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I always liked the idea of a monk that was able to do sneak attack damage because of specialized training in pressure points and muscle controll to spread the damage more internally than externally so I came up with a simple solution/idea. Figured I would put it on these boards so it can be under honest scrutiny. Anyway, here it is:
Dim Mak (ex): this functions exactly like a rogue's sneak-attack ability, but treat your monk levels as rogue levels. Sneak attack dice from other classes levels(such as rogue, vivisectionist alchemist, etc) count towards your total level for determining your total number of sneak attack dice used. Sneak Attack dice can only be added to bludgeoning weapons or natural weapons. Also increase the DC of your Stunning Fist by 1. This ability replaces Flurry of Blows.
I understand that a ninja could do a lot of this type of thing, but not at early levels, and I don't always want to have to be stealthy-type. I felt it was in all combatants interest to catch your opponents off guard to do better offensively, and monks are certainly combatants, and wise ones at that.
If anyone sees any problems with this or wants to add more effects or change it for whatever constructive reason, please chime in!
What is the Dim Mak based off, fluff-wise?
What is the Dim Mak based off, fluff-wise?
Dim Mak is an actual formaiized technique in the real world. If I remember correctly, Dim Mak literally translates to "artery hit" or "touch of death". It is Chinese in origin.
I like it.
Can the Monk convert the damage to non-lethal somehow, or was the technique meant to be fatal?
Can the Monk convert the damage to non-lethal somehow, or was the technique meant to be fatal?
I'm open to the idea of non-lethal damage as an option just like a normal unarmed strike. That would make it synergize well with Sap Adept and Sap Master feats.
Maybe a variant ability that replaces some other Monk ability?
Maybe it replaces a bonus feat, or is included in the Dim Mak itself?
Maybe a variant ability that replaces some other Monk ability?
Maybe it replaces a bonus feat, or is included in the Dim Mak itself?
Well I would have it automatically included because a rogue with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can choose to use non-lethal or lethal damage. Sap adept and Sap Mastery are 2 feats so that already is a sacrifice to be made just like a rogue or ninja.
However, I could see them being included in the bonus feat list, though I don't want to shoe-horn anyone into thinking they should focus on non-lethal. I would also consider the Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder feats to replace other bonus feats, maybe the improved and greater grapple feats?
Sundering would be great for this monk. I'm really keen on devising a monk that specializes in destroying weapons and armor as a means to defeating opponents, so far the best option is the Iron Hide hobgoblin monk
Sundering would be great for this monk. I'm really keen on devising a monk that specializes in destroying weapons and armor as a means to defeating opponents, so far the best option is the Iron Hide hobgoblin monk
That was actually one my inspirations for this archetype. As I was reading about the hobgoblin archetype, I was thinking about it using those sundering techniques on his enemies' skulls.
Which inspires a new ability to add to this archetype: You can spend 2 points of Ki to apply your sneak attack damage to sunder attempts, though the items you are targeting must be apart of a creature that is flanked or denied its DEX bonus. This Ki ability replaces ???
-any ideas on what it should replace?
slow fall? also change "a part of" to "held by"
As the ability is now it allows nonlethal unarmed attacks, just like regular rogue sneak attack does. Just thought I'd point that out.
As the ability is now it allows nonlethal unarmed attacks, just like regular rogue sneak attack does. Just thought I'd point that out.
Yeah, that is my intention.
As another recent observation, this archetype could help out with the MAD issue, because of the extra damage you will be doing with sneak attack dice, you don't need so much strength.
I like this idea! Not the same, but for Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting, we are looking to build a possible new class called the acupuncturist (or something like that) who will have special paralyzation causing effects using acupuncture needles.
I don't always want to have to be stealthy-type.
I find it curious that most don't consider Monk a stealthy-type class, when Stealth is a class skill for every monk. In my opinion, monk has all the makings of superior ninja build, and never need to take the ninja class. Stealth as a class skill, with Slow Fall, having access to Spider Walk and Cloud Walk feats, using aspects of Qinggong monk to take spell-like abilities instead of Diamond Mind, etc. And 1 level of Assassin if you really need an assassinate/poison use ability.
I consider monk one of the stealth based classes, and an ideal spy/assassin build.
I like this idea! Not the same, but for Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting, we are looking to build a possible new class called the acupuncturist (or something like that) who will have special paralyzation causing effects using acupuncture needles.
I don't always want to have to be stealthy-type.I find it curious that most don't consider Monk a stealthy-type class, when Stealth is a class skill for every monk. In my opinion, monk has all the makings of superior ninja build, and never need to take the ninja class. Stealth as a class skill, with Slow Fall, having access to Spider Walk and Cloud Walk feats, using aspects of Qinggong monk to take spell-like abilities instead of Diamond Mind, etc. And 1 level of Assassin if you really need an assassinate/poison use ability.
