Given the stacking negatives at a -6 and the ki expenditure it doesn't seem two bad.
Is it right that he can throw EIGHT Shuriken with his combination? (2 from BAB +6/+1, two extra from Improved TWF, two extra from Flurry of Stars, one extra from Haste, one extra from Rapidshot)
At lvl 8? Getting full SA with every single attack if the enemy is flat-footed?
Looks correct to me.
Applying the penalties and bonuses from that (and ignoring handedness and attack order) you've got 6 attacks at +1, and 2 attacks at -4. (just BAB and penalties, with haste bonus)
Holy returning Shuriken
That's got to get expensive.
"Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown."
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality."
"Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used."
The exceptions for Magic Ammunition and Breakage is only for arrows, bolts, and sling bullets.
So 50 +1 Holy Returning Shuriken (+4 equivalent) costs 32,310 gold, 646.2 gold each. That's over 5,000gp per round.
What grick is saying is that they don't return.
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The Returning property does nothing on shuriken. They're destroyed on a hit, so there's nothing left to come back to you at the start of your next turn.
As things stand right now, though, 50 +1 Holy Returning shurikens cost 32,000gp; they each cost 640gp. In a given round, he throws 5,120gp at the enemy. Assuming standard WBL, he'll expend every gold piece he's ever earned in ~6.5 rounds. The problem here is not the ninja; the problem is the GM who let him get away with this massive BS.
EDIT: T-T-T-TRIPLE NINJA!
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Also, shuriken are ammunition so they would be destroyed on throwing if he hits and would survive only 50% of the time if he misses. So, the real question is how can afford to lose 8 +4 equivalent weapons a round even with them being enchanted as ammunition. This would be 5120 gp a round lost if he hits with all of his attacks, even if he lost the returning due to it not really doing anything for him that is still 2880 gp a round.
Edit: Wow, when I started this post it was on post 2, thats a lot of ninja. ;P
Let's not forget the 10' range . I doubt all the targets in that round are with in 10 feet . -2 per 10' adds up fast . Also everyone hit needs to be flat footed and I think you can only use snipe with one shot a round as you need to re-stealth . Wait until the ninja hits 10 th level and gets invisible blades , he will get realty sick .
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Also remember that:
1. During Suprise round (caused by attacking from stealth) you only get a standard action, so one attack.
2. If the ninja is stealthed attacks only the first attack is from stealth. After that everyone knows where he is unless he snipes (which requires a move action.
3. Rakasha have a 19 flatfooted AC. so with a -6 to all attacks he shouldn't be hitting with all of them. If he is, check his bonuses.
He's got about 11-12 Ki-Points, so he can use Vanishing Trick and Flurry of Stars for 5-6 Rounds, and thats only counting if the Encounter isnt over after 1 Round. With Vanishing trick, he's always Sneaking them since normal Rakshasa cant do anything against Invis, and he is balancing out the -20 to sniping via the Stealth bonus invisibility provides.
Vanishing Trick and Flurry of Stars both use a swift action, so you can't use both in the same turn.
If he's invisible (either from Vanishing Trick or the spell) he stops being invisible once he attacks.
If combat has already begun, then as soon as he makes his first attack, he's visible, and the foes are no longer denied dex.
If combat has not yet begun, then there's a surprise round, in which he cannot full-attack, nor can he snipe.
If he's sniping, he's making a single attack, not a full-attack.
There's a decent chance that, aside from the house rule about invincible shuriken, there's still something else going wrong at the table.
We haven't found a clause that states that flat-footed ends for every enemy as soon as he starts attacking.
Flat-footed ends as soon as they get a chance to act.
The Invisible condition allows you to ignore their dexterity bonus to AC, which allow sneak attacks. As soon as invisibility breaks, you no longer ignore their Dex to AC, so no more sneak attack.
-edit- Dev citation:
Your first attack breaks the invisibility. It doesn't matter if you're using TWF, natural attacks, or iterative attacks: when that first attack happens, invisibility ends, and all your other attacks are made without the benefit of invisibility.
Yeah, the DM houseruled them to be Thrown weapons for the purposes of throwing, not ammunition, because "Everyone should have his fun, and if his weapons break, he wouldnt be ninja-like" >_>
Ah, but if they count as Thrown Weapons, he will have to pay for them as if they were Thrown Weapons. All 8 of them, since they won't return for his next attack, but at the end of the round.
