.
Correct.
But the final cost of said bow should be 100+300+200=600. 100 for the bow, 300 for masterwork and 200 for the total of +2 STR. Then it would be my BAB+DEX+MW to hit and d8+STR for damage?
600 gp, yes. But to be clear (for everyon), you couldn't go from 100 + 200(+2 str) and then later pay 300 to make it masterwork.
1d8 + STR mod up to 2. Also keep in mind, if you take STR damage, and no longer have at least a +2 modifier to strength, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls with the weapon.
One more thing with those bows. Say you have a composite bow, with a +1 STR rating, and have a 12 STR. You meet a happy little creature that sucks away 3 STR, and you now have a 9 strength. Instead of doing 1d8+1 damage, you now are not only at -2 to attack, but now only deal 1d8-1 damage. *d'oh!*
If you buy a composite longbow (100 gp) it's set to add +0 STR bonus. For each +1 STR bonus you want to add, you have to spend 100 gp.
My question is, can I buy it for 100 gp, then spend 100 gp (twice) or 200 gp (once) after the initial purchase to get it up to a +2 STR bonus (for a 15 STR character).
I believe the short answer is No, you can not upgrade a +1 STR bow to a +2 STR bow. Magic can be added to masterwork bows but the strength bonus has to do with how the bow is built. A higher strength bonus means the bow is thicker, stronger, and more powerful. You can't increase the physical thickness of the wood on the bow after it is made.
You could, however, upgrade a rod of lesser extend to a rod of greater extend and a ring of wizardry I to a ring of wizardry II or a ring of minor energy resistance to a ring of major energy resistance because these upgrades fall under the same item heading.
I don't think you can upgrade a ring of Wizardry I (doubles 1st level spells) to a ring of Wizardry II (doubles 2nd level spells) as you are not keeping the powers of the original item, you're losing the ability to double 1st level spells. In earlier versions of D&D there is a ring of Wizardry that double both 1st and 2nd level spells, but I can't find one in Pathfinder.
In general, I'd let you upgrade any item that is 1) physically the same item (belt), 2) that retains the original magic properties (+2 Dex) and 3) adds something more that is 4) still an item in the core book (like adding +2 Str for a belt of Physical Might). I'm not saying taking a ring of protection +2 and adding +2 Dex to it. That's not an item in the core books.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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The belt can be "upgraded" to a +4 or +6 but that's all. The belt of physical might is a separate item altogether, unfortunately, so a belt of dexterity cannot be upgraded to a belt of physical might. And the entire section of rules in the book for creating items with different types of abilities (eg, ring of protection AND invisibility) are not available in PFS.
Wow, I really gotta disagree with this. When you add a +2 Dex to a +2 Str, your just weaving in more magic to the same belt. Its a belt, buff as necessary. I look at this the same way I see making a greatsword +1 to +2 or +1 to +1 frost. Your just boosting the same item. The new belt still gives the original +2 Str, and but also gives +2 Dex. And this new magic item exists as legal. Adding invisibility to a protection ring wouldn't work because they are two distinctly different rings providing two distinctly different functions. There are no rings of invisible protection, thus they can't be combined.
Also, if you continue along this same line of arguement, then couldn't you add flaming and flaming burst to the same weapon, making it extra crispy? I always felt one was an upgrade of the other.
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 03:19 PM
A question about bows.
If you have a +1 Composite longbow with a strenght bonus of +1, can you upgrade the strength bonus by paying the difference (100 gp per increase)?
Josh, can we get an official answer on this? Seems like not being able to simply upgrade the strength bonus would be a huge penalty for ranged characters who manage to increase their character's strength.
ex. Having a +2 Flaming Composite Longbow Mighty +2, and wanting a +2 Flaming Composite Longbow Mighty +3 would cost the character 8,350 gp!
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 04:39 PMUpgrade by paying the difference.
Just to be sure, you are referring to both the Magical (+1 weapon to +2 weapon for 6000 gp) and the non-Magical (Masterwork Composite Longbow of +1 STR to +2 STR for 100 gp) are both available by paying the respective differences, 6000 gp and 100 gp?
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 07:11 PMIn the specific case of bows, yes.
Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 01:18 PM
Page 78 of the PRPG Core Rulebook covers Arcane Bonded items.
As far as PFS and composite longbows are concerned, you can only start with a MW composite longbow (+0 Str) bonus at first level. If you later want to spend the 100 gp per Str bonus to increase that, you can, but you don't get a MW composite longbow with a Str bonus above +0 as your free weapon for the bonded item.
