Goblin Squad Member
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If you could mix elements from other games together and distill them into Pathfinder Online, which features would you pick?
I sat down and pondered this question after watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBkipKFocT0&feature=related (NSFW, a little language)
and this is what I came up with.
Character creation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WhOTrc5554
APB. APB had the best character creator I've ever seen. It let you adjust all of the usual body sliders we've come to expect but it also let you put tattoos and patterns on clothing. Being able to put your monk's tattoo's down his arms to his fists or giving your sorcerer and elaborate robe with magical sigils would be awesome. They also let you do this for all of your cars as well, but I don't really think our horses need to have bumper stickers on them :)
Combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpTjwpFh0a4
EVE Online had methodical paced combat that allowed for alot of strategy. What I would like to see Pathfinder Online do is quick round-based combat, have everything move on a slightly slower pace and let tactical decisions carry more weight by giving your fewer, and more important choices than which instant cast to spam next.
Visuals and Exploration : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgx0NBx4Pzo and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsizA9lqqbA
Guild Wars 2 has the most amazing, sharp and breathtaking visuals I've ever seen in a long time. It may be not be a sandbox, but Arenanet are passionate game developers that really push the envelope. Their visual style is a close cousin of Pathfinder, and every time I go exploring I find something new and exciting in their world. There is a vibrant and exciting energy that you see in the game when you play guild wars 2. I saw a bit of that in the PFO Technology demo and can't wait for more! The main thing I'd love to see taken from Arenanet's playbook is the emergent gameplay it allows, secret locations and adventures far off the beaten path that really make the game special.
Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq90bvH51oI Rik Shaffer or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq90bvH51oI Jeremy Soule or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78xB_GqLwPY Jason Hayes (Very unlikely)
These composers have produced the most amazing music for my favorite games. For me, music in games is the most important aspect. I find myself firing up old games just to listen to the beautiful soundtracks. All three of these composers have an outstanding talent in making music that carries mood. Having music that sets the mood correctly for a setting is the most important part of my immersion. Walking to Ashenvale on my nightelf was how I was turned on to the MMO genre, it felt like walking into another world. Also, as a special mention for combat music, the game Payday: The Heist had an awesome music system that adapted to the excitement of the moment and really put your head in the game.
Congrats for getting through my wall of text if you made it this far, here is your reward; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLYXv_VhB2g and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow4cC-Cz5l8 for you empire building types.
So now you've seen my shout-outs and whishes for what PFO could emulate. What games really nailed features that you would like to see made a reality in Pathfinder Online?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Character Creation: As said, I like the idea of a bauplan/blank slate and see the character develop and become the character of their/your actions.
Combat:
EVE Online had methodical paced combat that allowed for alot of strategy. What I would like to see Pathfinder Online do is quick round-based combat, have everything move on a slightly slower pace and let tactical decisions carry more weight by giving your fewer, and more important choices than which instant cast to spam next.
There's a lot in this description that I like; watching the EVE video 2 things strike me: Lots of information to make decisions with and time to make decisions and small adjustments. I know many don't like the eve combat and there is an expectation of real-time combat, but for tab-target I like the idea that you can make decisions based on information and what that tells you about how to defeat your enemy/how they are trying to defeat you (your group).
Visuals: GW2 visuals are very nice. I'd prefer darker and grimmer visuals for Pathfinder, more faded colors to emphasis a dangerous world. Grim and wary faces etc. I prefer less anime appeal also which GW2 has a little of. Also if it can be avoided proportions that don't fit with gravity and physics on some creatures. The scale of the world I'd like to be impressive: So great forests and high mountains. The trees in the tech demo look a little short and the hillocks not hilly enough.
That said, ambient noises are a higher priority initially for me for the world to be interesting (can always add personal music).
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Tbh, the features in the Goblin Works blog impress me the most! Eg contracts, armies, player created factions and player-run settlements and more. The big question mark is the combat system atm for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something I wanted to add to this list is a noncombat form of medium-length buffs that will give an adventurer an edge. Similar to entertainers in SWG Pre CU. I think it adds a great, if slightly forced reason to go visit a tavern with other adventurers to get a slight combat bonus.
Any system that requires adventurers to go to an inn, temple, fair (Pleasurehouse?) to recoup or prepare before an adventure is what I'd like to see.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think actually a mix of combat between (original) Fallout (specifically the action points pool) and Neverwinter Nights (where you only actually perform an action every 6 seconds and can queue up and change the actions occurring next) would be great. This would take out most of the twitch aspect and really focus more on tactics and strategy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In other words, a system like that would guarantee that those who play the most and have built the strongest characters will dominate and bully everyone else.
