The argument has been made that life is too short to play with people you don't like, and if it comes right down to it, you're better off walking away. I agree, for the most part. At a convention, even at a local game day, I'm hip. Here's a question, though: What happens if you actually coordinate an event, and someone starts coming who you really don't like playing with?
For the sake of argument we'll say this player doesn't actually do anything wrong, so it's not a question of asking them to leave. But they mess with your fun, so you really don't want them at your table.
The trouble is, as one of two GMs--and the one in charge, for that matter--you can't bail. So what do you do?
(This is not actually related to the other thread I just started; these are based on two completely different [ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL, NO REALLY] people.)
Wow, thanks! That would be great advice under other circumstances.
Of course, there are no tickets being sold, and I'm not in any kind of business. I get some people together at a game store. I volunteer my time to coordinate the event because the event is fun. So I am actually there for myself. Other people as well, but myself in part, yes.
So maybe some advice that doesn't assume a bunch of things that aren't true would help? Or is your advice actually to just stop organizing a local game day because I'm hoping to find a way to avoid seating one person at my table? Because that seems pretty over the top.
Edit: Oh, and ... yeah, it is a gaming question, by virtue of being about gaming protocol. It's in Gamer Talk because it's not about anything rules specific, but it definitely falls within the purpose of these forums.
I really can't. I just don't like the guy. Everything about him rubs me the wrong way. It's not especially rational, and it's all on me. Which is why I'm not looking for a scorched earth solution. I'm just wondering if anyone has worked out a clever dodge for sliding people to other tables in that situation.
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There are no clever dodges around dealing with people. You have a problem with someone in that situation you either deal with it or keep a stiff upper lip. If there's more than one table than you can possibly prevail on whoever else is running tables to switch.
If the problem IS entirely with you, than maybe you should be taking this to someone on a more professional level.
Of course there are. People use them all the time. And I'm asking for advice on how to deal with it, since being in a position of coordination, I can't use my normal tactics, which are saying "I don't like you, go away" or simply going away myself.
As to the other, yes, thank you, you've made your opinion of this whole topic quite clear. I mean, it was subtle, but I think I get it. I just hope the irony of this all isn't entirely lost on you.
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I played for two-plus years with someone who rubbed me the wrong way. Every...other...Saturday.
So how did I cope?
Mostly I just shut up and tried to ignore him. Okay, so that didn't work as well as I liked when I ran a game for a bit, but it worked okay otherwise.
I have no strategy whatsoever about how to push the player off on another table. I would advise getting to know what they do like in the game you're running so you can possibly see if there's a more compatible game at the next table. But it's not my style personally to push off players I dislike.
(Plus: What's the deal lately with all the intolerant posts and general angries on the board? I don't get it.)
I really can't. I just don't like the guy. Everything about him rubs me the wrong way. It's not especially rational, and it's all on me. Which is why I'm not looking for a scorched earth solution. I'm just wondering if anyone has worked out a clever dodge for sliding people to other tables in that situation.
There's got to be some definable reason you don't like him. Identify that, and explain yourself to him. Say something like "I'm sorry, but the way you do X gets under my skin. So please find another game, or rein it in." Alternatively, if your reasons are truly inconsequential, use this as an opportunity to widen your comfort zone. (Don't like his hair? Don't like him because he has a Mac? Etc.)
Just enjoy yourself and silently savor how much better you are than him.
Every time he does something irksome, just remain quiet and smile to yourself, secure in the knowledge that he is wrong.
Works every time.
Walk up to the guy.
Tell him you're bothered by him.
Ask him to move to another table if he wouldn't mind please.
When he refuses because you have no definable reason why you don't like the guy and he feels like giving you an actual reason to be pissed off by staying when he knows you want him gone, be secure in the knowledge that you brought this on yourself.
Alternatively, be a man, suck it up, and deal with it. Everybody has to deal with people they don't like, even at friendly gatherings.
This may seem overly antagonistic but you've really given no reason why that shouldn't be the response given to you.
I adore the fact that I'm apparently a bad person for not wanting to have to run a table for someone I don't like on the one Saturday a month that I set aside for doing something fun (and, in so doing, allow a dozen or so others to do the same).
