Ok, so as per usual my players will be fed to a Tarrasque if they read this post.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Now I'm all for slaying demons but if there was ever a wish that needed to be harshly twisted about this would be the one.
Who's got an extra helping of nasty for me?
I'd inflict the rogue with a wasting disease that slowly ate away at his Constitution. High DC saves to resist the effect, but incureable until he'd made amends.
Really that should have been enshrined in the agreement to give the wish in the first place - by killing the glabrezu he's reneged upon the contract and deserves to have his wish reversed.
What were his exact words, as best you can recall?
Did he simply wish, "I wish I had more a healthier constitution?" In which case when he wakes up he should learn that the point value of the constitution came at the cost of an equal point value reduction to his Dex. Both of which will fade in three days, because he didn't say permanent.
If he wished for permanent, make the above permanent.
Alternatively, you could add various side effects that would be visual representations of his new vigor. I would go with demonic features with no bonuses inherent. Red skin, yellow eyes, and black nub horns, for instance.
You could also make the bonus attach to the survival of the demon. Essentially, the demon linked its life force to that of the rogue (as the demon's method of insurance.) Since they destroyed the grantor, not only did his Con bonus perish, but the link with the demon granting the wish was such that with his demise, the rogue is now at a -1 con.
I'd inflict the rogue with a wasting disease that slowly ate away at his Constitution. High DC saves to resist the effect, but incureable until he'd made amends.
Really that should have been enshrined in the agreement to give the wish in the first place - by killing the glabrezu he's reneged upon the contract and deserves to have his wish reversed.
I don't agree with the disease. Unless a formal agreement was established through some ritual (though that's more the purview of devils than demons), rescinding the Wish is appropriate.
Really, he should have been told what would happen as soon as he broke his word. I'm not sure what you can really do here without being excessively punitive. If you're OK with that (I wouldn't be, for fear of alienating my players out of something they "rightfully" tricked the demon into), then I can support some kind of disease. I might rather see several demons get upset and maybe start making efforts to see the PCs get "dealt with". Devils might also be upset that this breach of a "contract", and see to it that PCs get a dose of their own medicine.
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Have him awaken the next morning with scaly skin, like a demon's. Sure, he's got a higher Con, but it also comes with a demonic stench, an inhuman appearance and a certain predilection towards...doing wrong.
In fact, I'd let him enjoy his increased Constitution for a few days, and then have him start growing a tail, skin, yellow eyes, etc. His humanity slips away, and every wise man and woman in the land admonish him "You betrayed a demon...?!! What did you expect? It wasn't a demon you betrayed lad, it was the Abyss itself! Of course they're going to exact their toll!"
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I think that a +1 constitution is a fair reward for besting a wish granting demon. After all, they'll need it now that they got the attention of demon kind.
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Don't twist the wish. Let him enjoy his +1 constitution.
Sooner or later he's going to come into contact with another demon or come close to the Abyss in some way, and then the demons will come to claim their own. Killing a demon after making a deal with it seems like a very chaotic evil thing to me.
If he manages to escape from the demon hordes/whatever unholy magic abomination they fling at him he can keep his prize. If not, he gets to enjoy his extra constitution in the Abyss, where being harder to kill is hardly a blessing.
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I like the idea that this CON bonus comes from somewhere sinister. To my understanding a Glabrezu's wish usually comes about in the most destructive way possible, destructive not only to the PC, but to those around/close to them. This is a great opportunity to derail the story a little bit. Maybe the seemingly slain Glabrezu is somehow attached to its killer (possessing even, and providing a boon to CON).
Or try this on for size (provided it fits or course). Even being CN, the character can easily still have strong ties to family. This CON bonus is drawn from the health of his entire bloodline, sort of a focusing of his being if you will. With the grantor of this wish now slain this focusing is becoming uninhibited. Make his wish progressively, lots better. Every time he successfully saves against disease he gains temporary hit points, when he resists drain he gets a profane CON bonus, etc. All the while he is unknowingly drawing this resilience from his family (or obviously drawing it from nearby living things). Perhaps a new disease crops up in people he doesn't even know he is distantly related to. Every time he thrives, every time his fortitude saves him, whenever he succeeds at "being healthy" others suffer, many others. And its all. His. Fault.
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Have him slowly turn into a relatively useless creature with the same Constitution as his new wished up stat. Keep his other stats the same though. He might eventually become a boar or large oxen.