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Swiftbrook and I both harken back to the days of LG, and that's how we related to organized play rules. To me a bow must be built from scratch for a purpose, it's not like adding rubber bands to a SoloFlex. From his posts last year Josh thinks about the issue in a different way, more friendly towards the players. I stand corrected (once again).
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Swiftbrook and I both harken back to the days of LG, and that's how we related to organized play rules. To me a bow must be built from scratch for a purpose, it's not like adding rubber bands to a SoloFlex. From his posts last year Josh thinks about the issue in a different way, more friendly towards the players. I stand corrected (once again).
Everyone draws their realism threshold in different places :)
[/end threadjack]
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From the discussion it still seems to me that upgrading the belt could be ruled on either way. Is there any chance of getting a ruling on this?
I suggest putting the matter on hold until Josh returns. And maybe for a little while after that as he integrates back into work and sifts through his e-mail backlog.
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Oh faceless gawds of the messageboards, I have sinned against thee. I flagged this thread in the belief that it pertained to a Rules Question, and not direct to Society matters. If in your judgment this belief was valid, based upon a review of the content, then let this forum move stand. But if you trusted in your servant Doug Doug and moved this thread to the Rules Questions forum based on his reputation alone, then strike him down before all the boards and please move this thread back to the Society forums. His peers have called him out, and his judgment has fallen short. [sorry for the forum whiplash!]
Personally,
I'd allow it in my games. A belt is a belt. The rules have the cost for adding an unrelated ability to an existing magic item. Turns out, funnily enough, that it's the exact same cost to add an unrelated +2 bonus to DEX to a Belt of Physical Might as it would be to buy a belt of Physical Perfection (Str/Dex). Funny how that worked out huh? :)
As for society play, don't do it, won't comment on it, don't have the credentials.
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Oh faceless gawds of the messageboards, I have sinned against thee. I flagged this thread in the belief that it pertained to a Rules Question, and not direct to Society matters. If in your judgment this belief was valid, based upon a review of the content, then let this forum move stand. But if you trusted in your servant Doug Doug and moved this thread to the Rules Questions forum based on his reputation alone, then strike him down before all the boards and please move this thread back to the Society forums. His peers have called him out, and his judgment has fallen short. [sorry for the forum whiplash!]
giggles
Personally,
I'd allow it in my games. A belt is a belt. The rules have the cost for adding an unrelated ability to an existing magic item. Turns out, funnily enough, that it's the exact same cost to add an unrelated +2 bonus to DEX to a Belt of Physical Might as it would be to buy a belt of Physical Perfection (Str/Dex). Funny how that worked out huh? :)As for society play, don't do it, won't comment on it, don't have the credentials.
Agreed.
Even by a Strict RAW interpretation, you can do it, but if you are not allowing custom items, then you have to always match up to one of the specific belts in the PH. This mean you cannot take a belt of strength +4 and add +2 dex to it, you have to go +4 dex or nothing since a +4 str/+2 dex belt would constitute a custom item.
PFS, I can't comment.
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I don't make rulings for Pathfinder Society OP, but IMO there's no reason you couldn't upgrade a belt of Str +2 to a belt of Str +2 and Dex +2, in the same sense that you can upgrade a +1 longsword to a +1 frost longsword.
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The description of the respective belts is different, with silver tiger buckle for Dex, gold bear for Con, multiple huge 'metal' buckles for Str, steel buckle for any 2 and platinum buckle for any 3.
This flavor text suggests that each item is a different construction entirely, and that upgrading a Dex belt (with it's silver tiger buckle) to a Dex + Con belt with a steel buckle would require the fashioning of a different material belt, or at least using a technique similar to the Aspis Consortium's technique for disassembling magic items for smuggling, to put it back together with the new / added buckle(s).
I'd be inclined to allow such a thing (or to allow a PC to fashion a Dex belt that had a copper praying mantis buckle, instead of a silver tiger buckle, for that matter), but a strict interpretation of the flavor text suggests that it wouldn't work.
Whether or not flavor should be used to restrict something not specifically against any rules, is another argument entirely, to be continued on your favorite paladin thread.
The description of the respective belts is different, with silver tiger buckle for Dex, gold bear for Con, multiple huge 'metal' buckles for Str, steel buckle for any 2 and platinum buckle for any 3.
I would simple handwave it away by saying that part of the thousands of gold spent and days focused on enchanting either replaced or transformed the buckle to the appropriate material and/or image. It is a magical process, and a necessarily vague process at that.
You absolutely can upgrade items.
You can make a +1 weapon into a +5 weapon.
You can make a flaming weapon into a flaming burst weapon.
You can make a belt of giant strength into a belt of physical perfection.
You can take a staff and add a new spell to its repertoire.