I'm just going to leave this right here and wander off now:
I adore the fact that I'm apparently a bad person for not wanting to have to run a table for someone I don't like on the one Saturday a month that I set aside for doing something fun (and, in so doing, allow a dozen or so others to do the same).
I'm just going to leave this right here and wander off now:
Not sure how this is relevant. You have a completely undefined, self-admittedly irrational dislike for someone in the group, and are angry because you didn't get the answers you were looking for on this forum, likely because most of the members are more mature and/or are more adept at dealing with other people than you are.
I did enjoy this little gem though:
Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend. Thus, they can't take criticism from friends -- criticism is experienced as a treacherous betrayal of the friendship, no matter how inappropriate the criticized behavior may be.
Ask him to leave, and give him a reason why he should, or suck it up and keep GMing. Those are your two options, take them or leave them.
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First off, for the people saying that the OP has an obligation to keep playing with the guy...no, he doesn't. Just because he's the GM, that doesn't mean he's any more OR LESS entitled to fun than the players.
Secondly, do any other members of the group share your dislike for the guy? If all or most of the rest of the group doesn't really like him that much, giving him the heave-ho will be less awkward.
Thirdly, where are you running the games? If it's in someone's home, then they can simply not invite him. It's how a former group of mine dealt with a player that rubbed all of us the wrong way...we just started meeting someplace new and didn't invite him. Ironically, we had originally been meeting in that guy's apartment.
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This is why many people don't go to conventions or games at FLGS.
Can we not demonize the OP because he doesn't like someone? The OP was nice (or naive) enough to host an open game for free. The OP is putting a lot of time and effort forward and in return he is getting a game he doesn't enjoy.
I would love to run a game at the FLGS so I can meet new and interesting people to game with. The problem is the people who I don't find interesting and don't want to game with are also there. And often in larger numbers than in general society, since where else can you game if you people don't like you enough to invite you to their home games.
Advice to the OP, you should try running one off games to find a group you like, and then have an invite only longer campaign.
My advice was genuine misanthropy.
I mean, you could try to be a forgiving person or whatever. But it's just easier to consider your not-being-them as a victory.
I can identify with the OP. I don't like the "suck it up and be a man" approach, because it doesn't help. It just leads to a game that is not fun for the Game Master, because he's having to put up with something that is irritating.
And if the consensus of this thread is that he is a whiner just for posting about it, it seems he's going to just have to bottle up his irritation. Doesn't sound optimal to me.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As far as immediate solutions go, it's true that your only options are to either suck it up and keep going, or talk to him.
For something a bit more long-term, I would consider investigating the fact that you can't put your finger on what bothers you about this guy. In order to identify it, pay attention to exactly when the irksome feelings arise. When they do, try to catch yourself and ask "what just happened the instant before the feelings came up?". This can be very helpful in identifying the real issues; even better if you can bring someone to help you spot it so you don't sabotage yourself (which you can do without meaning to). Sometimes my wife will point out that I'm obviously much more affected while mentioning X than I was when mentioning Y, despite my having originally thought that Y was more important than X. But if you don't have someone to "spot" for you, try to catch it yourself. Just be prepared to feel incredulous at first toward the data you uncover - after all, if it fit with what you were comfortable knowing, you'd probably know it already.
I anticipate one of two outcomes:
1) You simply haven't been sufficiently aware/articulate to pin down the exact behaviors that bothered you. The above exercise may help you pinpoint it.
2) You may already know but are protecting yourself from it. This could be because the annoying quality is shared by you or a loved one (don't want to admit being annoyed by them or sharing that quality) or because you believe it to be so petty that you're ashamed of being annoyed by it.
In any case, if you choose to investigate the issue, it will be neither quick nor easy, but has the potential to foster a lot of personal growth. :)
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The trouble is, as one of two GMs--and the one in charge, for that matter--you can't bail. So what do you do?
You decide if you really want to bail or not, and work from there. Unless you are physically restrained, you can always bail. You may not want to due to the social repercussions, but that's par for the course. Either find a solution, or leave.
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Patrick, I understand your predicament.
