I acknowledged any real racism,
The one thing you chose to actually call out as racism wasn't actually racist.
So there's that.
...some mistake a lack of asskissing for prejudice.....
Really? I haven't seen that. What I have seen is someone mistake disgust (at a raging case of white privilege entitlement) for ass-kissing.
Wahhh...you don't get the inside track to a well-paid blue-collar job just because you're a white male any more? You actually have get an education and compete? And surprise -- you can't compete, because the global economy doesn't need high school wash outs who can't do @#$@#% algebra.
I guess I'd feel threatened, too.
The best part is...there is nothing anyone can do about it. It doesn't matter who wins this election -- or the next. The demographics are irrefutable. By sometime between 2040 and 2050, white people won't be the majority in the United States. Like it or not, America is getting darker, and the politics of coded racism and white privilege are living on borrowed time. You can either learn to quit looking for scapegoats, or you can be left behind to be consumed by your impotent rage. The choice is yours.
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...some mistake a lack of asskissing for prejudice.....Really? I haven't seen that. What I have seen is someone mistake disgust (at a raging case of white privilege entitlement) for ass-kissing.
Wahhh...you don't get the inside track to a well-paid blue-collar job just because you're a white male any more? You actually have get an education and compete? And surprise -- you can't compete, because the global economy doesn't need high school wash outs who can't do @#$@#% algebra.
I guess I'd feel threatened, too.
The best part is...there is nothing anyone can do about it. It doesn't matter who wins this election -- or the next. The demographics are irrefutable. By sometime between 2040 and 2050, white people won't be the majority in the United States. Like it or not, America is getting darker, and the politics of coded racism and white privilege are living on borrowed time. You can either learn to quit looking for scapegoats, or you can be left behind to be consumed by your impotent rage. The choice is yours.
Suppose then that dropping affirmative action and blatant favoring of anything but a white man will happen soon? Course not, only the imagined privilege of being white must be destroyed. THAT is part of the racism on your side, that anything else should be given more because somehow all whites have it too good and america will not be better off until they have it much worse. Whites do not need to be the majority, but to pretend that it is somehow better for the country to have much fewer white, thereby blaming all of our problems on white, is racist.
Impotent rage it is.
Suppose then that dropping affirmative action and blatant favoring of anything but a white man will happen soon?
Affirmative action is being reviewed by the current session of the Supreme Court.
Course not, only the imagined privilege of being white must be destroyed.
Only a white man - however deluded - could believe that the privilege of being white is imagined.
THAT is part of the racism on your side, that anything else should be given more because somehow all whites have it too good and america will not be better off until they have it much worse.
Once again, you have demonstrated an utter failure on your part to internalize what racism means. This is both remarkable and troubling.
Whites do not need to be the majority, but to pretend that it is somehow better for the country to have much fewer white, thereby blaming all of our problems on white, is racist.
It's not better that the country have fewer white people. It's better that the country provide a more equal opportunity for all its people, regardless of race. Unfortunately, entrenched social institutions and centuries of racism of all kinds have resulted in what is obvious to everyone but the most willfully ignorant: if you are born white, chances are you start out with a significant advantage over those born into many other ethnic groups.
It's not clear whether you actually believe what you are saying (which means you were probably lied to by someone you trust, and never developed the critical thought necessary to question those lies), or you are simply willfully deluding yourself (in which case you deserve reproach from all of us), but one of the two is true. There are no other explanations for your behavior.
Impotent rage it is.How horrid it is that i want a colorblind nation with nothing given and nothing taken just for your color
We want that, too. Thing is, you can't get there by turning a blind eye to the racism that DOES exist and serves to artificially separate us all.
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Suppose then that dropping affirmative action and blatant favoring of anything but a white man will happen soon?Affirmative action is being reviewed by the current session of the Supreme Court.
My understanding is that after a quota-based affirmative action systems was ruled unconstitutional, the U of T implemented rules saying they would accept the top 10% of every graduating Texan high school class.