I consider monk one of the stealth based classes, and an ideal spy/assassin build.
I actually agree with you, but a Monk doesn't have to rely on stealth like a rogue usually does. For the surprise round, stealth is very important, but once everyone has acted, smart tactics allows for more sneak attack opperatunitors. I'm aware that stealth can still help during combat, but I'm just stating that it is only one of the many options. But yeah monks can be really potent with stealth tactics, as can this archetype, but I just wanted an option to not be stealth-reliant.
While I know it just turns out that the ninja or ninja type monk will be in combat sometime, and after the stealthy character is exposed. However, in reality, spies and ninja have no business being in combat. You want to assassinate in a non-combat situation, until the actual act. Spying doesn't require ever being in combat. If a ninja had to engage in combat, he's already failed his mission...
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Hm, seems a little 'light' to just lose Flurry in order to gain Rogue-progression sneak attack (if I'm reading it right).
Also in a sense, isn't the Dim Mak already sort of 'quivering palm'? I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of some sorta precision damage added to Monk stuff, though again I think you should trade away more than Flurry to get it.
Neither the rogue and monk without flurry has any noticeable means to boost their attack bonus (outside of weapons etc). The monk can have higher weapon damage, but in doing so will have lower attack bonus and crit chance than the rogue. Both are about equally MAD IMO... I don't think the monk's offensive output with SA will be greater than the monks.
The monks defenses will of course be greater than the rogues, and the rogue will have some tricks up it's sleeve that the monk doesn't.
It might be a little cheap, but I don't think by much. I think it might step on the toes of the rogue a bit - but so has vivisectionist and ninja and archaeologist already done to a large degree; so large many use those classes for roguish characters instead of rogue. This might add rogue to the list of classes that outrogue the rogue in some ways, but I don't think it'll make the monk too good compared to those other classes.
Neither the rogue and monk without flurry has any noticeable means to boost their attack bonus (outside of weapons etc). The monk can have higher weapon damage, but in doing so will have lower attack bonus and crit chance than the rogue. Both are about equally MAD IMO... I don't think the monk's offensive output with SA will be greater than the monks.
The monks defenses will of course be greater than the rogues, and the rogue will have some tricks up it's sleeve that the monk doesn't.
It might be a little cheap, but I don't think by much. I think it might step on the toes of the rogue a bit - but so has vivisectionist and ninja and archaeologist already done to a large degree; so large many use those classes for roguish characters instead of rogue. This might add rogue to the list of classes that outrogue the rogue in some ways, but I don't think it'll make the monk too good compared to those other classes.
ninja is just a glorified rogue archetype. the big problem with the ninja is the same as the monk. so little Ki, and they literally bleed the stuff trying to keep up with other classes.
Classes that outshine the rogue at the rogue's role
Alchemist (Includes Vivisectionist, but not a requirement)
Magus (Dervish Dance builds can still get a decent perception and disable device due thier high intellect .)
Bard. (any bard is better, but sandman and archaeologist really hammer the nail in the coffin)
Ranger: (urban ranger mutilates the rogue's corpse)
Witch (Boatload of Skill points. at higher levels, a witch can fill in for a rogue)
Wizard (see witch.)
Sage Bloodline Wildblooded sorcerer archetype (see witch)
Any Intelligence based caster's Familiar as long as it has opposable thumbs and is capable of speech
Classes in the Dreamscarred Press Psionics line that can do it.
Cryptic (rogue/alchemist hybrid.)
Psion (see witch)
Tactician (see witch)
any intelligence based manifesting classes or archetypes i missed
Classes that outshine the rogue at the rogue's role
While the rogue of 3x and prior was more of a skill monkey, I've never seen 'skill monkey' as being the rogue's primary role - the fact that a bard is better at this makes a ton more sense. I see rogue as more Sneak Attack and Trapfinding with better than moderate skill monkey tool set.
I can agree that the urban ranger does indeed multilate the rogue's corpse, however.
Classes that outshine the rogue at the rogue's roleWhile the rogue of 3x and prior was more of a skill monkey, I've never seen 'skill monkey' as being the rogue's primary role - the fact that a bard is better at this makes a ton more sense. I see rogue as more Sneak Attack and Trapfinding with better than moderate skill monkey tool set.
I can agree that the urban ranger does indeed multilate the rogue's corpse, however.
all the classes i listed also contribute more to combat or utility than a rogue as well.
bard, ranger, alchemist, magus, and cryptic can all do more in combat than a rogue or even contribute nearly the same skills and provide partial casting. with the exception of maybe, the cryptic, the above are better combatants. but all of the above have either a trapfinding archetype or access to aram zey's trap ward. a 2nd level spell.