If you plan on sitting at the top with the best character possible, I can definitely understand why you'd prefer a system like that. For the casual player it would be a complete nightmare as you could never go out in the countryside alone because of the super-strong PK bandits with superior characters and gear.
Much like in EVE, where your only hope is that the veterans you meet are too busy to bother killing you.
To me it makes perfect sense that a well trained, geared and skilled player would win combat engagements. If I've trained from day 1, have the best gear and have skill then yes, I should win every 1v1 engagement. I am wagering the most skillpoint loss and gear loss.
Its always a slippery slope from trying to take power from those who have put in the time and resources to making everybody a same-ey blah power level that barley changes and shows very little character advancement.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think actually a mix of combat between (original) Fallout (specifically the action points pool) and Neverwinter Nights (where you only actually perform an action every 6 seconds and can queue up and change the actions occurring next) would be great. This would take out most of the twitch aspect and really focus more on tactics and strategy.It would also cement the status quo, just like in those games. Opponent does more dps than you? Well, try running then. Oh, he moves faster? Then there's no way of beating him.
In other words, a system like that would guarantee that those who play the most and have built the strongest characters will dominate and bully everyone else.
If you plan on sitting at the top with the best character possible, I can definitely understand why you'd prefer a system like that. For the casual player it would be a complete nightmare as you could never go out in the countryside alone because of the super-strong PK bandits with superior characters and gear.
Much like in EVE, where your only hope is that the veterans you meet are too busy to bother killing you.
They've been pretty clear that vets are going to be pretty powerful and it will be a wash in the middle ground.
I've always thought that the way the power curve will likely work is this:
Newbies
When you are a "new" character, you'll be fragile and weak. That does two things:
1: It encourages you to stay in reasonably safe areas and focus on learning how the game works, rather than trying to be Conan on day one.
2: It makes "disposable alts" a less viable option. Making a new character is not an "I win" button for PvP if you do it with a herd of your friends.
Average
At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
A small group of reasonably experienced "heroic adventurers" should be able to fight off a horde of new characters, A heroic adventurer should be able to beat a small number of new characters fairly easily.
Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
Old Vets
There will likely be a small number of old, experienced, wealthy, well equipped PCs who will be really dangerous. You won't want to cross them.
If they show up in a fight, they can tip the balance quickly. If they act in concert as a group, it will take a lot of Heroic Adventurers to keep them in check.
Moderating the power of these Old Vets is an obvious long-term challenge for the game designers and I'm sure we'll have lots of ideas on how to keep them from getting out of hand. But I'm also sure that it will be pretty fun to play one too. :)
I don't think a mix between an action or stamina pool and then action queing that can be retroactively changed for the situation necessarily locks it into a who is the best geared is always the winner. More so it would be who can best utilize their skills in the allotted amount resource pool of actions.
Also it already sounds like they are going this route.
We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.
Players who plan out their attacks to maximize their abilities in terms of Stamina will be better off than those who rely on straight speed to spam abilities as quickly as possible. The "planning player" will end each six second interval with no excess Stamina, while the "spamming player" will end up with unused points in their pool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In other words, a system like that would guarantee that those who play the most and have built the strongest characters will dominate and bully everyone else.
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I don't believe that is true: I am not the instrument of my power, my power is my instrument. I own my abilities: my abilities don't own me.
It is a victim's perspective to fear that those who are powerful can be 'guaranteed' to "dominate and bully everyone else". The powerful player has control and responsibility whether to choose to bully.
Of course, if all you can think to do as a low level is run around and stabbity-stab-stab characters vastly more powerful than you then you will likely be slapped down pretty often, and you might think them bullies I suppose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally the main reason I am waiting so eagerly on PFO has nothing to do with the fantasy setting. I am equally at home in a fantasy or Sci-Fi setting. It's how slow and hands off everything in EVE was.
EVE with a fantasy skin won't be as successful as EVE any more than WoW with a Star Wars skin was as successful as EVE.
I'm fine with with borrowing some of EVE's better features. We already have EVE's skill training, Open World PVP and Player Owned Structures, crafting style, contracts, and single server divided into shards.
At combat to the mix and not only will you most likely kill this game for me, but also people will very rightfully consider it an EVE clone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally the main reason I am waiting so eagerly on PFO has nothing to do with the fantasy setting. I am equally at home in a fantasy or Sci-Fi setting. It's how slow and hands off everything in EVE was.