You cannot have the advantages of both worlds (durability of a weapon, price for ammunition).
Since they aren't used up, he can also strike through specific DRs, so thats no problem for him.
Huh? In what way is the 'not being used up' clause linked to 'overcoming specific DRs'?
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I believe there's a rogue talent that lets a rogue full attack in the surprise round. I know the teamwork feat Lookout lets you do it, but of course you need an ally to take the feat too. Or a friendly neighborhood cavalier to grant it to you. Before you've had your surprise round attack.
Which raises another question-- if this ninja's initiative is so high, how'd the wizard get to go before him in order to cast haste?
In order for all this to work, this ninja needs to:
1)Make his perception check. (Not too hard)
2)Succeed on a stealth check. (Pretty easy for a ninja who specializes in it)
3)Beat the initiative of any enemies who are aware of him, yet still have the wizard go before him. (Depends on the wizard)
There's a lot of opportunity for rolling 1's in all that, and even then, he needs three feats (TWF, ITWF, Lookout) to pull it off. At level 8, a ninja only has four feats (five if human). If that rogue talent I think I remember really exists, then he could use that instead of Lookout, and another rogue talent for a bonus combat feat, but then plus Flurry of Stars he's almost out of ninja tricks.
Even if we concede that he can in fact throw eight shuriken in a full attack when buffed, getting SA dice on all eight is something that will happen maybe once every two levels, IF he built his entire character around it. And taking the enchanted shuriken issue into consideration, his damage output shouldn't be this high even if he does get eight sneak attacks in a round.
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I think Grick clarified it nicely for me. But as far as rules go.
First off under the Stealth Skill:
"It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Then
"If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."
You cannot attack and stay stealthed while attacking without sniping. So the first attack means you are know longer stealthed so your enemies are not denied dex.
I must admit, you lost me.
He could do that with nonmagical Shuriken as well, limiting his possibilities, sure, but not against Rakshasa, for example.
Nonmagical Shuriken cannot be holy (or aligned) on their own.
If they are Ammunition, they break on impact.If they are thrown weapons, he'll require an Align weapon on every single one of them.
So much for beating DR easily.
Plus, just out of curiosity...
Alter self gives him another +2 on dex, making it +12/+7.
How did the Ninja come by this spell? Last time I checked, it was pretty much 'personal only' for the spellcaster. Is he using his own wand?
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I know this is the default answer but if this is bugging you, you should talk to your group. If your not having fun cause one guy is doing everything let them know. Ask for more buffs on you and have the wizard cast invisibility on you so you can partake in the surprise round destruction.
All that being said I have found that these tactics are often useless on a boss as bosses at that level have 20+ perceptions and 7+ initiatives. and even at his best attack bonus I would be surprised if the ninja hit with more than half his attacks on that first round.
Edit: I also agree about the house rule problem. Talk to the group about removing the houserule or fully using it. IE: Shuriken are not ammo so you draw them as weapons (need quick draw) must be made masterwork and enchanted separately etc.
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The moral of the story is that when you make special house-rules to let people do extra things and then give them unlimited gp, they become very powerful. Who would have thought? Even the "shuriken are weapons, not ammo" rule wouldn't have been so bad if your GM hadn't made other allowances.
Eight +1 Holy Returning shurikens (treated as throwing weapons instead of ammo) would cost 258k, and that's not even counting whatever the ninja has spent on that wand, Dex belt, other consumables, armor, etc. Is everyone else getting access to this much wealth? Has your GM been increasing the CR of monsters to account for the increased APL this huge amount of extra wealth should cause?
I believe there's a rogue talent that lets a rogue full attack in the surprise round.
That's an archetype, not a talent, so the ninja can't have it.
It's more that the houserules don't help the issue. The additional damage from that house rule is still less from the extra damage from sneak attack.
Him getting 8 +1 holy returning shuriken for 5,120 gp when 8 thrown weapons with the same stats would go for about 256,000 gp is just the icing on the cake.
The moral of the story is that when you make special house-rules to let people do extra things and then give them unlimited gp, they become very powerful. Who would have thought? Even the "shuriken are weapons, not ammo" rule wouldn't have been so bad if your GM hadn't made other allowances.
This. Your DM has allowed the creation of quite a one-trick pony. It seems especially odd that he has the exact weapons he needs to bypass a Rakshasa's DR. Along with DM Santa Claus, I suspect there's quite a bit of metagaming going on behind the scenes.