I've been in your situation before-- I was one of the organizers of my college gaming club, and I ran an open D&D table. My only exclusionary rule was that I had a maximum of 6 players at a given time. We played in one of the academic buildings every Friday night from 7 PM to midnight.
I had some people show up from time to time that I really didn't like.
This included...
...the crazy townie that once had a full psychotic episode at the table.
...the guy that didn't believe in soap.
...the borderline-autistic guy who didn't understand personal space or how to take turns speaking.
...the misogynist who always assumed that female players didn't know what they were doing.
...the Guy Who Always Played The Annoying Gnome.
...a woman I had dated for two weeks and then stalked me for years after I'd ended it.
But I also met my best friends of my college days. Sometimes, I would be amazed at the flashes of absolute brilliance from some of my less-than-stellar players.
So, for once a week for five hours, I ran a pretty vanilla RPG table with a mix of people that I really liked and a few people that I didn't. On the whole, I enjoyed my open games, even if an occasional session didn't go so well.
On Saturdays, I played in a private game with people that I really enjoyed playing with.
Your situation pretty much boils down to this: Are you having enough fun to justify spending a few hours interacting with somebody who rubs you the wrong way?
If "Yes," then continue running your open table, and grin and bear it.
If this guy really is sucking out all of your enjoyment, then you might need to quit running these open sessions, and make the game private--inviting only those people you like.
Honestly, you'll be going through life with people who rub you the wrong way. Your situation might be a good way to learn strategies for lessening the impact of their annoyance on your personal happiness.
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If this guy really is sucking out all of your enjoyment, then you might need to quit running these open sessions, and make the game private--inviting only those people you like.
This is pretty much the shortened version of what I was saying upthread. Maybe the other GM can take over doing the open sessions?
Of course, there are no tickets being sold, and I'm not in any kind of business. I get some people together at a game store. I volunteer my time to coordinate the event because the event is fun. So I am actually there for myself. Other people as well, but myself in part, yes.
Of course you should be in it partly for yourself. That's true of anything you volunteer for. You should enjoy or at least gain personal satisfaction from the task you're taking on whether it's ringing bells for the Salvation Army, cleaning dishes at a soup kitchen, passing out needles to the junkies living under the bridge, refereeing rec league soccer games, or coordinating gaming events at the FLGS.
But by volunteering, you also take on responsibility. Clearly, you realize this by saying you can't just bail on the situation. But that responsibility also entails being tolerant of other participants in the event even if they put you off in some vague and undefined way. If they're otherwise participating just like everyone else you actually like, since it's a public event, then I think your responsibility is to be tolerant. If you can't do that, your responsibility is to find someone to replace you who can be.
So, suck it up, buttercup, or find someone else who can.
No, give yourself over to hate...
I recall some events when I was in the university gaming club when I was in graduate school, and inevitably, you'd often end up at table with someone who was just unlikable or whatever for anything that was open to whomever shown up.
My general attitude was that it was a public event and to suck it up for the time that the game lasted. Take deep breaths, tune out the offending individual, and focus as hard as possible on the game itself. If someone was really irritating outrightly, I'd try to speak to them or at least say something along the lines like, "Look, we're both here for the game, otherwise, please don't talk to me." Not necessarily in that blunt a phrasing but pretty much that.
I've adopted a similar attitude for when I run one-shots and demos in game stores, but then those are just that -- one shots and demos, so I know the most I'll have to deal with an obnoxious person is for one session.
If I want to pick and choose my players, I run a private game by invitation only. If I want to play a public game, I accept that I'm going to have to have a wider tolerance level for people, and if need be, set an appropriate time limit to the campaign so if someone I don't like doesn't show up, I don't have to put up with them very long. And if I find I can't maintain that tolerance, then I don't participate in the public game anymore, yes, even if that means I'm the GM and I cancel the event (it would have to be an extreme circumstance causing me great personal stress for that to be the case, however). Yes, I know the post was if you *can't* just walk from the table -- but you always can. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences. If it's not appropriate to ask the other person to leave, then all I can do is remove myself. It may not be ideal, but in the end, all I can control is myself and what I choose to do or not. Hopefully though, I can maintain my patience with the relative stranger for the duration on the session and just focus on the game itself.