In this way, the Glabrezu kept his wish as per the deal, but made it essentially guaranteed that the character was going to die and then hell could collect his soul. It's the type of thing a Glabrezu would do.
Cheers
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This seems to be an issue of demon vs devil.
A devil is concerned with the collection of souls,
A devil would see fit to mark the recipient of the wish with horns or evil looking features
A devil wants him to get what he deserves
A Glabrezu is a demon
the demon does not care about punishment
the demon exists to consume, to destroy
To a devil a wish is a means of securing a soul, and thereby status, power
To a demon a wish is simply permission to ruin stuff, as much stuff as possible.
This is an opportunity to spread the pain not just punish the character. There is a dying curse on this thing, shape the world dude, shape the world.
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^I s'pose you're right, a demon might not much care about torturing one guy for all eternity when he could torment that guy by making his wish come from others' pain.
I second the "Con bonus comes at the cost of family/friend's health" idea. Might be a nice starting point for an adventure of some kind "The quest to fix what this a%*#&&* broke" and get their health back.
+1 to Con you say? How about at the expense to -1 to Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha, whichever his character is based on. It had to come from somewhere and demons, especially a Wish granting Glabrezu, would want to destroy something to make it happen.
But I personally agree with Rynjin's earlier posting...don't punish him overtly. Demonkind will have marked him especially, and any party he is with will now run the risk of facing that retribution as well.
I think twisting the wish because the PC killed the demon immediately after is unfairly punitive; I mean it seems in line with the PCs alignment.
On the other hand twisting the wish because it came from a demon is fair game IMO, since there's no reason the demon wouldn't have tried to twist the wish in the first place.
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Unless I'm missing something, how exactly could the Glabrezu twist the Wish as punishment for being killed when he's dead?
The Glabrezu offered a Wish, the Rogue accepted and got the Wish; then the Rogue killed the Glabrezu. I could totally see the wish being twisted if the demon KNEW he was immediately gonna get betrayed, but unless they can read minds now, he wouldn't.
To me, it kinda seems like the Rogue properly one-up'd the demon and got away with it, unless there's some way to retroactively alter a Wish that doesn't invoke Rule 0 (because then you might just come off as sour because the player was clever).
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For some reason, I'm not even sure why, I thought of constitution (curse wise) as becoming really, really obese and slow. Yes, I realize that higher constitution doesn't equal weight... at all. But it is just a thought.
Perhaps make him morbidly obese and lower his base land speed until something is done. Include unintended farting and burping (perhaps by a percentile dice) and it's now a bit more risky for him to sneak and steal.
If constitution equals toughness (as per the toughness feat) perhaps he's so tough he literally doesn't feel anything. Not sure how this would be a detriment though.
Demon suggestion works too. Could provide a chance to grow the campaign, having him slowly transform into a demon (perhaps even turning into Glabrezu himself) permanently after some time.
Of course, what I suggested is probably too harsh. Just because you best a demon doesn't mean he has to have repercussions at the moment. Killing a demon might just focus the wrath of other demons.
Spread the love. The character's +1 Con isn't his, it's stolen from his allies. Whoever he touches last before going to bed, loses a point of con over night, while the character gains it. It won't work on NPCs (not companions), only the other characters in his party.
I think twisting the wish because the PC killed the demon immediately after is unfairly punitive; I mean it seems in line with the PCs alignment.
On the other hand twisting the wish because it came from a demon is fair game IMO, since there's no reason the demon wouldn't have tried to twist the wish in the first place.
This.
Don't punish a CN for breaking their word with a demon, punish him for trusting the demon to keep it's word. It's a demon, it would have placed some little nasty inside the wish from moment one, regardless of the deal struck.
But on their alignment of CG, they were ok with the rogue making a deal with the demon and allowing it to live? Because that is totally meta-game if they knew he told them that he would betray it... just saying...
I don't think you should twist the wish to punish the player by giving penalties or some such. It's not an extraordinarily requiring wish, and the CG character didn't act out of alignment by killing the demon (and the demon should have seen it coming, being an intelligent, powerful CE entity).
Granting the bonus but in a sinister way seems good. Maybe a (non-PC) relative of his grows sickly (not kill it off, just get -1 con and maybe like, a constant cold). The character should know it's his fault, though the relative need not.
Something in the vein of that.
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The character's increased Constitution comes with a commensurate appetite. He is constantly hungry for food. Over the course of weeks and months his armor and clothes get tighter and tighter. The PC is going to get faaaaat. It has no in game effect, but I bet your PC will hate it forever.