In each case, you simply pay the difference in gold. You still must have the appropriate magic item creation feats and must make the appropriate magic item crafting checks, however.
You absolutely can upgrade items.
You can make a +1 weapon into a +5 weapon.
You can make a flaming weapon into a flaming burst weapon.
You can make a belt of giant strength into a belt of physical perfection.
You can take a staff and add a new spell to its repertoire.In each case, you simply pay the difference in gold. You still must have the appropriate magic item creation feats and must make the appropriate magic item crafting checks, however.
I completely agree. If you note the price for the belt of might +2 cost, is the IDENTICAL as if you two combined +2 physical stat items.
+2 strength 4,000 gold
+2 dexterity added on 6,000 gold (+50% mark up for combined item)
total: 10,000
You guys yelling Nah are nuts.
I have a +2 belt of Giant Strength, can it be upgraded to a +2 belt of Physical Might (Str & Dex)?
To the OP:
Yes, just follow the cost rules for adding magic to existing items.
==Aelryinth
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Oh faceless gawds of the messageboards, I have sinned against thee. I flagged this thread in the belief that it pertained to a Rules Question, and not direct to Society matters. If in your judgment this belief was valid, based upon a review of the content, then let this forum move stand. But if you trusted in your servant Doug Doug and moved this thread to the Rules Questions forum based on his reputation alone, then strike him down before all the boards and please move this thread back to the Society forums. His peers have called him out, and his judgment has fallen short. [sorry for the forum whiplash!]
NOOOO!!! Look at what you have done!!!, Because of you Doug Doug, now the OP question has gotten befuddled and mixed up with a regular rule question!!!.. Now we will never get our answer!!!
You ****yelling Nah are nuts.The typo only makes it funny.
*Face Palm*. please remove this please... I have fixed it.
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*Face Palm*. please remove this please... I have fixed it.You ****yelling Nah are nuts.The typo only makes it funny.
Done. You still kinda insulted anyone who disagreed with you, and I don't recall anyone actually getting worked up enough to think of them as 'yelling,' but at least the typo is fixed.
You absolutely can upgrade items.
You can make a +1 weapon into a +5 weapon.
You can make a flaming weapon into a flaming burst weapon.
You can make a belt of giant strength into a belt of physical perfection.
You can take a staff and add a new spell to its repertoire.In each case, you simply pay the difference in gold. You still must have the appropriate magic item creation feats and must make the appropriate magic item crafting checks, however.
I completely agree. If you note the price for the belt of might +2 cost, is the IDENTICAL as if you two combined +2 physical stat items.
+2 strength 4,000 gold
+2 dexterity added on 6,000 gold (+50% mark up for combined item)
total: 10,000You guys yelling Nah are nuts.
^ this is correct
*Face Palm*. please remove this please... I have fixed it.You ****yelling Nah are nuts.The typo only makes it funny.
Done. You still kinda insulted anyone who disagreed with you, and I don't recall anyone actually getting worked up enough to think of them as 'yelling,' but at least the typo is fixed.
Yelling nah is more of a phrase, but if one looks at the rules and costs logically it makes no sense, in the rules, not to let one upgrade them. Now if one acknowledges the rules and chooses to rule another way that is another thing
This is a great summary of the policy. Could you please post a link
to the original 2009 post where all these rulings originate? Thanks!
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 03:19 PM
A question about bows.
If you have a +1 Composite longbow with a strenght bonus of +1, can you upgrade the strength bonus by paying the difference (100 gp per increase)?
Josh, can we get an official answer on this? Seems like not being able to simply upgrade the strength bonus would be a huge penalty for ranged characters who manage to increase their character's strength.
ex. Having a +2 Flaming Composite Longbow Mighty +2, and wanting a +2 Flaming Composite Longbow Mighty +3 would cost the character 8,350 gp!
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 04:39 PMUpgrade by paying the difference.
Just to be sure, you are referring to both the Magical (+1 weapon to +2 weapon for 6000 gp) and the non-Magical (Masterwork Composite Longbow of +1 STR to +2 STR for 100 gp) are both available by paying the respective differences, 6000 gp and 100 gp?
Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 07:11 PMIn the specific case of bows, yes.
You absolutely can upgrade items.
You can make a +1 weapon into a +5 weapon.
You can make a flaming weapon into a flaming burst weapon.
You can make a belt of giant strength into a belt of physical perfection.
You can take a staff and add a new spell to its repertoire.In each case, you simply pay the difference in gold. You still must have the appropriate magic item creation feats and must make the appropriate magic item crafting checks, however.
+1
This is a great summary of the policy. Could you please post a link to the original 2009 post where all these rulings originate? Thanks!
Link: FAQ 2.0
-Swiftbrook