That's my personal opinion based on my personal experience.
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Y'know...I have a bit of a story about annoying players from the perspective of a player that (unwittingly) slightly annoyed others at an event.
So it was my second PFS session ever. I decided to make a sort of quick character personality based on Kitty Forman from "That 70's Show" and a sprinkling of real-life experiences with moms from Wisconsin. (The character in question is a LG Ulfen cleric of Iomedae who sounds like they are from the movie Fargo.)
I played the character true to the idea of valor and honor and real-live-goodness-dont'cha-know and momliness, and watched the slight horror on the faces of the other PFS players. For the first hour, a good 3/4 of them looked annoyed and even slightly angry. What was my crime? Why was I so annoying??
I found out after the game, after one of them relaxed a bit with my play style, that "PFS players don't generally play, you know, a full-on, um, character". I also learned that they thought I was going to be "one of those completely annoying RPers who sits there and keeps the session from ending on time".
It shocked me to learn what made the PFS guys around the table feel I was annoying at first was that they felt I was having WrongBadFun! But once they realized the RP bits were just *very* minor added "color", and that I wasn't about to add hours of RP to their functional session, I wasn't deemed "annoying".
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Y'know...I have a bit of a story about annoying players from the perspective of a player that (unwittingly) slightly annoyed others at an event.
So it was my second PFS session ever. I decided to make a sort of quick character personality based on Kitty Forman from "That 70's Show" and a sprinkling of real-life experiences with moms from Wisconsin. (The character in question is a LG Ulfen cleric of Iomedae who sounds like they are from the movie Fargo.)
That sounds like an awesome character for the record. Although how thick the accent might be might grate on me personally. But still. :)
I played the character true to the idea of valor and honor and real-live-goodness-dont'cha-know and momliness, and watched the slight horror on the faces of the other PFS players. For the first hour, a good 3/4 of them looked annoyed and even slightly angry. What was my crime? Why was I so annoying??I found out after the game, after one of them relaxed a bit with my play style, that "PFS players don't generally play, you know, a full-on, um, character". I also learned that they thought I was going to be "one of those completely annoying RPers who sits there and keeps the session from ending on time".
It shocked me to learn what made the PFS guys around the table feel I was annoying at first was that they felt I was having WrongBadFun! But once they realized the RP bits were just *very* minor added "color", and that I wasn't about to add hours of RP to their functional session, I wasn't deemed "annoying".
I think you have singlehandedly made me disinterested in the PFS. Mind I could never quite figure out how to join or start a sanctioned game (for some reason reading the start guide makes my brain shut off and I don't know why), but while I had always entertained in the back of my head doing so, because I sometimes like to run Pathfinder in stores, and it seemed like a good idea to bring the two together. I think I will give up on that notion now. That's probably a good thing because I don't really need the distraction.
On the another point though, I think you bring up an essential point that sometimes a major source of "contention" at the game table is essentially different people coming to the table with different gaming backgrounds, and assuming the coming game will always be like the ones before, even if it's with new GM and new players. Folks come in with expectations that end up not being met--and of course they don't need to be--and that irritates or disappoints them when of course no one knows what their expectations necessarily are. The moral of the story is, I'd imagine, check in and speak up. While you shouldn't disrupt a game, asking "why aren't we doing it this way?" or saying "you know, I'm really not used to playing like this, so I am sorry if I'm not performing as expected," or "you know, we normally don't have players do x" could end up being enlightening and/or helpful in some other way. This goes doubly for GMs, especially if they note players seem irritated or bored (which is essential to try and be aware of). Having a moment, perhaps privately if appropriate, and going, "Hey, what's going on, why were you frowning back there?" can nip a potential conflict in the bud.
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I think you have singlehandedly made me disinterested in the PFS. Mind I could never quite figure out how to join or start a sanctioned game (for some reason reading the start guide makes my brain shut off and I don't know why), but while I had always entertained in the back of my head doing so, because I sometimes like to run Pathfinder in stores, and it seemed like a good idea to bring the two together.