Honestly, keep increasing his constitution to higher and higher amounts. Eat away at his party members constitution, making him feel really bad. Then you got a cool hook to undo the wish!
*Doh, just saw mdt's post
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Just a reminder: in Pathfinder, a +1 inherent bonus to one ability score is one of the default effects of Wish that is supposed to be protected against being perverted. In everyone's rush to find extra ways to retroactively change what the demon's wish did, nobody has mentioned this.
I assume this 1 con let him increase his hit points if so what i'd do is make him enter an uncontroled frenzy (as in +4 str +4 con -2 ac attacks nearest living target) when down to his hit dice in hit points as the demonic vitality goes haywire.
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Here's a shocking suggestion that goes against all the ones that have come before.
Stop being a jerk! Let him keep the bonus without punishment. He did the world a favor by killing a demon.
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Welcome to wishes 101.
First up. Don't go looking for a way to twist it after the fact though as punishment. Twist it up front, or not at all. The glab is dead and the effect is already in play. Twisting a spell after the fact is like saying "Oh... I meant that to be an elemental cold fireball because I didn't know he was immune to fire." If you wouldn't let a player do that to you, hold yourself to the same standard.
I probably would have dealt with it in one of the following ways....
1) The rogue (and party) are now incapable of harming the Glab. Any attempt to attack it or affect it with magic inherently fails. The terms of the wish should have stipulated that. (I can't thin of good phrasing here).
2) If they attacked, the wish would have been retracted. Again, terms and conditions. He looses the benefit. The wish would have stipulated something like "For as long as I live" (with I being the Glab saying the wish).
If you wanted to play up a corrupting aspect, one more subtle thing though (and might potentially be worthwhile, but only if your campaign is set up to allow for this).... Have the rogue set off Detect Evil as evil for a year and a day (or until the demon re-corporates... Do they still re-incarnate if killed out of their plane?). Not just slightly evil, but detects will always pinpoint him. This means that evil detectors in churchs are going to be set off when he walks in. Bar him from any church that isn't evil (or neutral at best) as a reflection of that. Demon actually half wins here because now he's forced to rely on evil people (and give them money for whatever services they need). The beauty here is that this isn't anything to do with twisting a wish and killing a demon though. Regardless of what happened after, he has made an (almost literal) deal with the devil here. That's going to have a cost on your alignment.
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According to the Glabrezu description, "A wish granted by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher's need in the most destructive way possible—although such methods might not be immediately apparent."
"These treacherous demons form from the souls of the treasonous, the false, and the subversive—souls of mortals who, in life, bore false witness or used treachery and deceit to ruin the lives of others."
So twisting the wish is definitely appropriate. Killing the glabrezu has nothing to do with it really, although you might make the case that one way to undo a destructive wish is to kill the glabrezu who granted it.
I'm not saying wishes should be twisted in general, but wishes granted by evil outsiders with a reputation for twisting them, that's another story. Did the player hedge his demands carefully? Make sure you don't actually violate the terms of the extorted wish.
I'm a fan of the constitution being borrowed from another PC; roll randomly each session which PC suffers today. After all, we're talking about a rogue here, the health is obviously stolen. Demons are about injustice, so the punishment should ideally hit someone else than the guilty party.
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Ok, so as per usual my players will be fed to a Tarrasque if they read this post.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Now I'm all for slaying demons but if there was ever a wish that needed to be harshly twisted about this would be the one.
Who's got an extra helping of nasty for me?
Curse of wasting! Every ally in a 30 ft radius must save against Fortitude (suitable DC) or suffer 1 point of CON damage, which "feeds" the PC the granted bonus - multiple allies affected only grant the single bonus point; an ally must save only until the PC has gained the bonus.
Unless the character can obtain a point this way, he loses the granted bonus to CON for a whole 24 hours.This curse can be removed only with a Break Enchantemnt spell at 20th caster level, appropriately worded Wish or Miracle spell.
You deal with demons, you gain demonic boons. It's simple as that.
I like the idea of the constitution bonus doesn't have any negative effects on him, but he just become a big enemy of demons everywhere. Expect scrying and a bad visit in the night.
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I'm a fan of the constitution being borrowed from another PC; roll randomly each session which PC suffers today. After all, we're talking about a rogue here, the health is obviously stolen. Demons are about injustice, so the punishment should ideally hit someone else than the guilty party.