This still wasn't enough to gain acceptance for Ms. Fisher, who was so traumatized by her not being accepted into U of T that she went off to LSU for four years and never (as far as I can tell) attempted to transfer back to U of T.
I'm not really a fan of affirmative action because it is far, far short of what is desperately needed (free, quality higher education for all!), but with the majority of blacks worse off economically than they were during the Civil Rights Movement, I can't greet this news with any kind of joy.
And, why are blacks worse off than they used to be? Well, imho, there's the white backlash, of course, but there's also the mass hemorrhaging of union jobs, which, I hazard to guess, did more to raise the living standards of the black population than all of the Great Society programs combined.
The relationship between working-class whites and blacks, unfortunately, has rarely lived up to the rhetoric that we commies like to use ("Black, Latino, Asian, White/Same struggle, same fight!"), but I can't share in the gloating over the loss of the position of the "white" working class because, as America's permanent last hired, first fired underclass, working-class and poor blacks have been hit twice as hard.
See, it's all just a matter of opinion, subject closed.
On an unrelated note, Could I have a donut, Irontruth? I have the feeling you may just have come into a surplus.
Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?
Your view seems to be that racism just isn't a big enough deal to justify doing anything about it.
How can you possibly even consider that sane, much less reasonable? What crazy bubble do you live in where the most heinous offenses you see committed are against straight white men?
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How horrid it is that i want a colorblind nation with nothing given and nothing taken just for your color
No Andrew, what is "horrid" is that you actually seem to believe that is what you're asking for. :(
I'm not really a fan of affirmative action because it is far, far short of what is desperately needed (free, quality higher education for all!), but with the majority of blacks worse off economically than they were during the Civil Rights Movement, I can't greet this news with any kind of joy.
I don't like it any more than you do. I was just pointing it out as a counter to the bonkers idea that affirmative action will never be challenged.
Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?
No, be because your view of racism is the same as someone like Rush Limbaugh.
It'd be nice if race didn't matter in this country. But it does and whites are, on the whole, advantaged, particularly when compared to blacks. I understand you can't see that right now.
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Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?No, be because your view of racism is the same as someone like Rush Limbaugh.
It'd be nice if race didn't matter in this country. But it does and whites are, on the whole, advantaged, particularly when compared to blacks. I understand you can't see that right now.
I understand that if myself and a similarly if not less qualified minority want a job or spot in a school they WILL get it over me. What is my advantage again? Yes there are more rich whites than minorities but what inherent advantage does the average poor white have over the average minority? Over the upper middle class and wealthy black?
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Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?Your view seems to be that racism just isn't a big enough deal to justify doing anything about it.
How can you possibly even consider that sane, much less reasonable? What crazy bubble do you live in where the most heinous offenses you see committed are against straight white men?
Racism is a real problem. "his ancestors had it too hard and yours had it too easy" doesn't justify harming me to help him, especially when my "privileged" ancestors where dirt poor immigrants that got here not long ago. YOU are ok with the suffering of one group that "had it too good" im against ANY group suffering, especially with the blessing of the law. Not that the bad happening to whites and men are worse, just that they are equal and yes we DO deserve equal protection not "whitey had it coming"
I understand that if myself and a similarly if not less qualified minority want a job or spot in a school they WILL get it over me. What is my advantage again? Yes there are more rich whites than minorities but what inherent advantage does the average poor white have over the average minority? Over the upper middle class and wealthy black?Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?No, be because your view of racism is the same as someone like Rush Limbaugh.
It'd be nice if race didn't matter in this country. But it does and whites are, on the whole, advantaged, particularly when compared to blacks. I understand you can't see that right now.
That must be a personal problem, because statistics show that whites with criminal records are more likely to be hired than blacks with no criminal record.
Blacks also have a higher rate of unemployment, which also shows you are wrong.