EVE with a fantasy skin won't be as successful as EVE any more than WoW with a Star Wars skin was as successful as EVE.
I'm fine with with borrowing some of EVE's better features. We already have EVE's skill training, Open World PVP and Player Owned Structures, crafting style, contracts, and single server divided into shards.
At combat to the mix and not only will you most likely kill this game for me, but also people will very rightfully consider it an EVE clone.
If this game is at its very least EVE with a fantasy skin, I would be perfectly happy with that. for me, fantasy settings are much easier to relate to and immerse myself in. The ammount of fantasy vs other MMO settings I think is also a clear indicator of how popular the genre of MMO is.
I agree with the slowness but I think this game should and will be fairly hands off for large parts of the game, particularly the parts of the game they are hopeing to heighten player interaction. Making people part of the monster pool for example (Can't wait for that) will let the devs have the player be the monster, which is still meaningful player interaction.
Sandboxes aren't the same with the "adult" looking over your shoulder telling you how to build your castle. Not that you were advocating that, we agree on most points you brought up.
As far as the combat goes, I'm glad somebody was able to pull up that quote about stamina, I had forgotten that. Having slower paced tactical combat is really what I was getting at, and from what was quoted it seems that is in.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm with Andius on this one. I played EVE for a few months and then quite. Mainly because of the combat system, so I never got to experience in-depth a lot of the other systems.
I think the combat needs to be more dynamic then EVE but not some much it is an FPS. (Not that I would specifically mind it being an FPS, but I think for the game as a whole and the resulting community it wouldn't be a good thing)
From what I've read (aside from potentially formation combat) it sounds like a system I would like that closely resembles a mix of Fallout and Neverwinter Nights but a lot more fast paced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eve's combat is as boring as doing taxes. I for one prefer a more active combat, where I have to click a button to make something happen, but the one in Neverwinter Nights was pretty good too. Just, no more staring at bars of cooldown abilities, please! My eyes should be on the battle, not the hot bar.
Unfortunately, turn based battle systems just wont work in an MMO, with thousands of people running around doing different things you pretty much have no choice but to do real-time combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dakcenturi, Semi-turn-based is right, I guess. Basically the battle progresses in real time, however the internal mechanics of the battle behave and are calculated as if it were turn based. I guess it's similar to Square's coined Active Time Battle system, except your characters have a default action if you don't provide any input. I'm not sure it'll work so well though with people potentially running all over the battlefield, joining combat and running away. There is also potential in PFO for snipers and other things I can't even think of.
Now I will ramble a bit.
I for one liked DDO's combat system, except again there is too much cooldown hotbar usage. It was also a bit floaty and muffled. I'd like it to fell more tactile and physical, which is a matter of animation and audio/visual feed back.
Dragon's Dogma, which I've touted before for it's armor system, has possibly the best feeling combat I've played in a while, at least for the melee classes. The magic classes and abilities are rather clunky and awkward to execute, especially with aiming at targets, though the pay off when the spell is cast and hits is very satisfying.
Back to NWN though, it's radial menu system might be worth looking at instead of hotbars, it can make things more interesting and interactive. You'll want to avoid nested radial menus though because they're annoying.
My idea is that you have nine radial menus, connected to the numbers on your keyboard. Each menu has maybe 8 slots, when you gain a new spell or ability you can plug it into one of those slots. You can also set an icon to represent that menu which will appear on a hotbar, that hotbar is mostly just there to help remind you which menu is which button. When you want to use an ability or spell from the menu, you hold down the button for that menu, then right click and hold on the target, the menu pops up, you flick the cursor over the ability you want to use, and then release the right mouse button to use it.
You might need a nested menu for abilities with options, like a summoning spell, but otherwise I think it would be a smooth, interactive way to play, and you wont have to clutter up the screen with a dozen hot bars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dragon's Dogma, which I've touted before for it's armor system, has possibly the best feeling combat I've played in a while, at least for the melee classes. The magic classes and abilities are rather clunky and awkward to execute, especially with aiming at targets, though the pay off when the spell is cast and hits is very satisfying.
At first I didn't like how Dragon's Dogma combat was setup. Especially since I like to play dagger/bow wielding characters. But when I changed to the Assassin class I found that I was really good at sniping things. I would often kill enemies before they could get close. I easily shot the griffons out of the sky, shot snow harpies flying really high up in the sky, and to my surprise took down the Dragon in about 15 seconds using my bow the first play through.
But saying that, I would not want to see that in PFO. Bow users would be way to powerful.