Your own argument just got killed, and you expect me to say any more?
Sorry, but I don't have to answer to you in any way. You already proved yourself wrong.
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Mine also teaches that you won't get away with it because you hurt the whole group.
Something tells me you may do a bit of cheating yourself.
Aaron's method prevents the group from being hurt and doesn't let the cheater get away with it either. The group is stronger because they have all come to an understanding together, and no one has been expelled.
Something tells me you think a lot of people cheat. I'm not sure what any of this adds to conversation, but there it is.
The only way anyone has a problem with my method is if they plan on cheating.
You claim to have been in the military, a chain is only as strong it's weakest link. When the whole group suffers then they ensure that their weakest link, the cheater, isn't hurting the group by continuing to cheat.
Funny how I'm the jerk for my punishment but the player isn't for cheating.
If that works in Aarons group then happy days, but everyone's group varies.
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Your own argument just got killed, and you expect me to say any more?
Sorry, but I don't have to answer to you in any way. You already proved yourself wrong.
Nobody killed my argument. Someone stated their opinion.
You won't because you can't, you are quick to throw out the comment but slow as a dead body to back it up.
I won't back it up any more than others already have, because I don't need to by this point.
Dude, are you like this with your players as well? Just accept that we don't agree with you, and move on.
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I'm worried about how your players feel about you far less than I am about cheating, to be honest.
Asking to leave and actually being thrown out are two different things. Negative level = Burden to group.
Oh, for pity's sake. You two just can't go five minutes without this sort of crap, can you? You tell him not to imply you can't find a GM who'll tolerate you, then you tell him his players probably hate him.
Is there somewhere else this drama could play out?
He can PM me if he wants to, but I'm pretty much done.
All the stuff I was going to say got ninja'd anyway, so yeah.
Besides, I already told him to move on, since this has gotten pointless.
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Just accept that we don't agree with you, and move on.
To be fair, you're the one who keeps snarking about Shallow's methods to anybody you can find a tangent to connect the matter to.
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I already finished, as I said in my last post above yours.
So, anyone else have tales of cheating or fudging to share?
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Cheating is something I don't think I could abide at my table, especially if somebody was being so unabashed about it.
I wouldn't shame the offender, or make a scene, or vengefully kill his character -- but after it has been established that *I* know he's an unrepentant cheater, and he knows I know... I will henceforth "Forget" to invite him back.
Somebody else in the thread said wisely that cheaters are bad for the hobby. It's important to put forth a good example.
I'll meditate on the issue further, but that's what I feel in my gut. If the player brings great RP value or depth to the campaign I might go the extra mile and take steps that would preclude their cheating, like requiring THEIR rolls to be made on an automatic dice-server or similar device... something to KEEP them honest, if their presence enhanced the game but a kind of Pathos prevented them from not fudging. But unrepentant and wonton cheating? I'd have to drop the hammer eventually.
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The only way anyone has a problem with my method is if they plan on cheating.
You claim to have been in the military, a chain is only as strong it's weakest link. When the whole group suffers then they ensure that their weakest link, the cheater, isn't hurting the group by continuing to cheat.
Funny how I'm the jerk for my punishment but the player isn't for cheating.
If that works in Aarons group then happy days, but everyone's group varies.
Clearly it is not the only way someone can have a problem, since icy and I will never play in your group and we still have a problem with it.
I don't know why you continue to attack me and not my argument, first with the cheating comment and now with the 'claim to be in the military' comment. (Which isn't the first time, and is doubly puzzling since I have shown proof of my service to you.)
You know how the group also suffers? When one of the links is removed. That's time when the group is weaker due to being smaller. It's why the military attempts to rehabilitate weak links before removing them.
I think the negative level practice might be a good idea if cheating is an ongoing problem (and it sounds like it is in Shallow's game). If players keep cheating, and just making them reroll/auto-fail isn't enough, maybe the threat of something more lasting will get them to realize playing legit will get them further.
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Which is funny, since shallowsoul berated me the other day for saying I would expel a player from the group.
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Which is funny, since shallowsoul berated me the other day for saying I would expel a player from the group.
I've never once berated anyone over ejecting someone from a game for cheating. There is a difference in sundering a weapon and cheating.
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I think the negative level practice might be a good idea if cheating is an ongoing problem (and it sounds like it is in Shallow's game). If players keep cheating, and just making them reroll/auto-fail isn't enough, maybe the threat of something more lasting will get them to realize playing legit will get them further.
That's correct.
I used to only cause someone to auto miss, or even lose their turn but that didn't do the trick so I did the negative level thing to stop the cheater from cheating and to involve the rest of the group by causing that player to become a burden on everyone else so they would step in and stop the cheater from cheating.
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Kinda funny how the same people that, for some reason, take offense to my negative level punishment are the same ones that aren't condemning cheating in the first place.
It's auto "DM is a Jerk", "DM's method is not good etc", even though someone is cheating at the game. This is why I believe we have some cheaters cause why else would you be worried about my method of punishment if you don't cheat to begin with?