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That must be a personal problem, because statistics show that whites with criminal records are more likely to be hired than blacks with no criminal record.I understand that if myself and a similarly if not less qualified minority want a job or spot in a school they WILL get it over me. What is my advantage again? Yes there are more rich whites than minorities but what inherent advantage does the average poor white have over the average minority? Over the upper middle class and wealthy black?Aww because i don't buy YOUR view of the whole thing?No, be because your view of racism is the same as someone like Rush Limbaugh.
It'd be nice if race didn't matter in this country. But it does and whites are, on the whole, advantaged, particularly when compared to blacks. I understand you can't see that right now.
Except for jobs and schools worried about the perception of "diversity". And I would love to see the statistics that show equally qualified criminal whites vs non-criminal minorities getting jobs
White offenders got call backs and job offers 12.9%.
Black non-offenders go called back or offered the job less than 10% of the time.
im against ANY group suffering,
Then suck it up. Racial minorities, especially the hispanic and black minorities, overwhelmingly start off worse than the average white person, and overwhelmingly are afforded fewer opportunities for upward social mobility, while at the same time being exposed to countless enticing avenues for downward social mobility, from a very young age.
Those are the groups that are suffering the most, and that's why we balance the odds a little for them.
Grow some humanity.
Private Bradley Manning...
What PVT Manning did was wrong, stupid, and without a doubt severely hurt US interests abroad as well as at home. That said the charges he lays out supposedly happened at a marine institution and will be investigated. If they bear out those involved will be disciplined. And don't for a second think this is some civilian slap on the wrist statement. I would rather go through all of basic in a gas chamber than face discipline in the military. That Representitive Issa did the exact same thing recently and nothing will happen to him for it is sad, but such are the benefits of being a congress critter.
Understand also that what Private Manning did was illegal on at least three fronts, and would have been at anytime in US history.
Grow some humanity.
Didn't you hear? Being utterly bereft of compassion is the new liberty. Why do you hate freedom? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!?
Private Bradley Manning...What PVT Manning did was wrong, stupid, and without a doubt severely hurt US interests abroad as well as at home. That said the charges he lays out supposedly happened at a marine institution and will be investigated. If they bear out those involved will be disciplined. And don't for a second think this is some civilian slap on the wrist statement. I would rather go through all of basic in a gas chamber than face discipline in the military. That Representitive Issa did the exact same thing recently and nothing will happen to him for it is sad, but such are the benefits of being a congress critter.
Understand also that what Private Manning did was illegal on at least three fronts, and would have been at anytime in US history.
If he did what he's accused of doing, I can only salute his heroism.
Private Bradley Manning...What PVT Manning did was wrong, stupid, and without a doubt severely hurt US interests abroad as well as at home. That said the charges he lays out supposedly happened at a marine institution and will be investigated. If they bear out those involved will be disciplined. And don't for a second think this is some civilian slap on the wrist statement. I would rather go through all of basic in a gas chamber than face discipline in the military. That Representitive Issa did the exact same thing recently and nothing will happen to him for it is sad, but such are the benefits of being a congress critter.
Understand also that what Private Manning did was illegal on at least three fronts, and would have been at anytime in US history.
The same things were said about Daniel Ellsberg at the time he leaked the Pentagon Papers. The fact that these actions are considered illegal has nothing to do with the morality of them. Ellsberg himself is a staunch supporter of Bradley Manning in this case.
Also, don't forget the fact that, despite our disagreement on how to frame Manning's actions, this is not the only problem concerning this whole mess. The guy has been kept under pre-trial confinement for more than 800 days. Of those, about 11 months he was kept on "suicide watch" despite all recommendations from psychiatrists that he should be removed. The UN special rapporteur on torture pointed out the inhumane treatment he was submitted to. The prosecution apparently refused to present data to the defense in order for it to build its case, including information concerning his confinement conditions. The president declared that Manning broke the law even before the trial. His Support Netweork has been persecuted and investigated in secret, something that was eventually learned by means of a FOIA. So, you see, calling his actions illegal considering all this circus is not really meaningful.
I still like Citizen--no, Comrade!--Thiago's thread, but I wish it was more about police repression of leftists under Obama like it used to be.