While the Psion, Tactician, Witch, Wizard, and Sage Bloodline Sorcerer are all full casters at the same time. though the other 4 options aren't as versatile as the wizard.
there are more ways to stop a trap than a disable device check. the dispel magic line, can suppress a magical trap. which can be autodetected by detect magic. and a wand of mount (a 1st level spell with a really long duration) is good for setting of traps.
you could hypothetically add inquisitor to the list. (find traps is a 2nd level spell for them)
Classes that outshine the rogue at the rogue's role
Rogues can have quite a number of roles, or should I say assignments in a party; for example, skirmishing fighter, scout, trap-fixer, face, and general tinkerer (umd, disable device etc). Many classes can outshine the rogue at one or a few of these, but not too many can do them all better than the rogue while still keeping a roguish flavor. That's why I mentioned the vivisectionist, ninja and archaelogist, as I think those outshine the bard without going too far away from the rogue concept when it comes to flavor (which I think for example witch, wizard, and sage does). If I want to play a character with the flavor of the typical rogue, I generally can't build that with witch. I can usually find one of vivisec, ninja and archaelogist that works though (and urban ranger - i forgot about that one).
And I didn't include 3pp material as that is, well, not pathfinder material and there's hundreds of sources for classes out there then, with varying degrees of balance.
Classes that outshine the rogue at the rogue's roleRogues can have quite a number of roles, or should I say assignments in a party; for example, skirmishing fighter, scout, trap-fixer, face, and general tinkerer (umd, disable device etc). Many classes can outshine the rogue at one or a few of these, but not too many can do them all better than the rogue while still keeping a roguish flavor. That's why I mentioned the vivisectionist, ninja and archaelogist, as I think those outshine the bard without going too far away from the rogue concept when it comes to flavor (which I think for example witch, wizard, and sage does). If I want to play a character with the flavor of the typical rogue, I generally can't build that with witch. I can usually find one of vivisec, ninja and archaelogist that works though (and urban ranger - i forgot about that one).
And I didn't include 3pp material as that is, well, not pathfinder material and there's hundreds of sources for classes out there then, with varying degrees of balance.
Shadiness and overall Larceny isn't exclusive to one class. you can just as easily have a larcenous and shady arcane caster with a similar background and personality to your typical rogue. it just takes a fair bit of tweaking.
Let the derailing begin!
For what it is worth... I would agree that the class already has something that represents the idea of pressure-point strikes.
Stunning Fist, which the monk already gets extra stuff with by being able to add more and more conditions to it, which culminates at Quivering Palm (as was mentioned).
Now.. an archetype that focuses on this and somehow makes it better... that would be something to see!
Sneak Attack in exchange for Flurry of Blows? Deal! I feel this is fair.
As a kung fu practitioner I feel it is needed to have Dim Mak users represented in the game. Monks study anatomy just as much as rogues. I like this!
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I remember Dim Mak from Palladium's Ninjas and Superspies. And I remember some pretty wack martial arts action in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon that seemed similar.
* I like the use of sneak attack to represent the deadly touch. Perhaps you could tweak Cheapy's Vicious Opportunist approach (in Rite Publishing's Secrets of Tactical Archetypes II - sorry can't link right now) to Sneak Attack - basically applies extra damage against targeted foes with a condition...
*Sundering doesn't feel thematically appripriate to me but if it does for you guys more power to you. Great idea, great archetype.
*Subdual seems naturally thematic to me - the use of pressure points or meridian channels/zen shiatsu points/whatever you want to call it to paralyze or otherwise knockout, incapacitate, or inflict non lethal conditions/damage.
*I don't think this archetype particularly needs to be stealthy either.
Nice one Green Dragon of NJ.
I remember Dim Mak from Palladium's Ninjas and Superspies. And I remember some pretty wack martial arts action in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon that seemed similar.
* I like the use of sneak attack to represent the deadly touch. Perhaps you could tweak Cheapy's Vicious Opportunist approach (in Rite Publishing's Secrets of Tactical Archetypes II - sorry can't link right now) to Sneak Attack - basically applies extra damage against targeted foes with a condition...
*Sundering doesn't feel thematically appripriate to me but if it does for you guys more power to you. Great idea, great archetype.
*Subdual seems naturally thematic to me - the use of pressure points or meridian channels/zen shiatsu points/whatever you want to call it to paralyze or otherwise knockout, incapacitate, or inflict non lethal conditions/damage.
*I don't think this archetype particularly needs to be stealthy either.
Nice one Green Dragon of NJ.
I agree, this class is more about putting someone in a vulenrable position in combat and then striking, which could be tumbling around to their backs, employing stunning fist and then striking, or perhaps some other ability that makes them flat footed for 1 round?