This guy at level 8 is one-shotting CR 10's because the DM and himself constructed it that way.
He'd have absolutely no chance of winning against my CR 11 Bard/Witch (similar dex, ridiculous intitiative, ridiculous perception, and ridiculous Stealth herself. Add in the Scent and you're spotted). I can see it now. "Oh, look, a sneaky Ninja. Hi, there, sneaky Ninja. Meet my Slumber Hex. Haste all you want, it just makes you snore faster."
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prayer does not lower ac, and is subject to SR which the creatures have.
alter self only give him dex if he become small but does not change the the size of EQ. This he take -2 to all attack rolls with his weapons are no longer sized correctly. he no longer has any armor that fits also encumbrance and str will also come into play.Also The Bardic music is going to ruin his stealth. If he can hear it and get the effects, So can the bad guys Thus ruin surprise. He will only get his sneak once more then likely thus his damage is going to be greatly reduce.
As others have stated the problem is the house rules in your game.
[Polymorph] spells resize armor and weapons to your new size.
Just a few notes: The Rakshasa is not a CR10 unless it has all of it's (double) equipment. IE: the flatfooted AC should be higher than 19.
At a 28dex the ninja should only be able to go ahead of the Rakshasa 65% of the time. If the Rakshasa has any dex boosters that gets reduced.
As others have stated, I think the shuriken are still being priced as ammo even though the house rule has converted them to weapons. Unless of course your GM is handing out so much WBL that you can buy 4 (or more) 32300gp weapons.
Finally, he can get away with 2 +1 holy weapons (18,300gp each) if he purchases a Blinkback belt (5,000gp). But that is still way over WBL for a level 8 character. He should drop the holy and use align weapon instead for the means to bypass good.
In short: if the house rule is used properly (which I think it is not) and ALL other rules are followed then it is 2 extra attacks over what a rogue can do and it shouldn't be that bad.
- Gauss
Anyone else think the Ninja is sleeping with the DM in real life?
qutoes, not really. I think this is a comedy of errors and rules misunderstandings.
Error 1: Pricing the houseruled shuriken as ammunition instead of thrown weapons.
Error 2: Incorrectly running invisibility (benefiting from multiple attacks etc).
Error 3: Misunderstanding how returning weapons work. They do not return until just before your next turn.
I do not know how the OPs GM is running the Rakshasa but if I were running it then its Flat-footed AC would start at 23 (mage armor should be a daily spell the Rakshasa casts while using a Rod of Extend Spell). It would then have at least a +1 Natural Armor enhancement and a +1 deflection bonus. That would bring its AC up to 25 while flat-footed.
It should have 10,900gp worth of equipment (double normal).
Ring of Protection (2k), Amulet of Natural Armor (2k), +1 Kukri (2.3k), Rod of Extend Spell (3k), +1 Cloak of Resistance (1k). Total: 10.3k
That leaves 600gp for consumables.
The Rakshasa should also be aware of the players moving through the area (minions etc). Detect Magic or Detect Thoughts would both reveal an invisible character moving in to attack the Rakshasa. One round of Detect Magic would not reveal location of course but it would reveal the presence of such a creature. Three rounds of Detect Thoughts will also not reveal the location of an invisible creature but it will allow the Rakshasa to determine it is present.
- Gauss
Gauss I was joking :-)
Yeah, the DM houseruled them to be Thrown weapons for the purposes of throwing, not ammunition, because "Everyone should have his fun, ....
Through a house rule everyone has fun with the exception of all other players than the ninja.
qutoes: Ahhh humor, without a tag it is hard to know that via text.
- Gauss
Yeah, the DM houseruled them to be Thrown weapons for the purposes of throwing, not ammunition, because "Everyone should have his fun, ....Through a house rule everyone has fun with the exception of all other players than the ninja.
This.
Bad DM. Didn't think it through.
Yeah, the DM houseruled them to be Thrown weapons for the purposes of throwing, not ammunition, because "Everyone should have his fun, ....Through a house rule everyone has fun with the exception of all other players than the ninja.
Direct the DM to this thread. Unless he's a colossal arse, he'll change his mind regarding that rule.