Definitely not a fan of this. The other PCs shouldn't be negatively affected by the Wish, especially without a saving throw.
He gains the increased constitution but to KEEP it he must consume the raw flesh of children he must stangle to death himself. To keep his new empowered vigor amd youthful energy he has to consume it. From the source.
If he goes more than a week without doing so he loses the wish granted con and an additional con point permanently.
He can only get his lost original point back if he atones or strikes up a more permanent and beneficial (to the next demon) deal with another demon.
How does that sound to you?
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To everyone who is saying that twisting the wish is unsuitable and to stop being a jerk.
Please read the descriptor of a Galbrezu:
With its ability to cloak its true form in pleasant illusions, the glabrezu uses its magic to grant wishes to mortal humanoids as a method of rewarding those who succumb to its guile and deceit. A wish granted by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher's need in the most destructive way possible—although such methods might not be immediately apparent. A struggling weaponsmith might wish for fame and skill at his craft, only to find that his best patron is a cruel and sadistic murderer who uses the weapons to further his destructive desires. A lonely man who wishes for a companion might have his wish granted in the form of a lost love returned to “life” as a vampire, and so on—the glabrezu is nothing if not creative in addressing a mortal's desires.
Lots of good ideas so far, few comments
A) demon horns/features I like it, but so would the player, he's been claiming to be a demon for years.
B) Stealing con from other players, good but the rogue is already way more powerful than most in the party.
C) Cannibalism, awesome but it's already been done this campaign via an expanded deck of many things. player was upset he didn't draw the ghoul card.
My favorites at this point are slow polymorph into an oxen and pseudo demonic possession.
Wait, the character is a chaotic good char that longs to be a cannibalistic ghoul (note that cannibalism is evil in pathfinder) and generally claims to be a demon?
It would be interesting to see what his "good" qualities are. I see a lot of chaotic and a slight bent of evil, so what is his good qualities? Is he a champion of some good cause? Does he care a lot for his friends and family (in this case consider a relative getting sick to give him his con)?
I wouldn't polymorf him into an oxen, but he might start sharing some traits with them - such as mostly eating raw grass. It's very different from cannibalism.
Have him continue to gain constitution...because everything he eats causes him to immediately gain weight.
He continues to get hardier and hardier, thicker and thicker, heavier and heavier. Not necessarily fat, but just...thick!
He loses Dex more and more, loses his ability to stealth, to be light on his feet. Clothes and armor begin to fit poorly, then not at all.
Until the group fixes the whole issue through a fun side-quest!
Never trust a big Glabrezu and a smile!
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I've always be partial to the notion that Demons don't actually die, their corporeal form is disincorporated, and they are sent back to the Abyss. Now for the demon this is a two fold issue, first you need to spend an frustrating amount of time forming a new body while being mocked and tortured for your failure (possibly devolving into a lesser demon) and the second is that getting to the material plane is a pain in the butt without a wizard to gate you in.
So in a few months say, and a negligent wizard later, that same Glabrezu, and his friends can come and exact some revenge, starting the PCs parents, siblings, lovers, progeny, favourite minstrel etc.
He doesn't need to a twist a wish, he needs to twist the PC until he wishes it to stop, and then twist the life out of him.
As a DM you can go so far and so sinister as to literally interpret any time the player says "I wish" in even a modicum of in character as a call to the Glabrezu. Woe be to the hero who attempts to cross the abyss, they will soon find their crossing falls short, and the fall endless.
MUWUHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA
*cough* something in my throat there.
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I'm a fan of the constitution being borrowed from another PC; roll randomly each session which PC suffers today. After all, we're talking about a rogue here, the health is obviously stolen. Demons are about injustice, so the punishment should ideally hit someone else than the guilty party.Definitely not a fan of this. The other PCs shouldn't be negatively affected by the Wish, especially without a saving throw.
It's unjust to steal from other players to benefit the rogue. The rogue gains the benefits, others pay the price; unfair. And that's precisely what a glabrezu would do; glabrezu are demons of selfishness and treason. Injustice is the goal.
It also fits a rogue nicely; he gains power by theft. However, his theft of life may cause others to abandon him. Then he needs to seek out new party members/dupes/victims. It'll nudge him in the direction of Chaotic Evil, and eventually ending up in the Abyss as demon food or new demon candidate. A perfect outcome for a glabrezu.