I reluctantly have to agree with you regarding PFS Organized Play.
I attended a single session of PFS at my FLGS a few months ago. It reminded me of all of the bad parts of playing at open gaming tables in college: all of the other players were high school or college-aged guys who constantly made immature sniggering sexual innuendos about female NPCs and then laughed out loud to themselves. None of them played first-person, or put any effort at all into role-playing. Instead, they talked constantly about meta-game stats and how to min-max the system. And the GM wasn't much better.
Plus I felt like a creepy old guy playing a game with strangers young enough to be my children, and getting a wary eye from some of the parents who dropped off their 14-year-olds. In other words, it was a real drag
I'm sticking to private games for the foreseeable future.
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I think you have singlehandedly made me disinterested in the PFS. Mind I could never quite figure out how to join or start a sanctioned game (for some reason reading the start guide makes my brain shut off and I don't know why), but while I had always entertained in the back of my head doing so, because I sometimes like to run Pathfinder in stores, and it seemed like a good idea to bring the two together.I reluctantly have to agree with you regarding PFS Organized Play.
I attended a single session of PFS at my FLGS a few months ago. It reminded me of all of the bad parts of playing at open gaming tables in college: all of the other players were high school or college-aged guys who constantly made immature sniggering sexual innuendos about female NPCs and then laughed out loud to themselves. None of them played first-person, or put any effort at all into role-playing. Instead, they talked constantly about meta-game stats and how to min-max the system. And the GM wasn't much better.
Plus I felt like a creepy old guy playing a game with strangers young enough to be my children, and getting a wary eye from some of the parents who dropped off their 14-year-olds. In other words, it was a real drag
I'm sticking to private games for the foreseeable future.
And this makes me sad, because it limits the expansion of the hobby when you can't go out and find a fun game.
As I said upthread I would love to run games at local stores or other places as a way to bring new people in. But I've seen so many times that one jerk can ruin the experience for everyone.
And that one jerk usually goes to the open games, because they got chased from home games because they were a problem.
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Aw, DQ, I feel badly that I might have disenchanted you to PFS before you tried it. I'd encourage at least one PFS session as a player, and of course running a group is a whole different ballgame. This one group was probably not typical.
While I admit PFS games aren't my thing generally, Session #3 was pretty good. I even got frustrated from a role-playing perspective with another person whose character was supposed to be LG but the dude ended up attacking goblins the group earlier agreed not to attack.
PFS has its pros! You do get to meet a diverse selection of roleplayers, see how other people's playstyles work (or don't), and you get to talk to folks outside your normal group about the best RP system on the planet! Plus you don't have to deal with evil characters in the party. That can be a plus. :)
To the OP if he is still lurking.
I have had those kinds of situations and know what you mean.
I think first you have to have a serious self gutcheck. this isnt an attack on you but before you go any further you have to decide wether its something you can get over or if its truly an all or nothing situation.
if you truely cant get over it then you have to be straight with him. take him to the side and let him know that X, Y and Z bothers the hell out of you. Let him know that your not really saying he is a bad person but somethings he does all the time bother you.
I had a guy in a group who was one of those smart asses who liked to pop a word in every time you paused in a scentence. Litterally if you were discribing a scene and said "you kick open the door and see..." he would jump in with "Your mom, ARGH!!!" he though it was funny and he did it all of the time.
at one point I took him to the side and said "Look I know your not trying to be a dick but you have no idea how much it pisses me off when you derail every third sentence with some smart ass comment. it annoys the hell out of me and interrupts the flow of the game" in this case he accepted his fault and apologized and has come a long way in NOT doing that kind of stuff. In another similar situation with another player the person had a fit we had an annoying argument and he threatened to quit... I stopped the game immediately and said "well its a great place to write you out of the story so we can just pick this up next week." I asked if any one else wanted to quit and his friend did so I allowed two new players into the game the next week and we continued the AP.
The bottom line is when you get into a situation that you cant ignore... deal with it. its not always going to be easy but at least the situation will be dealt with for better or worse... and to be honest its usually not as bad as you think it will be. some a-holes cant spell their own crap.