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Talk to them. Cheating can be somewhat understandable if the situation is dire enough (though not necessarily right). Ask players to roll in the open.
Uhhhhhh no.
Cheating at a game that is made up should never be justified unless you are kidnapped by a madman who tells you that if you don't defeat the dragon he is going to kill you in real life.
If you ever feel the need to cheat at an RPG then please please find another hobby.
What do you do when you catch a player fudging the dice?
We have a long-standing policy that dice rolls are rolled in the open in front of everyone and must be confirmed before being picked up. If this doesn't happen, then the person must roll again.
The DM rolls behind his/her screen if opponent statistics can be easily derived from seeing the dice rolls (which is most of the time). Once any statistics have been derived by the players during combat (usually only in long combats), then the DM should roll out in the open.
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I dunno. I think we've all cheated before. Maybe "forgot" a modifier here or there, moved an extra step on the grid, or cast a spell we didn't have prepared. Really, people are human, and I think you're way overreacting.
We aren't talking about making a mistake, we are talking about when people knowingly cheat.
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Yes, I'm speaking of the times people have done these things knowing they're cheating, but choosing to do them anyway. It's not right, but it's somewhat understandable, given human nature. I think a GM needs to be mindful of such human failings when leading an RPG. This is a hobby which brings out the best and worst of people, and coaxes them to show their true nature. And some players cheat. It's a sad truth, but I don't think it does much good to de-level them or kick them out, unless that person is really ruining the group's fun (in which case, go for it). I think the best thing you can do is have an open and understanding dialogue with everyone at the table about the situation. Cheating in an RPG is actually usually a symptom of an underlying problem. Maybe the encounters are too hard? Maybe the players want you to lead in some other fashion? Cheating is a sign that the players are completely refusing to accept the game-reality that the GM is attempting to set, and that is very dangerous for the health of the campaign. I think talking and dialogue are better than permanently spiting a player. All it will do is cause bad feelings at the table and seriously dump on the group's fun.
By the way, if you disagree with what I said, that's fine, I understand. To each his own. I'm just trying to offer the advice that I feel maximizes the amount of fun you'll have at the table. De-leveling and punishing a player don't really contribute to that, I feel.
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And what makes my method so bad again?
If you are a cheater then it's bad but that's the whole point, I don't coddle cheaters.
You dont coddle anyone, or make allowances for anyone. There's no give in you. That doesnt mean, however, you accept cheaters, but your method is using a sledge hammer to crack a peanut. Its the same method you proscribe in other threads for other issues.
Generally if your a cheater its not the whole point. Some folks are out and out cheats and jerks, others not so much and have other reasons why. Your not dealing with the root causes of why someone cheats, rather just dealing with symptoms. The other DM's method gets down to the root causes much more then you ever look.
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News Flash!Cheaters are a burden on the group, not my method of punishment. That's like blaming the state for giving you 10 years for Grand Theft Auto instead of blaming yourself for stealing the car in the first place.
The point is to not make it easy for someone that's cheating.
Hmmm no. Technically it depends on the cheater- if he's a jerk besides, he's a burden on the group. On the other hand, if their are other reasons for cheating, then no he's not a burden on the group. Doesnt make it right, but it doesnt make it a burden.
Again, your example shows exactly why your way isnt the best method, your mindset- Stealing a car is always bad. Always. They must be punished.
But what if stealing the car was something to say, support a family and didnt have other options? Or how about if they were blackmailed into it ala gone in 60 seconds? Or how about if they stole the car to rush someone to the hospital?
Your example exemplifies your mindset and shows why it was bad- you deal only in absolutes. Your calling another poster a possible cheater shows that yet again when they disagree with you.
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The only way anyone has a problem with my method is if they plan on cheating.
Strawman arguement. Again, exemplifies your extreme methods- there is one black ro white. Nothing else. Either we agre or we're cheaters.
Funny how I'm the jerk for my punishment but the player isn't for cheating.If that works in Aarons group then happy days, but everyone's group varies.
Your a jerk becuase you think your way and thoughts are the only ones. There isnt any room for give- which we have seen in another thread. Your way or the highway.
yet at the of this, you say that not everyone's group is aarons, then you would have to agree your method isnt the only method, nor even the right one.
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Kinda funny how the same people that, for some reason, take offense to my negative level punishment are the same ones that aren't condemning cheating in the first place.
It's auto "DM is a Jerk", "DM's method is not good etc", even though someone is cheating at the game. This is why I believe we have some cheaters cause why else would you be worried about my method of punishment if you don't cheat to begin with?
So we're either with you or against you? Either we think your method is proper or we're cheaters as well?
DO you even listen to yourself? Funny how your argument boils down to "either I'm right or your a cheateer". Again, no give, no reasoning, just the sledge hammer method you have doled out in this thread and others.
Could you not see why some would consider your method the "DM is a jerk" method? To coin a phrase you stated earlier:
"That's like blaming the state for giving you 10 years for Grand Theft Auto instead of blaming yourself for stealing the car in the first place. "
Perhaps you should heed your own advice.
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