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That said, you have a point that doing this without a saving throw isn't very neat game-wise. So perhaps the following:
* Beginning of every game session/in-game day, all party members other than the rogue save vs. Fortitude (Wish DC).
* If anyone fails, the PC that failed the most is at -1 constitution and the rogue at +1 constitution for that session/day.
* If no-one fails, the rogue doesn't get a constitution bonus that session/day.
The bonus irony of this is that the PC most likely to fail a fortitude check probably needs constitution the most; it's Stealing From The Poor, which helps the demons promote injustice.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish.
He said the rest of the party was mostly CG.
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Is the Glab actually dead-dead or just banished-dead?
From what it sounds like, the PC may have decided to enlist to replace the Glab with his breaking of his promise in order to gain power. I would definately start them down that path. Let them keep the CON, it's a down payment on their future eternity as a part of the ecology of the Abyss.
If anything, you could rule that if they are under the effects of a protection from evil or similar, it would suppress the CON bonus.
Just a few thoughts for you :)
-TimD
I think that a +1 constitution is a fair reward for besting a wish granting demon. After all, they'll need it now that they got the attention of demon kind.
Thing is, he didn't "best" the agreement. He deliberately betrayed it. The agreement was for him to spare the demon. Then he went against that agreement once the contract stipulations were met. I believe he does "deserve" the con increase, with the suggestions for change of appearance being fully appropriate for actions taken. He wants to act like a demon, let him look like one and be treated as one for a while.
I know of one Inquisitor who would like to have a few terse words with a diabolist like the rogue in question.
"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. "
Wait, the character is a chaotic good char that longs to be a cannibalistic ghoul (note that cannibalism is evil in pathfinder) and generally claims to be a demon?
It would be interesting to see what his "good" qualities are. I see a lot of chaotic and a slight bent of evil, so what is his good qualities? Is he a champion of some good cause? Does he care a lot for his friends and family (in this case consider a relative getting sick to give him his con)?
I wouldn't polymorf him into an oxen, but he might start sharing some traits with them - such as mostly eating raw grass. It's very different from cannibalism.
Chaotic Good seems to be the new munchkin alignment of choice, replacing Chaotic Neutral.
For those who haven' figured it out yet, Chaotic Good does NOT mean "open license on however I decide to interpret the pursuit of good".
Now it's been noted that he was CN but just to further this... I think it can be perfectly acceptable for a CG character to not shy from cannibalism, or to make himself out to be a demon. HOWEVER, I do assume such a character has other strong good traits - I think it's okay even for a lawful good character to have a few chaotic evil traits, as long as they aren't dominating his character. A character that is caring for the poor, loving of his friends and family to a degree where it's ready to die for them, and a champion of freedom and against tyranny could also have a selfish bent, not care at all for the well-being of the dead, and still be CG. It's just that the good has to be far more dominant than the evil.
Knowing what these traits are is very useful to give suggestions to good twists of the wish.
I don't follow the general opinion that wishes should be "twisted".
There are other ways to exact revenge upon a character who performs an evil act. It's not necessary to somehow go back in time and alter the execution of a wish.
Find some other way to resolve the situation that makes sense in game without being an obvious GM fiat revenge activity.
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Unless I'm missing something, how exactly could the Glabrezu twist the Wish as punishment for being killed when he's dead?
The Glabrezu offered a Wish, the Rogue accepted and got the Wish; then the Rogue killed the Glabrezu. I could totally see the wish being twisted if the demon KNEW he was immediately gonna get betrayed, but unless they can read minds now, he wouldn't.
To me, it kinda seems like the Rogue properly one-up'd the demon and got away with it, unless there's some way to retroactively alter a Wish that doesn't invoke Rule 0 (because then you might just come off as sour because the player was clever).
For those that want to pick nits, unless there was a stipulation on how long the rogue would keep him alive, he hasn't broken any contract.
There isn't anything wrong with just making the wish twisted from the beginning, but the fact that the rogue killed him afterwards should have no bearing on it.
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Slowly turn him into a Hobgoblin. This'll improve his CON +2 (and DEX +2), making the wish seem to be exactly what the PC wanted - and more! Unfortunately, it will also remove any other racial bonuses, skill points, etc. the character may have had from being his original race.
His CON is increased, and the Demon turns him into a Chaotic Humanoid that will be attacked on sight in any civilized area.
Hell, let him keep his other Racial bonuses as well. The "attack on sight" property is twisty enough IMO.
Though he probably has a good Disguise skill as a Rogue.