Blaming Obama for the actions of local police is a bit of stretch.
Though the DHS has indeed coordinated with local police during the OWS protests. If i understand correctly this is a federal agency, right?
One cannot count the good things that happened during Obama's government as his personal achievements and discount the bad ones by saying that they are not his fault. No one thinks he specifically orders most of this crap. The problem is that the kind of climate that has been created by his policies ends up including these kinds of actions into the realm of what is politically acceptable.
Private Bradley Manning...What PVT Manning did was wrong, stupid, and without a doubt severely hurt US interests abroad as well as at home. That said the charges he lays out supposedly happened at a marine institution and will be investigated. If they bear out those involved will be disciplined. And don't for a second think this is some civilian slap on the wrist statement. I would rather go through all of basic in a gas chamber than face discipline in the military. That Representitive Issa did the exact same thing recently and nothing will happen to him for it is sad, but such are the benefits of being a congress critter.
Understand also that what Private Manning did was illegal on at least three fronts, and would have been at anytime in US history.
If he did what he's accused of doing, I can only salute his heroism.
hnn. An interesting and devisive topic, that. I know little of it.
Also, I'm no fan of affirmative action if it's going to be quota based. That's just as bad as hiring tokens that will b fired as soon as they at no longer needed.
Affirmative action is an attempt to correct systemic problems in the acceptance of applicants. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, where someone one day was like "hey, we should change hiring practices for no apparent reason.". Racism is still a problem in this country.
I was referring to the Comrade's link. I don't think DHS had anything to do with that. There's certainly no mention in that article.
Oops, sorry, I read back a few posts now and realized that! My mistake.
I was talking about the general issue, more than about that specific story.
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Also, I'm no fan of affirmative action if it's going to be quota based. That's just as bad as hiring tokens that will b fired as soon as they at no longer needed.Affirmative action is always going to be quota based on some level. If only because that's the only thing you can look at to enforce it. When someone or some group sues for discrimination, unless the company has been dumb enough to put "We won't hire you because you are X" in writing, you're going to have to analyze hiring patterns and promotion patterns.
It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) as blatant as "You must hire x% minorities", but if you've got someone alleging discrimination and you haven't hired any, or only a tiny percentage of your workforce, then you're going to have a hard time fighting it.
Yeah, screw you if you only hire the best, you need it to be dark enough at any cost.
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im against ANY group suffering,Then suck it up. Racial minorities, especially the hispanic and black minorities, overwhelmingly start off worse than the average white person, and overwhelmingly are afforded fewer opportunities for upward social mobility, while at the same time being exposed to countless enticing avenues for downward social mobility, from a very young age.
Those are the groups that are suffering the most, and that's why we balance the odds a little for them.
Grow some humanity.
You want to give to one, you take from another. sometimes another that needs it just as much. screw your sick version of humanity.
Guys, don't listen to the reasonable man behind the curtain.
Many interesting subthreads are sparked from people arguing with Citizen R.
Also,
Vive le Galt!
Why are you guys even trying? Nothing is going to change him.
Because, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, I can't quite shake the belief that everyone can learn.
The irony does not escape me. ;-)
Why are you guys even trying? Nothing is going to change him.Because, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, I can't quite shake the belief that everyone can learn.
The irony does not escape me. ;-)
we can all learn. We can't all necessarily agree with one another.
You want to give to one, you take from another. sometimes another that needs it just as much. screw your sick version of humanity.im against ANY group suffering,Then suck it up. Racial minorities, especially the hispanic and black minorities, overwhelmingly start off worse than the average white person, and overwhelmingly are afforded fewer opportunities for upward social mobility, while at the same time being exposed to countless enticing avenues for downward social mobility, from a very young age.
Those are the groups that are suffering the most, and that's why we balance the odds a little for them.
Grow some humanity.
So.. It's only bad if you aren't gaining from it? I'm not getting anything from this post except angry grumbling. Give us an actual situation to work with. Also, you did not respond to the earlier evidence to asked for.