Hi there,
Got a question and I thought I'd get a confirmation here:
We got a lvl 8 Ninja in our group, and the dude's kicking A**. He's got a dexterity of around 24-26, and his combo is this:-Two-weapon-Fighting
-Improved Two-Weapon-Fighting
-Rapidshot
-Ninja Trick: Flurry of Stars
-Haste from the party WizardIs it right that he can throw EIGHT Shuriken with his combination? (2 from BAB +6/+1, two extra from Improved TWF, two extra from Flurry of Stars, one extra from Haste, one extra from Rapidshot)
At lvl 8? Getting full SA with every single attack if the enemy is flat-footed?We had that problem yesterday - He downed 4 CR 10 dudes all by himself (Rakshasa, so not THAT able in Combat, and they didnt see him because he's got a stealth check of around +21). His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9 (str+Enhancement Bonus+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim)), meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react (Because of his gigantic Initiative).
That can't be right, can it? TWF states that its rules also apply to thrown weapons, Flurry of stars doesnt say anything about it not stacking with haste or TWF, same thing with Rapid shot. How can a character have as many attacks as he has levels? Is this really legitimate?In Comparison, a "normal" Rogue-Build has 5 Attacks at lvl 8 (2 BAB+ Improved TWF + Haste), albeit dealing 3x4d6 less damage at the very least (or 18d6 in case of a holy weapon).
And that is what happens when you allow multiple sneak attacks in a round. A level 8 kills 4 CR 10s in a single round.
Eight precision sneaks in a round? Sure, stick with it if you want it, lawl.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hi there,
Got a question and I thought I'd get a confirmation here:
We got a lvl 8 Ninja in our group, and the dude's kicking A**. He's got a dexterity of around 24-26, and his combo is this:-Two-weapon-Fighting
-Improved Two-Weapon-Fighting
-Rapidshot
-Ninja Trick: Flurry of Stars
-Haste from the party WizardIs it right that he can throw EIGHT Shuriken with his combination? (2 from BAB +6/+1, two extra from Improved TWF, two extra from Flurry of Stars, one extra from Haste, one extra from Rapidshot)
At lvl 8? Getting full SA with every single attack if the enemy is flat-footed?We had that problem yesterday - He downed 4 CR 10 dudes all by himself (Rakshasa, so not THAT able in Combat, and they didnt see him because he's got a stealth check of around +21). His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9 (str+Enhancement Bonus+Point Blank Shot+Deadly Aim)), meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react (Because of his gigantic Initiative).
That can't be right, can it? TWF states that its rules also apply to thrown weapons, Flurry of stars doesnt say anything about it not stacking with haste or TWF, same thing with Rapid shot. How can a character have as many attacks as he has levels? Is this really legitimate?In Comparison, a "normal" Rogue-Build has 5 Attacks at lvl 8 (2 BAB+ Improved TWF + Haste), albeit dealing 3x4d6 less damage at the very least (or 18d6 in case of a holy weapon).
Make sure your DM realizes that unless the ninja has greater invisibility, he should only be getting sneak damage on the first shuriken in a round, because attacking automatically kills your stealth check. The only way to keep hidden when attacking but not invisible is to use the sniping rules.
Make sure your DM realizes that unless the ninja has greater invisibility, he should only be getting sneak damage on the first shuriken in a round, because attacking automatically kills your stealth check. The only way to keep hidden when attacking but not invisible is to use the sniping rules.
Well... if the ninja wins Initiative (which he seemed to do), he will catch his target(s) flat-footed with the entirety of his attack pattern, invisible or not.
.And that is what happens when you allow multiple sneak attacks in a round.
Last time I checked, 3.5, which you appear to be claiming loyalty to, allowed for multiple sneaks in a round, as well...
.However,
We had that problem yesterday - He downed 4 CR 10 dudes all by himself (Rakshasa, so not THAT able in Combat)...
His damage accumulated to around 30-40 per shuriken (Holy returning Shuriken, so they're 6d6+1d2+9... meaning he downed them all in one round, without breaking a sweat and before they could react
6d6+1d2+9 averages on 31.5, which is a tad below the '30-40' you claim.
Maximum would be 47. A crit (which is not that frequent with Shurikens) adds a mere 1d2+9, for another 10-11 points.According to PRD, your friendly vanilla Rakshasa has 115 hit points.
Which means, he needs 4 sneak hits on average for a Rakshasa; or 3 with really high damage rolls.
I am not quite sure how he managed to dispatch all 4 of them in a single round, with 8 attacks, even with all of these shenanigans going on.