Yeah, screw you if you only hire the best, you need it to be dark enough at any cost.Also, I'm no fan of affirmative action if it's going to be quota based. That's just as bad as hiring tokens that will b fired as soon as they at no longer needed.Affirmative action is always going to be quota based on some level. If only because that's the only thing you can look at to enforce it. When someone or some group sues for discrimination, unless the company has been dumb enough to put "We won't hire you because you are X" in writing, you're going to have to analyze hiring patterns and promotion patterns.
It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) as blatant as "You must hire x% minorities", but if you've got someone alleging discrimination and you haven't hired any, or only a tiny percentage of your workforce, then you're going to have a hard time fighting it.
The problem with this assertion is that everyone says they hire only the best. There isn't a company that says they hire the second best or anything even close. It's hiring trends that need to be examined, yes, but forcing diversity through quotas isn't the way to go. I would prefer a rating system that lets all interested parties know how diverse the company is at a glance so that others can determine fo themselves to what extent they want to get involved with them.
You want to give to one, you take from another. sometimes another that needs it just as much. screw your sick version of humanity.im against ANY group suffering,Then suck it up. Racial minorities, especially the hispanic and black minorities, overwhelmingly start off worse than the average white person, and overwhelmingly are afforded fewer opportunities for upward social mobility, while at the same time being exposed to countless enticing avenues for downward social mobility, from a very young age.
Those are the groups that are suffering the most, and that's why we balance the odds a little for them.
Grow some humanity.
And your version, where white offenders are more likely to get jobs than black non-offenders is a better version of humanity?
we can all learn. We can't all necessarily agree with one another.
There is disagreeing, and then there is being obtuse -- pretending there is no difference doesn't help anyone.
All snark aside, yes. There are are several companies that are mostly one ethnicity, but can and and do hire others. There are those that prefer to keep things uniracial. As a consume, it's up to me who I patronize, and I talk with my money. And yes, I support non discriminatory laws, which is why I would want a rating system - - as a consumer, it's next to impossible to know who is breaking or skirting around these laws without some type of rating system as people rarely proclaim their bigotry, bias or what have you - - they may not even know what they are doing if they are a truly gigantic megacorp. I would prefer the government do the raring with an appeals process in place run by a third company. As most people talk with their money, I don't think it would be a meaningless pr exercise - even bigots don't like to be seen as bigots nowadays, tak a look at those Golden Dawn idiots.
Yeah, screw you if you only hire the best, you need it to be dark enough at any cost.The problem with this assertion is that everyone says they hire only the best. There isn't a company that says they hire the second best or anything even close. It's hiring trends that need to be examined, yes, but forcing diversity through quotas isn't the way to go. I would prefer a rating system that lets all interested parties know how diverse the company is at a glance so that others can determine fo themselves to what extent they want to get involved with them.Oh good, now we can find out who the good white companies are, so that we can support them. </snark>
Leaving quotas aside for the moment, do you support non-discrimination employment laws? Should it be okay to have an explicit policy against hiring blacks or against hiring women as management? Sure, if the corner store discriminates it might not be a big deal, but what if it's the biggest employer in the country? Do we just handle this with a rating system or do we put legal teeth behind non-discrimination? If so, how?
And if you want a rating system, who does the ratings? The government? Private companies, paid by the employers? Can companies appeal a rating? How do we keep it from either being bogged down in litigation all the time or just being a PR exercise with no meaning?
<aside>That's also far from the only problem with that assertion. The implicit assumption that being "dark enough" comes at a cost and means you don't hire the best is worse.
Private businesses are almost entirely exempt from affirmative action style laws. So people who are opposed to affirmative action and in the same breath talk about private businesses, are complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
It's like people who talk about voter ID laws and how that will solve voter fraud.
but but but but There may be as many as 10 people who commit voter fraud! PER YEAR! ZOMG.
In other news, good article that pretty much confirms my suspicion that our rulers and our media are psychopaths. Link